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[PlayofSparta]

Myth of the clean Wehrmacht - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

War crimes of the Wehrmacht - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

During World War II, the German Army (Wehrmacht) committed extreme war crimes in Eastern Europe. Examples being: Rape, Murder, Helping the SS kill jews. Considering this, do you think that in 1945 the whole German Army should have been considered a criminal institution?

 

[SJRB]

Your logic only works if every member of the entire military committed those acts, which I'm pretty sure is not the case.

 

[PlayofSparta]

Your logic only works if every member of the entire military committed those acts, which I'm pretty sure is not the case.

Well, several people in the Waffen-SS did not committed any war crimes. Even so, the whole SS (Allgemeine, Waffen and Totenkopfverbände) was made a criminal organization.

 

[The Cockatrice]

You either listened to orders or you were shot to death. The leaders and those who acted on their own sure, but the whole army? Dunno. History tends to generalize things. I doubt the whole army were psychos.

 

[PlayofSparta]

You either listened to orders or you were shot to death. The leaders and those who acted on their own sure, but the whole army? Dunno. History tends to generalize things. I doubt the whole army were psychos.

Nope. The historian in the first video talks about a panzer division leader that refused to shoot jews and other civilians and nothing happened to him. Those orders are ilegal in any war.

 

[Zathalus]

The Wehrmacht was indeed complicit in a large number of war crimes. Does that mean every single member was a terrible human being? Of course not. Does it mean the institution was horrible to the core and that the defence of 'I was only following orders' doesn't hold up? You bet it does.

 

[The Cockatrice]

Nope. The historian in the first video talks about a panzer division leader that refused to shoot jews and other civilians and nothing happened to him. Those orders are ilegal in any war.

There are things even historians cant possibly know and what exactly happened. Im sure there were exceptions. Very rarely are humans absolute evil.

 

[Cyberpunkd]

During World War II, the German Army (Wehrmacht) committed extreme war crimes in Eastern Europe. Examples being: Rape, Murder, Helping the SS kill jews. Considering this, do you think that in 1945 the whole German Army should have been considered a criminal institution?

Check how many German generals helped build NATO after the war.

 

[SJRB]

Well, several people in the Waffen-SS did not committed any war crimes. Even so, the whole SS (Allgemeine, Waffen and Totenkopfverbände) was made a criminal organization.

Again, if you want to criminalize an entire army for committing crimes you should criminalize literally every army that has ever marched the Earth.

The Red Army did heinous things on their way to Berlin. But this is not exclusive to WWII. Unspeakable things happened in Korea, Cambodia, Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan. And that is just last century. The list is endless.

Should we criminalize the entire US army because of what happened in Iraq?

 

[EviLore]

Ze Germans paid for the crimes they committed against humanity, in blood. The country was reduced to rubble. Most of the fighting men were killed. The women were raped en masse by the Soviets. War crimes tribunals were held and officers and leaders were hunted down to the ends of the earth. Germany was split in two by the Cold War.

It's done. Assigning further blame accomplishes nothing.

 

[winjer]

There is one branch, that is often forgotten. The police.
It was the police that was very often in charge of rounding up people in occupied countries, be it to purge opposition, to gather slave labour or to gather the "undesirable" for the concentration camps. This was called "Polizeiaktion"
Often, these were German police men, but sometimes also police officers from their own countries.
These regular policeman, were armed and shipped into Eastern Europe, working behind the lines and killing thousands of people. After that, they returned to Germany as if nothing happened.

 

[jason10mm]

Ze Germans paid for the crimes they committed against humanity, in blood. The country was reduced to rubble. Most of the fighting men were killed. The women were raped en masse by the Soviets. War crimes tribunals were held and officers and leaders were hunted down to the ends of the earth. Germany was split in two by the Cold War.

It's done. Assigning further blame accomplishes nothing.

It is a very decisive moment in history. Plus we STILL see folks walking around now with Nazi stuff on, or WW2 german symbols in general, and the need to NEVER REPEAT is strong.

If we had folks over here romanticizing/praising WW2 Japan and their actions across asia I think you'd see a similar response.

I think Germany and Japan are good models for how a country can recognize their past, work to correct it (as much as you can), and strive to never repeat it. But like anything, humans need periodic reminders lest they fall back into destructive ways and the german/japanese cultures lend themselves, I think, to being turned into industrial killing machines. One can argue that "the America Way" is falling (has fallen) into a similar pattern, just on a more diffuse and drawn out scale.

And even more unfortunately, I think it will just take the next BIG WAR to get us all (the survivors, anyway) to move past WW2, just like The Great War (aka WW1) seemed insurmountable until something larger came along.

 

[Aesius]

Ze Germans paid for the crimes they committed against humanity, in blood. The country was reduced to rubble. Most of the fighting men were killed. The women were raped en masse by the Soviets. War crimes tribunals were held and officers and leaders were hunted down to the ends of the earth. Germany was split in two by the Cold War.

It's done. Assigning further blame accomplishes nothing.

Worst of all: they will forever be known as the country that loves David Hasselhoff.

 

[kurisu_1974]

History is written by the winners. Pretty sure there were war crimes on both sides. And those atom bombs should have been a criminal act too if you think about it.

 

[PlayofSparta]

Ze Germans paid for the crimes they committed against humanity, in blood. The country was reduced to rubble. Most of the fighting men were killed. The women were raped en masse by the Soviets. War crimes tribunals were held and officers and leaders were hunted down to the ends of the earth. Germany was split in two by the Cold War.

It's done. Assigning further blame accomplishes nothing.

True, true. But History is a topic always good to revisit.

History is written by the winners. Pretty sure there were war crimes on both sides. And those atom bombs should have been a criminal act too if you think about it.

No...? In 1947-1955 the entire point of view of the US and UK on the war against the Soviet Union came from the German Generals that would talk about battles and leave the dirt (crimes and mentality) away on the reports.

This is German porn:

Spoiler

This is History:

Spoiler

 

[kurisu_1974]

No...? In 1947-1955 the entire point of view of the US and UK on the war against the Soviet Union came from the German Generals that would talk about battles and leave the dirt (crimes and mentality) away on the reports.

Yeah it is not 1955.

 

[EviLore]

And even more unfortunately, I think it will just take the next BIG WAR to get us all (the survivors, anyway) to move past WW2, just like The Great War (aka WW1) seemed insurmountable until something larger came along.

Hopefully we keep talking about WW2 for a very long time then.

 

[PlayofSparta]

Hopefully we keep talking about WW2 for a very long time then.

I would be okay with that. WW1 was horrendously for the military but WW2 was ten times worse for the civilians. For more that I admit to like the battles, or adaptations (even freakin COD) it's always something to have in mind that WW3 would be the last for humanity.

 

[FeralEcho]

To everyone who says....oh but if they did not do that they would be shot...If the army was trully against such acts they would have rebelled. Remember,there are more soldiers than commanders. But as with the orcs in the russian army, plenty of german soldiers loved the excuse of being allowed to be terrible people to other people under the pretext of " well they would've shot me otherwise".

This quote from King Baldwin IV fits quite well in the context of such people in such a situation:

"A King may move a man, a father may claim a son, but remember that even when those who move you be Kings, or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone.

When you stand before God, you cannot say: But I was told by others to do thus. Or that, Virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice."

So yes they alone are accountable for their actions.

 

[newtypepilot]

I think Germany and Japan are good models for how a country can recognize their past, work to correct it (as much as you can), and strive to never repeat it.

Japan still denies the atrocities it committed in China and Korea.

 

[pachura]

History is written by the winners. Pretty sure there were war crimes on both sides.

The firebombing of Dresden, for example

 

[RJMacready73]

Ze Germans paid for the crimes they committed against humanity, in blood. The country was reduced to rubble. Most of the fighting men were killed. The women were raped en masse by the Soviets. War crimes tribunals were held and officers and leaders were hunted down to the ends of the earth. Germany was split in two by the Cold War.

It's done. Assigning further blame accomplishes nothing.

So much this, Germans paid for it... What did the Japanese do? And in a few years what do you think the Russians will do? Do you think they'll ever atone for their crimes against humanity, will they fuck, they'll deny everything right into the grave whereas the Germans acknowledged it, apologised for it and by fuck they paid for it

 

[PlayofSparta]

To everyone who says....oh but if they did not do that they would be shot...If the army was trully against such acts they would have rebelled. Remember,there are more soldiers than commanders. But as with the orcs in the russian army, plenty of german soldiers loved the excuse of being allowed to be terrible people to other people under the pretext of " well they would've shot me otherwise".

This quote from King Baldwin IV fits quite well in the context of such people in such a situation:

"A King may move a man, a father may claim a son, but remember that even when those who move you be Kings, or men of power, your soul is in your keeping alone.

When you stand before God, you cannot say: But I was told by others to do thus. Or that, Virtue was not convenient at the time." This will not suffice."

So yes they alone are accountable for their actions.

While I mostly agree, there's a point I would like to make:

There were three major people in the Army that wanted to kill Hitler. But the motivation differs:

Günther von Kluge (ex-Field Marshal) -> After D-Day and Bagration, he wanted to make peace with the Western Allies and focus the war on Russia;
Henning von Tresckow (General) -> Saw first hand the horror in the East and considered Hitler the Devil;
Claus von Stauffenberg (Colonel) -> Motivation is a mix of the two above.

The 20 July plot failed, but let's look in Kluge and Tresckow:

Kluge: On 29 June, 1941, Kluge ordered that women in uniform were to be shot, in line with the Nazi ideological worldview. It considered female combatants to be yet another manifestation of "barbaric" Bolshevism where natural gender roles were upended.
Tresckow: As Chief of Staff of the 2nd Army, Tresckow signed an order on 28 June 1944 carrying out a plan originally conceived by Himmler, to abduct supposedly unaccompanied Polish and Ukrainian children. Between 40,000 and 50,000 Polish and Ukrainian children aged 10 to 14 were kidnapped for Nazi Germany's forced labour programme.

So yeah, there was a "rebellion". The motivation is apart from what movies tell us, tho.

 

[BlackTron]

Ze Germans paid for the crimes they committed against humanity, in blood. The country was reduced to rubble. Most of the fighting men were killed. The women were raped en masse by the Soviets. War crimes tribunals were held and officers and leaders were hunted down to the ends of the earth. Germany was split in two by the Cold War.

It's done. Assigning further blame accomplishes nothing.

Unfortunately Russia was rewarded for their low standards with uncompromised victory and never felt the need to humble themselves as Germany had, culminating in where we are today.

 

[MisterFalcon]

History is written by the winners. Pretty sure there were war crimes on both sides. And those atom bombs should have been a criminal act too if you think about it.

In the case of WW2 Germany, history was written by the losers. An endless stream of German generals writing about how everything was Hitler's fault, they had no idea millions were gassed and they could have beaten the Slavic untermensch hordes with a little more time.

 

[EviLore]

So much this, Germans paid for it... What did the Japanese do? And in a few years what do you think the Russians will do? Do you think they'll ever atone for their crimes against humanity, will they fuck, they'll deny everything right into the grave whereas the Germans acknowledged it, apologised for it and by fuck they paid for it

Japan's scales were not balanced compared with the colossal amount of death and suffering they inflicted on Asia, no. But they were nuked twice and Tokyo was firebombed. They lost their national identity and dignity and were occupied by the Americans, had a pacifist constitution written for them, and went through hard times in the postwar era. Japan was in a collective mania in the imperial era. That is no longer the case at all and they're not a threat to the world -- maybe a threat to my wallet with all the cool stuff they make.

Humanity was at its worst in the 20th century despite believing ourselves to be enlightened and modern. Ideologies like fascism, communism, hyper-nationalism, colonialism were ruinous. The greater the access humans have to power, the more harm tends to be caused.

It's a relief that business cooperation has prevailed over murder and conquest so far in the 21st century, Russia aside. But we're only one bad ideology away from doing it again with 100x the firepower.

 

[PlayofSparta]

I believe the Red Army war crimes were mostly put down by Beria, Zhukov and Stalin that wanted to mantain some form of prestige, discipline, and avoid hate by the new Soviet Puppet States. And when I say "put down" I say hide. The true number is higher.

 

[winjer]

There is one major character in early XX century history, that often goes ignored. Erich von Ludendorff.
This guy served under Paul von Hindenburg and when he replace Falkenhayn, Erich von Ludendorff became quartermaster general for the whole of Germany.
He transformed the German society into a war economy, a dictatorship where everything was made for the German Heer. For a while, he probaly had more power than Hindenburg or even the Kaiser.
Not only that, but when Germany defeated Russia and signed the treaty of Brest-Litovsk, Ludendorff made plans to map the ethnic Germans and non-Germans in the newly occupied territories, with the plan of expanding Germany for Germans.
If this sounds like the Lebensraum that Hitler later wrote about, it's probably because it is.

After the war ended, he became instrumental in spreading the myth that Germany lost because it was backstabbed.
When Hitler was on the rise in German politics, Ludendorff was right next to him. Including during the Bavarian putsch. Hitler and other Nazi were arrested, but Ludendorff being a high ranking member of the army, was spared.
Ludendorff was very influential with Hitler and his militaristic ideas, very likely influencing a good chunk of Mein Kampf.

But it's not just with Nazi Germany that Ludendorff had a strong influence. Even before WW1 he was a prominent military writer, who advocated that the civil society should be subservient to the army.
That civilians should make goods so that the army could have the power and strength to fight and conquer it's neighbours.
This was very influential in the view that many military officers had in Japan during the 20's and 30's.
We usually call it Imperial Japan, but during WW1, most of he power was held by the military. Namely the navy and the army, who in turn hated each other.
This is why, even today, Japan's society have a very strong suspicion regarding their own military. They already had a military dictatorship, and it went very bad for the civilians.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

Wehrmacht is not the army, they are called "Heeres". Wehrmacht is the entire armed forces including Waffen SS, Luftwaffa and Kriegsmarine. It amazes me how many people don't know this. Probably getting their WW2 history from Hogan's Heroes.

 

[PlayofSparta]

Wehrmacht is not the army, they are called "Heeres". Wehrmacht is the entire armed forces including Waffen SS, Luftwaffa and Kriegsmarine. It amazes me how many people don't know this. Probably getting their WW2 history from Hogan's Heroes.

What a stupid and dull commentary. For instance, 3rd SS Totenkopfdivision composition was 20%-40% made of SS KL guards, they are part of the paramilitary force of the SS, not the regular army. Since I gather information from this thing you quoted, put your sources then for so much idiosyncratic behavior. I will put mine:

Jr., Charles W. Sydnor (Updated Edition). Soldiers of Destruction: The SS Death's Head Division, 1933–1945. Princeton University Press.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Wehrmacht is not the army, they are called "Heeres". Wehrmacht is the entire armed forces including Waffen SS, Luftwaffa and Kriegsmarine. It amazes me how many people don't know this. Probably getting their WW2 history from Hogan's Heroes.

And the entire Wehrmacht was fighting to give the ones shoving people into gas chambers more time to keep going. Even some random guy turning knobs on a height finding device of an AA battery helped prolong the war and allow the Nazis to kill more helpless victims.

 

[IDKFA]

And the entire Wehrmacht was fighting to give the ones shoving people into gas chambers more time to keep going. Even some random guy turning knobs on a height finding device of an AA battery helped prolong the war and allow the Nazis to kill more helpless victims.

Not exactly true. Not every German military personal and civilian was aware of the full extent of the holocaust.

 

[MisterFalcon]

Not exactly true. Not every German military personal and civilian was aware of the full extent of the holocaust.

It cannot have escaped even the dumbest soldier stationed in occupied territory that they took an awful lot of land for what was supposed to be a defensive war against the Judeo-Bolshevist agressors. Or how all the Jews had vanished from their towns.
And of course they will deny this afterward. All the foreign fighters captured fighting for ISIS also claim they no idea too what was going on there.

 

[Men_in_Boxes]

If you clicked on this thread and haven't watched Downfall, Das Boot: Directors Cut, and Generation War, you should. Three movies from the German perspective of WWII.

 

[Johnny2Bad]

What a stupid and dull commentary. For instance, 3rd SS Totenkopfdivision composition was 20%-40% made of SS KL guards, they are part of the paramilitary force of the SS, not the regular army. Since I gather information from this thing you quoted, put your sources then for so much idiosyncratic behavior. I will put mine:

Jr., Charles W. Sydnor (Updated Edition). Soldiers of Destruction: The SS Death's Head Division, 1933–1945. Princeton University Press.

What the fuck are you blathering about? My "commentary" isn't even about the subject matter of this thread. I was merely pointing out that the word "Wehrmacht" is not the correct term for the regular army. It's your brain that's stupid and dull. Were you drunk when you posted this?

As for the subject matter of this thread, the regular army were certainly guilty of atrocities. But of course you only need to consider who their boss was.

 

[Tal Shiar Agent]

The Wehrmacht was indeed complicit in a large number of war crimes. Does that mean every single member was a terrible human being? Of course not. Does it mean the institution was horrible to the core and that the defence of 'I was only following orders' doesn't hold up? You bet it does.

Hey look, the correct answer.

The myth of the Clean Wehrmacht was invented by the Allies in the immediate aftermath of WWII after they realized they couldn't just dismantle the German military wholesale with the Soviets right there.

 

[winjer]

 

[Gp1]

It was in the Allies interest for Wehrmacht to have a clean slate after the WW2. But the institution as a whole committed many war crimes, especially against POWs in the eastern front.

(these kind of videos shows how brutal the Eastern front was. The eastern European countries were ravaged by Germany than by USSR. Eastern Poland changed hand 3 or 4 times during the war.

Another video in the same vein on why it was interesting to maintain some of these myths after WW2 (at least for a time)

 

[IDKFA]

What a stupid and dull commentary. For instance, 3rd SS Totenkopfdivision composition was 20%-40% made of SS KL guards, they are part of the paramilitary force of the SS, not the regular army. Since I gather information from this thing you quoted, put your sources then for so much idiosyncratic behavior. I will put mine:

Jr., Charles W. Sydnor (Updated Edition). Soldiers of Destruction: The SS Death's Head Division, 1933–1945. Princeton University Press.

Calm yourself. History debates should be fun. No need to get aggressive.

I like that you've posted a source to back up your argument, but without the specific page numbers it's going to be difficult to try and pinpoint your evidence.

Do you have the primary source that Sydnor is drawing from? That would probably be more helpful with this topic.

It cannot have escaped even the dumbest soldier stationed in occupied territory that they took an awful lot of land for what was supposed to be a defensive war against the Judeo-Bolshevist agressors. Or how all the Jews had vanished from their towns.
And of course they will deny this afterward. All the foreign fighters captured fighting for ISIS also claim they no idea too what was going on there.

If we're talking about the holocaust and the millions killed in camps, not every German military personal would have been aware of the full scale of the horrors because the Nazi regime deliberately compartmentalized information. Many individuals were only aware of specific aspects of the persecution, such as the early boycotts, emigration policies, or concentration camps. The extermination camps and the "Final Solution" were top-secret operations with limited knowledge.

While not everyone had complete knowledge, many Germans were aware of discriminatory policies and violence against Jews and Slavic people. After the war, debates arose over whether this constituted "collective guilt" or if individuals could be held accountable for actions they may not have fully understood. Debates that we're still having to this day.

I have a fascinating book by German historian Florian Huber called Promise Me You'll Shoot Yourself . It's powerful and disturbing exploration of a little-known aspect of the aftermath of World War II with the mass suicides of ordinary Germans in 1945.

As well as drawing on primary accounts such as letters and diaries (some of which are very disturbing) the book also explores how the initial euphoria and pride associated with Hitler's rise to power gave way to despair and disillusionment as the war turned against Germany, as well as the sense of collective guilt and responsibility felt by many Germans for the atrocities committed by the Nazi regime.

Recommended read, but certainly not a book for the faint of heart.