Hotline Miami 2's implied rape scene probes limits of player morality; authors react

Status
Not open for further replies.
Murder is accepted and even normal in most games because of the safety of the context provided within them. When you're playing a criminal, a soldier following orders, or a good character charged with the task of eliminating bad guys, it's all okay for most people to accept. We watch film and television that regularly has made violence a core element of its storytelling and entertainment value for many decades since WWII. People are generally fine with that. What we don't do is watch rape or simulated rape because there's never a reason for it in the context of a game. What reason is there for rape being displayed so upfront? Why make the player complicit to such an act and witness something that has nothing to do with their goals? Games and literature/film are different enough that it should be necessary to understand that reading about or viewing something is different from playing something that makes you a direct part of the experience. Does it matter if murder is worse than rape when one is given context and the other isn't and, on top, does not fit with our sensibilities? No one's going out and wasting people like a video games unless you're some kind of messed up individual to begin with, but do we need a reason to witness or imply the act of rape when there's simply no game-value for it? Murder in games is a more abstract act that fits within a well-understood and familiar theme seen in literature and film and even gaming prior to video games. Rape has no value in entertainment such as gaming.

But the context is this guy is a psycho criminal who does anything and everything evil to others, right? I mean are we talking about the context of who the main character is and what the developers want you to feel towards that character or not? If the context is there, why is there absolutely no place ever in gaming for rape specifically but other violent acts that earn a criminal more jail time are completely ok?

They want you to hate this character, but since many gamers are completely desensitized to brutal violence, the developers had to take a different tact in order to have those gamers hate the character.
 
Murder is accepted and even normal in most games because of the safety of the context provided within them. When you're playing a criminal, a soldier following orders, or a good character charged with the task of eliminating bad guys, it's all okay for most people to accept. We watch film and television that regularly has made violence a core element of its storytelling and entertainment value for many decades since WWII. People are generally fine with that. What we don't do is watch rape or simulated rape because there's never a reason for it in the context of a game. What reason is there for rape being displayed so upfront? Why make the player complicit to such an act and witness something that has nothing to do with their goals? Games and literature/film are different enough that it should be necessary to understand that reading about or viewing something is different from playing something that makes you a direct part of the experience. Does it matter if murder is worse than rape when one is given context and the other isn't and, on top, does not fit with our sensibilities? No one's going out and wasting people like a video games unless you're some kind of messed up individual to begin with, but do we need a reason to witness or imply the act of rape when there's simply no game-value for it? Murder in games is a more abstract act that fits within a well-understood and familiar theme seen in literature and film and even gaming prior to video games. Rape has no value in entertainment such as gaming.

Precisely.
 
Some of these developers take things too far.

I'm all for freedom of expression, but if you have the talent and resources to build a great game and a wonderful universe, why bring something so ugly and controversial to the mix? Are they so imaginatively bankrupt that they have to incorporate something as obscenely unnecessary as rape? Now every green-eyed politician and lobbyist will come out of the woodwork to put the industry back under a microscope and fuck things up for everyone because some attention-starved developer thought it was cool to add some bullshit to their game.

nope.
 
I hate rape in any medium because I am faint hearted even though I know, sadly, the offence happens in real world. However, I don't see why Movies, and books and even Animes have to explore the subject while we patronise gaming and get offended by it when it happens in games.
Thank you.

If you want games to mature then you have to allow it to mature in every aspect, not just the ones you think it should mature in. Rape is not a pleasant subject but it is a mature and deep subject that should be explored in games as it has been in every other medium throughout history. To stop that is to stop the growth of your favorite hobby.
 
Ultra violence is part of Hotline Miami's whole schtick.

You can represent it just fine in Clockwork Orange but in a videogame it's too taboo? Silly.
 
Given the game, I'm not surprised nor do I think it's outside the scope of its brutality. I didn't last long in the first because of its gore and violence.

I guess I'm glad people are as unsettled as I was? It's nice to have company anyway.

Things you do in the first game should make people unsettled to begin with. A little faux-rape scene is apparently too much and totally crosses the line.
 
As intended right?



Get the ugly and controversial out of my psycho killer game.

Funny that no one paid attention when this material first surfaced months ago.

There's some justification to killing somone or something, in the real world and in video games. Rape has no justification other than being a sick F. If developers want to cater to sick fucks, then that's their right, I suppose. I just don't want to see another Hot Coffee incident with other developers and publishers having their legitimately creative games share some of this ugly spotlight by the generalizing media and public.
 
Thing is, whereas violence is justified in certain situation, rape is never justifiable. It's just plain wrong. It can certainly be featured in games, as in Far Cry 3, but you'd have to be extremely careful with letting the player carry out the action. It's a bit like No Russian, except in that case Infinity Ward sort of pulled it off.
 
I thought they were wonderful.
Part of why it's my GOTY 2012, one of the few games in recent years where i actually felt something while playing, that wasn't simple "fun".

I get what they were going for, that all that wasn't supposed to be entertaining necessarily, but it didn't really do much for me either way.

I think the part where it's all 16-bit or whatever kinda desensitizes me to a lot of it.
 
Murder, rape, etc. It's all fiction. In this case, it's even fiction within the fiction (two actors in a movie inside the game). People can find it repugnant, sure, but let's be fair: I'm sure some loathed the wanton bloodshed of the original, as well.

Me? I loved Hotline Miami. My #3 GOTY 2012. Yet I wouldn't hurt a fly in real-life. I'm all about mercy. And I'm most definitely not about rape. But this is fiction, where you play a monster. Like 90 percent of videogames, including the upcoming GTAV.
 
Would it be more socially acceptable if the player character were to rape a man?

It would be comedic in that case. Male on male rape is rarely taken seriously for some odd reason.

Also Hotline Miami is such a violent game I do wonder how a rape crosses the line.
 
There's some justification to killing somone or something, in the real world and in video games. Rape has no justification other than being a sick F. If developers want to cater to sick fucks, then that's their right, I suppose. I just don't want to see another Hot Coffee incident with other developers and publishers having their legitimately creative games share some of this ugly spotlight by the generalizing media and public.

That's the point he's a sick fuck.
 
I think people need to have a basic understanding of the game before they speak. There's a whole lot of misinformed people saying that there's absolutely no reason to include it in this game series as if they're an authority on what this game series is attempting to accomplish but then their post makes it obvious that they've never played this series.
 
I don't understand how people can let this pass in other mediums but I should feel angered about a video game displaying this shit. Rape is not ok and a real issue but how can the medium grow if the creator has to censer themselves from every person hoping on a soap box?
 
This movie talk is funny. People constantly complain about games trying to be movies and then argue that they should be seen in the same light as movies. Can't have your cake and eat it guys.
 
There's some justification to killing somone or something, in the real world and in video games. Rape has no justification other than being a sick F. If developers want to cater to sick fucks, then that's their right, I suppose. I just don't want to see another Hot Coffee incident where other developers and publishers having their legitimately creative games share some of this ugly spotlight by the generalizing media and public.
What the hell am I reading? You have very screwed up view of violence.

Want me to blow your mind? Your existence is very likely a result of someone raping someone at some point of time.
 
What we don't do is watch rape or simulated rape because there's never a reason for it in the context of a game. What reason is there for rape being displayed so upfront? Why make the player complicit to such an act and witness something that has nothing to do with their goals?

It's about world and character building. It's about shock value.
 
Murder is accepted and even normal in most games because of the safety of the context provided within them. When you're playing a criminal, a soldier following orders, or a good character charged with the task of eliminating bad guys, it's all okay for most people to accept. We watch film and television that regularly has made violence a core element of its storytelling and entertainment value for many decades since WWII. People are generally fine with that. What we don't do is watch rape or simulated rape because there's never a reason for it in the context of a game. What reason is there for rape being displayed so upfront? Why make the player complicit to such an act and witness something that has nothing to do with their goals? Games and literature/film are different enough that it should be necessary to understand that reading about or viewing something is different from playing something that makes you a direct part of the experience. Does it matter if murder is worse than rape when one is given context and the other isn't and, on top, does not fit with our sensibilities? No one's going out and wasting people like a video games unless you're some kind of messed up individual to begin with, but do we need a reason to witness or imply the act of rape when there's simply no game-value for it? Murder in games is a more abstract act that fits within a well-understood and familiar theme seen in literature and film and even gaming prior to video games. Rape has no value in entertainment such as gaming.

Well from the article it says that the game takes control away from the player when the rape occurs.

There's some justification to killing somone or something, in the real world and in video games. Rape has no justification other than being a sick F. If developers want to cater to sick fucks, then that's their right, I suppose. I just don't want to see another Hot Coffee incident with other developers and publishers having their legitimately creative games share some of this ugly spotlight by the generalizing media and public.

What irreparable damage did the Hot Coffee bring about?
 
It was acted for a movie. I dont get the fuss about it.

Americans are strange. Acting all like "Exploded heads are okay.But nude females and rape is not acceptable even if it shown as being wrong."

Dont take the scene out of context. We dont know what happens there so are the ones who shouldnt judge about it.
 
I hate rape in any medium because I am faint hearted even though I know, sadly, the offence happens in real world. However, I don't see why Movies, and books and even Animes have to explore the subject while we patronise gaming and get offended by it when it happens in games.

Rape gets called out in any medium when it's used as a shitty plot device, see Mark Millar, I Spit on Your Grave, etc.
 
Would it be more socially acceptable if the player character were to rape a man?
I suspect it would largely fly under the radar, like the implications of the shower scene in Mafia 2. Male on male rape is like female on male domestic violence, it's as if we fear that treating it with the appropriate gravity may somehow diminish the sympathy we feel for traditional victims.
 
Cot damn, this game is grimy. I couldn't even keep watching the video snippet because the combination of the visuals and music was just too damn creepy.

I think it's odd that she can "love" the game overall, but that one scene, especially since it's supposed to be a movie, could offend her that much.
 
I don't know why people are comparing rape with murder in games. Killing is part of the gameplay mechanics, and a way to progress further in most videogames. The enemies are trying to kill you, and you try to kill them. It's as simple as that.

Rape has no connection to the game's mechanics, nor does it contribute to the enjoyment of the game. It's probably there to be shocking, and grab people's attention. In tv and movies, rape usually creates motivation for the main character or adds to the narrative etc. In Hotline miami there is barely a story and mostly gameplay, so a rape scene really seems to have no good reason to exist.

The scene has the same justification as the killing of enemies: To progress the game. "Here, go do this terrible thing that, for some reason, you find more terrible than the host of other terrible things you are doing in this game (one of which is arguably more terrible), or we won't let you get to level 6." Oh God this is disgusting ."BUT WAIT, we pulled the rug out from you. You actually didn't have to do it, that was a scene for a movie with actors acting."

And there's the kicker. For Hotline Miami 2, read: TWO, the only way to get that creepy uncomfortable feeling of Hotline Miami 1 back was to push the envelope. Already within the series people will have become desensitized to murder, even those who felt uncomfortable with the first game. Hell, read the article in the OP; the beginning of it is dedicated to how much they've expanded your arsenal and made it more detailed as if that's a good thing, and acceptable. But now every time you kill an enemy you're thinking about why that "implied rape which didn't even happen" scene was more uncomfortable than anything you've done so far. Unless you just see Hotline Miami as an A to B mechanics experience which, unfortunately, a lot will because of the nature of the medium.

In the end, if you're squirming and leaving the game uncomfortable and unsure about your feelings on the whole thing, I think Hotline Miami has done its job.
 
It's not even interactive though. Some of the stuff the main character in the first game does to NPCs is fucking gruesome when 'I' probably would have left them alone. You're not the character outside of the playable elements. Shit, you're not even them during the playable bits unless you're a psycho fuck in real life. It's an experience.
 
Game about depicting disturbing violence manages to disturb someone through depicted violence. Fantastic. Can't wait to play it, loved the first game.
 
As expected, I think I've seen maybe three posters in this topic who actually get the point of Hotline Miami, everyone else is yelling at each other with "rape happens to men and women", "but murder's ok, right?" and "it's only a game guys, jeez."

Hotline Miami is a game that's supposed to gross you out, it's supposed to make you feel uncomfortable, and frankly, if the rape scene sickens you, good. It means you're a well adjusted human being who is having their emotions played with the way the game means to.
 
Ugh, so tired of 'so violent murders are OK, but rape crosses the line?'

It's a valid point, but it has been made 1.7 billion times before. So unless you're genuinely expecting for the whole of society to wake up one day with an entirely new point of view, please begin looking at the world how it is, not how it ought to be. You all understand full well how and why a rape scene in a game could stir the pot.

In my opinion, this is just another growing pain in the process of games becoming mainstream. Seems like lots of people still don't get that AAA games are the equivalent to summer blockbusters, while there's still a whole world of indie directors out there. When a movie has a tasteless rape scene, I think the majority of those offended simply write it off as garbage and move on with their lives. When it happens in a game there's still that element of GTA-esque 'interactive rape simulator!' outrage.
 
Rape gets called out in any medium when it's used as a shitty plot device, see Mark Millar, I Spit on Your Grave, etc.

This is true. It's a horrible plot device if it's used just to shock.

And did I just see someone defend rape by saying it's part of a feminist agenda?
 
What the hell am I reading?

Want me to blow your mind? Your existence is very likely a result of someone raping someone at some point of time.

....Just to be clear, this is your response to the statement that "rape has no justification"? So you're arguing that the poster's existence makes whatever rape happened in the poster's ancestral past justified?
 
So is rape worse than murder?

For the victim, yes. They have to spend the rest of their lives dealing with the fall out.

For the victim's friends and family, presumably not.

I think the point is that people who have been murdered can't play this game, but people who have been raped can.

Hotline Miami is a fantastic game. I don't know how I feel about this. It will rattle some cages that's for sure.
 
I can get why the author could have felt uneasy during this scene (but wasn't that the point ?), but i don't see why she had to go on a tangent about "betrayal" and Anita Sarkeesian.
 
The thing about rape scenes is that they need to be done with extreme care. It's incredibly easy to make them a mere throw away plot device, a male power fantasy, or a male sexual fantasy. We live in a world where rape is a real, daily threat to millions of women (yes, especially women). It's different than murder in that murder is not a gendered crime. Rape is a gendered crime, because it's primarily acted upon women. The goal is to psychologically put women "in their place". To subjugate them. To disempower them. To violate them and break them down. It's a weapon used primarily by men and primarily against women to reinforce patriarchy.

This thread totally disgusts me. How some of you can defend this shit is so beyond my understanding. And it's clear that many of you don't take it seriously. That's a problem. We need to take rape seriously.

That may be the case for many rapes, buy im fairly sure innsome cases the intent is metely to 'have sex' sometimes men are raped by other men too, but much less i will agree, but then he number if honosexual males compared to heterosexual is substantially less too, rape also occurs with women to men, again in a much less noyable figure buy it does happen - no male power fantasys there.

I would hazard a guess that rape is facilitated primarily by the design of the human body, not to be all out disgusting but a man can force a woman into sex, but in most cases a woman could not force a man into sex, either because its harder to force a man to be erect, harder to overpower a man (most womens muscle structure is generally weaker) and, well, unless said guy is a decent fellow (getting rarer each day) if a woman tried to force herself upon a guy he would probably just go along with it.

with that out the way though, i feel that peoppe put too much emphasis on morality in what is generally a fictional medium, if we tiptoe around the issues at hand where do we draw the line, at what point donwe decide a certain level of violence is okay? or do we end ip like the UK health and saftey problem where what was once okay to do on tv is now banned because 'it mighy be dangerous'

We can tackle the matter better i agree, but the answer isnt to shy away from such issues. its a fine line indeed, a fine line between upsetting a minority and limiting the freedom of creation on a very large scale.

If saying feminism is a minority offends you, ou can blame my signicant other, she read about this topic and her exact response was 'wow its only a game people need to shut up'
 
You can represent it just fine in Clockwork Orange but in a videogame it's too taboo? Silly.
How is this an argument? There are numerous and expansive critiques of problematic rape scenes in all media, and definitely including Clockwork Orange.
 
I feel like framing this scene as a movie, in a game, is a lot like when Eminem rapped as Triumph the Insult Comic Dog and said:

"Psych I joke, I joke, I keed, I keed!
If I offend, I'm sorry, please please forgive
For I am Triumph the Puppet Dog, I am a mere puppet
I can get away anything I say and you will love it!"
 
The whole murder vs rape thing requires some objectivity.

You cannoy objectively say that murder is more OK than rape.
You are just desensitized to it so it doesn't shock you as much. And you're not desensitized to rape. That's it.

If someone grows up in a some secluded society without media that focuses on, or uses violence all the time, the video games and movies we see today would probably be a huge shock to that person.

And the arguement that says "Well that murder/violence is more detached from reality while the rape is more real" doesn't really make sense.

We see videos of shooting, killing, in real life (think war videos), explicity shown in movies and in video games. A lot more people have been in altercations or have seen live altercations than have been raped. I can guarantee you that.


TL;DR...? I't about desensitivity.
The thing is, the first time a saw it a gruesome murder in movie, it freaked me out. (Stuff like SAW still isn't my thing anyway). It was because I wasn't desensitized to it. There is no inherent thing about rape that makes it worse than murder. If I had seen a rape scene or murder scenes at that age, the murder scenes would have shocked me far far worse. We're not detached, we're just used to violence.
 
It's not even interactive though. Some of the stuff the main character in the first game does to NPCs is fucking gruesome when 'I' probably would have left then alone. You're not the character outside of the playable elements.
I found it interesting that the most gruesome deaths in the first game took place when you had no control over the character.
 
MW2 had a mission where you murdered hundreds of civilians and that was also "okay"

I don't think you remember the reaction to that as well as you think you do.

In fact I think this whole thread is having collective amnesia of how long it took people to widely accept "realistic violence" in games.

because if they did remember that, I don't think they'd be demanding someone to just accept rape in games so quickly and easily. Especially when it's targeted at the only character they can identify with in the game.

Hypocritical or not, I could not rape a game character ever, I would just quit the game there.

Yeah I agree completely.

Doesn't matter how it's justified. That's just not what I personally want out of a gaming experience.

I'll stick to mechanically dense games with lighter subject matter.
 
But the context is this guy is a psycho criminal who does anything and everything evil to others, right? I mean are we talking about the context of who the main character is and what the developers want you to feel towards that character or not? If the context is there, why is there absolutely no place ever in gaming for rape specifically but other violent acts that earn a criminal more jail time are completely ok?

They want you to hate this character, but since many gamers are completely desensitized to brutal violence, the developers had to take a different tact in order to have those gamers hate the character.
I see what you're saying, but what if the player doesn't care about the act of rape being committed? What if others start to employ such a strategy of instilling a sense of hate for this character due to rape being included more often? I'd like to see this in the game via footage, but I find the shock value of it to be a cheap shot when included in my entertainment experience, IMO. Yes, this is the same experience where I ruthlessly murder thugs and killers. There's a line for me just as there is for many if not most. My thing is that I don't care for reading/hearing/watching anything to do with act because of my own personal sensitivity to it. I personally cannot see any reason to ever include rape in game situation.
 
I really can't imagine how truly exhausting it must be to live as one of these people who gets so profoundly hurt, shaken to their core, by every offensive thing (or, rather, the one offensive thing they have a personal agenda about).
 
....Just to be clear, this is your response to the statement that "rape has no justification"? So you're arguing that the poster's existence makes whatever rape happened in the poster's ancestral past justified?

No I'm not justifying anything. Poster said that killing is sometimes justified in real life which is fucked up. I'm arguing that rape happens and has always happened in real life and shouldn't be some sick taboo subject to never be handled in video games like killing.

You can understand it the wrong way if you want tho.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom