Hotline Miami 2's implied rape scene probes limits of player morality; authors react
- Thread starter Dawg
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the accusations of feminist agendas, boycotts, and censorship?
that's simple disagreement?
I assume it was a "real" rapist in the context of the game and not an actor playing a rapist?
Watching/playing the scene in context makes the authorial intent perfectly clear. It's purpose is to emphasize how monstrous it is that the director is so nonchalant about both the violence and the rape in the movie scene. It's criticism. It's not encouraging, it's not glorifying, it's not tantalizing. It's less graphic, comparatively, than the elements of violence in the game. It doesn't linger on the act. More time is spent on three lines of dialog in response to what's happened than the offending act itself.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
Obviously the whole game/work is tasteless. It's the purpose of it. I don't have a huge desire to inhabit that world, but a creative work containing something doesn't mean it necessarily encourages it.
Quod erat demonstrandum.
Obviously the whole game/work is tasteless. It's the purpose of it. I don't have a huge desire to inhabit that world, but a creative work containing something doesn't mean it necessarily encourages it.
Neither those the original, the focus on melee, the twisted reality, the amoral protagonist, lack of music at the end of the level, making you backtrack and contemplate the carnage, the short anticlimactic bossfights.
The game does it's best to take away your pleasure from it.
Not only is it okay, I think that's the point. It casts all the *positive* emotional reactions you've been having in the game - for doing more and more similarly reprehensible acts - up 'til then into sharp relief, and that's absolutely the sort of thing I approve of games being permitted to attempt.
Whether it's successful at achieving that goal is something we'll have to wait for the finished product to see, but I am absolutely going to appluad the devs for trying.
Oh for fucks sake. Read my answer again, carefully, maybe you'll get it this time.
I'm not saying you aren't supposed to be grossed out by fictional depictions of rape. On the contrary.
Backfoggen
Banned
I don't get why people will never understand this.
The scene in question is "whatever" in my current opinion, given it's context, but the "faux outrage" comments are funny because none of you have personally been murdered. People reading this right now have been raped. Battle Raper will never be as acceptable as Mortal Kombat. The (made up for the sake of argument) flash game N*gger Slapper will never be as acceptable as Mobsters was on Facebook, despite, you know, killing a fuckload of people being worse than slapping a black person.
Is it faux outrage if as a person of color I wouldn't want N*gger Slapper on XBL but I want games where I can go as far as to kill people? Would I not have the right to voice my opinion and be upset by the game N*gger Slapper?
If I would have the right to voice my opinion (in the situation more relevant to me) and be upset without it being called "faux outrage" amongst other things, then maybe there is a lot more complexity to the discussion than simply comparing severity of crimes.
Is it faux outrage if as a person of color I wouldn't want N*gger Slapper on XBL but I want games where I can go as far as to kill people? Would I not have the right to voice my opinion and be upset by the game N*gger Slapper?
If I would have the right to voice my opinion (in the situation more relevant to me) and be upset without it being called "faux outrage" amongst other things, then maybe there is a lot more complexity to the discussion than simply comparing severity of crimes.
Oh aren't you clever. You took my quote and then added a gif of people laughing. Aren't you a clever, clever poster.
Ok? all this "a game needs to be deep" to enjoy it bullshit that popped up this gen is lame as shit. It's perfectly clear what they were trying to do here, and nothing's wrong with juvenility.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
Nobody said it was your biggest shortcoming.
Dark Octave
Banned
So if he blew her head off no big deal. He rapes her and "OMG NOEZ! GONE 2 FAR!! NOTLIKETHIS.GIF"
Another thing, movies do it all the time. Pulp Fiction, Hills Have Eyes, Clockwork Orange and thousands more. If it's part of a gritty story then it's part of the story. Get over the idea that games have to be Nicktoons.
Another thing, movies do it all the time. Pulp Fiction, Hills Have Eyes, Clockwork Orange and thousands more. If it's part of a gritty story then it's part of the story. Get over the idea that games have to be Nicktoons.
you edited your post but it actually makes even less sense now
Yeah, I'm sorry for the title Stumpy. I was thinking about editing some stuff because I kinda made it in a rush, but you were faster than me
I disagree.
I found it very compelling without being pathetically obvious.
Excuse me...
Are you seriously saying that rape is exclusive to women? I'm trying not misread your post, but I'm trying to be clear.
Is that what you're saying?
Notice how I didn't use the word "everybody" and such? There are poorly presented assertions and poor assertions in general in every debate, this one is no different.
Right. The bad ending is on youtube if you're interested. It's not graphic or anything, but the action and result are shown.
Not Spaceghost
Spaceghost
So then it's effective. People who are criticizing this game often tend to forget the point of Hotline Miami is to get the player to question why they are doing this, and if it is okay for them to derive an sense of "fun" from all this violence.
MW2 had a mission where you murdered hundreds of civilians and that was also "okay"
The Horror the horror
Banned
Some of these developers take things too far.
I'm all for freedom of expression, but if you have the talent and resources to build a great game and a wonderful universe, why bring something so ugly and controversial to the mix? Are they so imaginatively bankrupt that they have to incorporate something as obscenely unnecessary as rape? Now every green-eyed politician and lobbyist will come out of the woodwork to put the industry back under a microscope and fuck things up for everyone because some attention-starved developer thought it was cool to add some bullshit to their game.
I'm all for freedom of expression, but if you have the talent and resources to build a great game and a wonderful universe, why bring something so ugly and controversial to the mix? Are they so imaginatively bankrupt that they have to incorporate something as obscenely unnecessary as rape? Now every green-eyed politician and lobbyist will come out of the woodwork to put the industry back under a microscope and fuck things up for everyone because some attention-starved developer thought it was cool to add some bullshit to their game.
Misterinenja
Member
As intended right?
Get the ugly and controversial out of my psycho killer game.
Funny that no one paid attention when this material first surfaced months ago.
toastyToast
Member
A game in which the objective is to rape people is pretty fucked up and I don't really see a good reason for it to exist. There's no way to justify it, it's one of the few things that's wrong under all circumstances. That said, knowing this, the appropriation of the act in media should be enlightening on the nature of the person committing it. In this case, a dude named the fucking Pig Butcher. Plus it's a fakeout anyway. Rape does exist though, let's not act like it doesn't.
Is your biggest shortcoming making assumptions about people you don't know? Or were you just trying to be funny?
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
Yes, why bring something ugly to Hotline Miami, the grimiest, gut-splashingest murderfest of 2012.
i am really, really curious about how this is germane to the discussion
Because ugliness and controversy IS their wonderful universe.
I don't quite understand how the consensual bdsm fantasies written by a woman for a largely female audience tie in to this particular debate?
AngelsDontBurn
Banned
I worked with someone who was male raped, and not in prison. I also knew of someone in my command getting ethered and raped at night by his barracks roommate and he didn't figure it out until going to medical for rectal pain. We need to take rape seriously as well as violence as well as armed robbery as well as cop killing. We should just remove all of those things from video games.
But this idea that rape is only used on women?
CheesecakeRecipe
Stormy Grey
There was a small uprising who criticized it for the power play and the fact that it was an extremely unhealthy relationship. But somehow it managed to capture lightning in a bottle and most of that criticism was drowned out by rampant fangirlism. Though I find that sometimes with a book the message can be missed altogether. My cousin didn't read into it very much and just used it as a vehicle for fantasy.
The best possible GIF to use.
I don't know why people are comparing rape with murder in games. Killing is part of the gameplay mechanics, and a way to progress further in most videogames. The enemies are trying to kill you, and you try to kill them. It's as simple as that.
Rape has no connection to the game's mechanics, nor does it contribute to the enjoyment of the game. It's probably there to be shocking, and grab people's attention. In tv and movies, rape usually creates motivation for the main character or adds to the narrative etc. In Hotline miami there is barely a story and mostly gameplay, so a rape scene really seems to have no good reason to exist.
Rape has no connection to the game's mechanics, nor does it contribute to the enjoyment of the game. It's probably there to be shocking, and grab people's attention. In tv and movies, rape usually creates motivation for the main character or adds to the narrative etc. In Hotline miami there is barely a story and mostly gameplay, so a rape scene really seems to have no good reason to exist.
I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not.. with an Apocalypse Now avatar and username, no less.
What does that has to do with this? And why feminists? Im sure that a lot of people (me included) find rape disturbing over other acts of violence. Stick to youtube arguments.
And what makes you think it won't have any relevance in the game? Even if it means that I hate the protagonist it means I already established q connection with him.
Blue_Barry
Member
Ummmm... what? Are you seriously fucking suggesting, that men cannot be raped by other men/women...
Because the issues and severe consequences of reality are still being introduced to games. Why not have rape in a game if the context supports it? Are you seriously asking for a indie studio to change their game so the indie game rape seeking government won't shut down gaming?
Then try reading again instead of jumping on everyone with a different opinion, and maybe this time read the article I'm responding to. She was enjoying the killing, the drugs and every other aspect of it until that scene, after which she feels betrayed.
but betrayed is the wrong word, because the medium hasn't betrayed her. In fact, Hotline Miami is doing on her now what it sets out to do and maybe she should be questioning why she is enjoying something that is so disgusting as what she has been enjoying until then. Maybe she should feel the game accomplishes something, even if she wants nothing to do with it, the same I way I felt when I watched Irreversible, which is a movie that shakes you terribly and are not supposed to enjoy.
RoninChaos
Member
They don't. Not even slightly.
And for everyone in the thread saying "oh so bashing someone's head in is okay but raping someone isn't?" ... I think you guys have lost what makes a game a game. The key difference is player agency. If you don't want to play a game where you're killing people, then you don't have to. Games and literature are a passive experience. Gaming is not. I don't want to play a game where I'm going to be directly involved with rape. That's disgusting. I choose the games I play. Are some violent? Yes, some are. As I get older I find I get less enjoyment out of things that are visceral however.
I'm also concerned with why the rape is in the game in the first place. This almost feels like the Hotline Miami creators are going further than they did with their "Message" of the first game. This is getting into some entirely different issues.
*EDIT*This is a much more nuanced conversation than just "OH SO YOU KILL PEOPLE IN GAMES BUT NOW RAPE ISN'T OKAY?!"
MightyHedgehog
Member
Murder is accepted and even normal in most games because of the safety of the context provided within them. When you're playing a criminal, a soldier following orders, or a good character charged with the task of eliminating bad guys, it's all okay for most people to accept. We watch film and television that regularly has made violence a core element of its storytelling and entertainment value for many decades since WWII. People are generally fine with that. What we don't do is watch rape or simulated rape because there's never a reason for it in the context of a game. What reason is there for rape being displayed so upfront? Why make the player complicit to such an act and witness something that has nothing to do with their goals? Games and literature/film are different enough that it should be necessary to understand that reading about or viewing something is different from playing something that makes you a direct part of the experience. Does it matter if murder is worse than rape when one is given context and the other isn't and, on top, does not fit with our sensibilities? No one's going out and wasting people like a video games unless you're some kind of messed up individual to begin with, but do we need a reason to witness or imply the act of rape when there's simply no game-value for it? Murder in games is a more abstract act that fits within a well-understood and familiar theme seen in literature and film and even gaming prior to video games. Rape has no value in entertainment such as gaming.
You're embarrassingly out of touch with people's concerns here. A work written by a woman for woman about consensual bdsm fantasy isn't even on the same planet in terms of concern. I think you may have built up a set of strawman criticisms of what feminism is if you think they are.
This is coming from someone who speaks in defense of the game here.
megamerican
Member
This outrage is probably exactly what they wanted. Why else would you put a rape scene prominently in a demo?
Risk Breaker
Member
Or people would consider it a masterpiece *shrug*
faceless007
Member
I haven't played the game so maybe this is entirely true, but I question to what extent this can really be true about a video game that presumably encourages you to keep playing all the way to the end. It's not a passive experience, but interactive, so the medium inherently encourages the player to actively take part unless they just quit.
I mean, if the point of the game is really to get you to think about whether you should be having fun from the violence...what's the point of a sequel that does the same thing? To get the players who weren't sufficiently moved by the first one?
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