Support NeoGAF

[Makoto-Yuki]

i'm pissed that we (not US) have been at war for 20 years and pretty much nothing has been achieved except wasted billions/trillions and thousands of deaths.

the innocent people there who can't escape will be in hell. fuck the taliban. they ain't fooling anyone.

this is an embarrassment not only for the US but the UK, canada, germany, italy, australia, new zealand, etc

 

[Chankoras]

This was always destined for failure.
Little long but interesting watch.

 

[SF Kosmo]

I think it's terrible but inevitable. Our intervention in the area was cynical and incompetent, strengthened and united disparate opposing forces against a common enemy (us), exploited the people, and left nothing to show for it.

It's gonna be a bad time now that we're leaving but it doesn't means staying would have been better. This is just ripping the band-aid off.

 

[SF Kosmo]

I wish Biden would of handled this better. He should of kept the military in place and started getting civilians, contractors, diplomats, and Afghans with strong connections to us out first and all who didnt wish to be under Taliban while the military held Kabul and ensured their safety and then pulled the military out. What sickens me is how we just fucked our allies completely over and had zero plan of egress for them. You would of thought we learned from Saigon. I made a few good friends with Afghans while over there and now it's like, we'll, they are probably dead or will be now.

I think we also need to seriously carpet bomb the hell out of Bagram and deny it to the Taliban. We should of did that the minute the Afgan military surrendered. It's insane to me that we didn't because in both Iraq and Afgan while deployed there, we were constantly hammered by command to deny them anything if we thought we would be captured. We were issued grenades specifically meant to be used to destroy ourselves and our equipment if capture was inevitable. But Biden just hands them a full base. Insane.

We are evacuating a lot of people. I agree we should have given more people Visas and gotten more of them out and the previous administration put up a lot of road blocks that made that very hard.

But I don't think there was any scenario where this looked pretty. It was always going to be sad and messy and the idea that a 20 year blunder would have a happy ending if we just wait a little longer is really a big part of how we got here in the first place.

I do have to wonder where all this concern was when we betrayed our allies in northern Syria because Erdogan called Trump and asked he could murder them please.

 

[FunkMiller]

i'm pissed that we (not US) have been at war for 20 years and pretty much nothing has been achieved except wasted billions/trillions and thousands of deaths.

the innocent people there who can't escape will be in hell. fuck the taliban. they ain't fooling anyone.

this is an embarrassment not only for the US but the UK, canada, germany, italy, australia, new zealand, etc

Absolutely. There was a smug liberal consensus in the western world that we could simply ride in and make these areas of the world like us. Apparently absolutely nothing was learned from Vietnam.

Every single western democracy has played their part in this farce. The US and the UK for the initial invasion, and the rest of NATO and the G7 for their mealy mouthed, hands off 'not our problem jack' attitude ever since.

The shit show in Afghanistan is a symptom of a disease that's infected the west - one of complacency, self indulgence, entitlement and petty squabbling over bullshit like Brexit and identity politics. And we'd better cure that disease before China completely takes over, or climate change destroys us all.

I know we don't talk about politics here, but the truth of the matter is western politics don't matter anymore. It's our entire societal philosophy that needs questioning.

 

[Punished Miku]

Absolutely. There was a smug liberal consensus in the western world that we could simply ride in and make these areas of the world like us. Apparently absolutely nothing was learned from Vietnam.

Every single western democracy has played their part in this farce. The US and the UK for the initial invasion, and the rest of NATO and the G7 for their mealy mouthed, hands off 'not our problem jack' attitude ever since.

The shit show in Afghanistan is a symptom of a disease that's infected the west - one of complacency, self indulgence, entitlement and petty squabbling over bullshit like Brexit and identity politics. And we'd better cure that disease before China completely takes over.

The cherry on top of western self-indulgence and incompetence is the constant inward self-hatred about the west because it's such a racist patriarchy.

Then quietly off to the side in reality, you see desperate and extremely unprivileged Afghans dying to try and get on a plane to come to the US so that women's rights can be preserved in a western, capitalist country.

 

[FunkMiller]

The cherry on top of western self-indulgence and incompetence is the constant inward self-hatred about the west because it's such a racist patriarchy.

Then quietly off to the side in reality, you see desperate and extremely unprivileged Afghans dying to try and get on a plane to come to the US so that women's rights can be preserved in a western, capitalist country.

Yes, yes. Spot on.

The endless social media bleating about how awful the west is - conducted by people who have lived their entire lives in cossetted good fortune and luxury, in the very country they lambast repeatedly. And politicians who play up to this indulged childishness from all sides of the political spectrum for votes.

And with this current situation, the discussion will inevitably devolve into more pointless bickering between Republicans and Democrats, or Tories and Labour, about how the withdrawal could have been handled - because that is oh so much easier than coming to terms with the fact that we're allowing medieval religious nutcases to rape women and butcher children - because none of our leaders have the fucking balls to actually tackle the real problems in our world.

 

[Tschumi]

Komso, Funk, Miku, it's not that I disagree with u guys but I was hoping to keep this stuff centered on the people of Afghanistan. I think so much can be said about the western politics underpinning all of this, going back a century or more, but i think Evilore kept this thread open because i was looking for reflections on the plight of the residents, not recriminations abroad...

i mentioned cricket in my op, it's a bit specific but i think it's instructive.. one of the greatest spinners in world cricket is an Afghan named Rashid Kahn, and god knows what he's gonna do now... The Afghan women's cricket team are just gonna have to give up and go home, it's a real tragedy.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Komso, Funk, Miku, it's not that I disagree with u guys but I was hoping to keep this stuff centered on the people of Afghanistan. I think so much can be said about the western politics underpinning all of this, going back a century or more, but i think Evilore kept this thread open because i was looking for reflections on the plight of the residents, not recriminations abroad...

i mentioned cricket in my op, it's a bit specific but i think it's instructive.. one of the greatest spinners in world cricket is an Afghan named Rashid Kahn, and god knows what he's gonna do now... The Afghan women's cricket team are just gonna have to give up and go home, it's a real tragedy.

I think eventually militias will push back the Taliban in places and Afghanistan will remain fractured as it always has been but it's gonna be a while before anyone fills that void and it's hard to say if those fighting the Taliban will be any better.

By any western standard it's going to be an opressive and regressive regime. It's hard to imagine anything else. Will they be tempered at all by years of war and the increased legitimacy in the international forum? I dunno, maybe... But probably not drastically so.

 

[Punished Miku]

Komso, Funk, Miku, it's not that I disagree with u guys but I was hoping to keep this stuff centered on the people of Afghanistan. I think so much can be said about the western politics underpinning all of this, going back a century or more, but i think Evilore kept this thread open because i was looking for reflections on the plight of the residents, not recriminations abroad...

i mentioned cricket in my op, it's a bit specific but i think it's instructive.. one of the greatest spinners in world cricket is an Afghan named Rashid Kahn, and god knows what he's gonna do now... The Afghan women's cricket team are just gonna have to give up and go home, it's a real tragedy.

That's fine and all. Feel free to acknowledge the stories of Afghans obviously.

Personally though, I think it's largely going to be used as pro-war propaganda. About the only thing that mainstream left and right and media agree on in the US is subservience to the defense industry. They're all in lockstep on this one, and they will find a sad story about every unfortunate Afghan that has good optics, and report that in a sad voice to the west for as long as people listen. It is objectively sad, but I doubt that's why we are hearing about it.

The Afghan cricket team is really not the concern of Americans. That context has to be hammered home at all times if we are to discuss it. The stories are being used to create the narrative that leaving was a mistake, that eternal war is good, that we have a moral obligation to spend more money and lives there after 20 years. On every level, I find that narrative to be a lie and I think people are being really obviously manipulated. Some of the most pro-war reporters on MSNBC in the west are acting like they're almost in tears over this, and it's literally all an act.

The US has literally zero obligation at this point. We spent more than we could have afforded for literally decades. When I hear Afghans on the news saying we have an obligation, I literally disagree. There is no obligation to be there, to spend more than we have, to send more of our people there. If people are actually arguing that outside forces need to be in Afghanistan to protect people, then the entire world should start by just simply saying thank you to the US for all we spent and committed already, then the rest of the world can take it from here. We clearly did way more than our fair share - and 99% of it was only even done because the American people were lied to for 20 years by the generals and the media about the progress and the state of the operation.

The surge failed. Everything failed. We have to pair almost every story about the plight of the Afghans with the message that our involvement there does not help. After 20 years, the Taliban is stronger, richer and more well equipped than ever.

 

[InterMusketeer]

Either a civil war will happen, or the Afghans will have to submit to an extremist Islamic regime. Ultimately it's up to them to do something about it, which they failed to do even with the help of foreign powers.

 

[reksveks]

i mentioned cricket in my op, it's a bit specific but i think it's instructive.. one of the greatest spinners in world cricket is an Afghan named Rashid Kahn, and god knows what he's gonna do now... The Afghan women's cricket team are just gonna have to give up and go home, it's a real tragedy.

I don't want to get too specific but you did have the Iranian judo fighter whom played for the refugee organisation. I hope the ICC does do something similar.

Personally though, I think it's largely going to be used as pro-war propaganda. About the only thing that mainstream left and right and media agree on in the US is subservience to the defense industry.

I don't know how much of it is Pro-War agenda but pro-a better withdrawal plan however there does not seem to be anything that indicates what their plan is. That's a massive flaw as that could be seen with any phase without a fixed end date. I think there is some obligations that's the US have failed to achieve in terms of the translators that the US Congress really fucked up.

There are numb nuts like the following whom contributed to that problem:

 

[Tschumi]

I think eventually militias will push back the Taliban in places and Afghanistan will remain fractured as it always has been but it's gonna be a while before anyone fills that void and it's hard to say if those fighting the Taliban will be any better.

By any western standard it's going to be an opressive and regressive regime. It's hard to imagine anything else. Will they be tempered at all by years of war and the increased legitimacy in the international forum? I dunno, maybe... But probably not drastically so.

I wonder if the region will ever be free of Islamic fundamentalism and phrases like "respect women's rights in the context of Islamic law".. such a clarion clear call that the moment one of them tries to play sport or something all rights are reversed..

That's fine and all. Feel free to acknowledge the stories of Afghans obviously.

Personally though, I think it's largely going to be used as pro-war propaganda. About the only thing that mainstream left and right and media agree on in the US is subservience to the defense industry. They're all in lockstep on this one, and they will find a sad story about every unfortunate Afghan that has good optics, and report that in a sad voice to the west for as long as people listen. It is objectively sad, but I doubt that's why we are hearing about it.

The Afghan cricket team is really not the concern of Americans. That context has to be hammered home at all times if we are to discuss it. The stories are being used to create the narrative that leaving was a mistake, that eternal war is good, that we have a moral obligation to spend more money and lives there after 20 years. On every level, I find that narrative to be a lie and I think people are being really obviously manipulated. Some of the most pro-war reporters on MSNBC in the west are acting like they're almost in tears over this, and it's literally all an act.

The US has literally zero obligation at this point. We spent more than we could have afforded for literally decades. When I hear Afghans on the news saying we have an obligation, I literally disagree. There is no obligation to be there, to spend more than we have, to send more of our people there. If people are actually arguing that outside forces need to be in Afghanistan to protect people, then the entire world should start by just simply saying thank you to the US for all we spent and committed already, then the rest of the world can take it from here. We clearly did way more than our fair share - and 99% of it was only even done because the American people were lied to for 20 years by the generals and the media about the progress and the state of the operation.

The surge failed. Everything failed. We have to pair almost every story about the plight of the Afghans with the message that our involvement there does not help.

I see where you're coming from, thanks for taking the time to make your point.

It's funny, i was recently reading a Tom Clancy book which featured a Mujahideen, written in the 80s, he was presented as a hero forced into combat by the Soviet occupation but going about it in a medieval way that seemed to match him against Hind choppers..

I think this war was just the latest in a string of conflicts which the west waged on the assumption that colonialism remains a viable route to take to neuter troublesome nations.. not so, i deem

(Whoa deja vu...)

 

[Tschumi]

I wanna hear from the one guy who selected the supercheerful option wanna some a dat sweet positive cowbell lol

 

[GamingKaiju]

US+NATO wanted a self reliant, strong nation we went over there built infrastructure, schools and even built them a economy, providing them cash, arms and every fucking opportunity to help themselves we basically built a country and gave it to them, and the Afghan government couldn't even last a few weeks leaving all sorts of goodies behind.

Im hoping the West (US+NATO) don't entertain any more wars in the Middle East they don't respect the sacrifice for rights or enjoy the freedoms that we do and have little intention to fight them.

China would be foolish to entertain the Taliban, they'll get flamed just like the US was.

 

[belmarduk]

Either a civil war will happen, or the Afghans will have to submit to an extremist Islamic regime. Ultimately it's up to them to do something about it, which they failed to do even with the help of foreign powers.

You still have one major pocket of resistance in the Panjshir province. You've got the former Afghani Vice President and son of one of the most successful anti-caliban forms working together and flying the flag of the Northern Alliance (the group which controlled the north of the country during the Taliban's previous rule) I would love for them to thrive and take back their country.. but they will not receive much international help.

 

[Xenon]

Without a substantial middle class there is there is no way you're gonna see anybody fight fight for one government over another. One corrupt leader is as good as the next for poor people, why would they give up their lives for something that would make very little change for themselves. Unfortunately that short term perspective is damning their children to the same fate. I'm not judging them for it.

Also you do have to account for the fact that Western culture is not exactly something a mostly conservative religious country Is going to openly embrace.

 

[nush]

China would be foolish to entertain the Taliban, they'll get flamed just like the US was.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I lost friends over there. I lost friends that came back from there changed.

We spent trillions there. We started it.

Then Sleepy fuckin' Joe ran out of there like a coward in the night. Left behind literal bases full of taxpayer-funded armaments while on the same note his admin is trying to demonize American citizens for legally owning firearms. He left American citizens and Afghans who trusted us out to die.

Fuck this whole thing.


--

On a lighter note:

 

[Jaysen]

Theyve made no secret about how it's going to go.

 

[Alx]

US+NATO wanted a self reliant, strong nation we went over there built infrastructure, schools and even built them a economy, providing them cash, arms and every fucking opportunity to help themselves we basically built a country and gave it to them, and the Afghan government couldn't even last a few weeks leaving all sorts of goodies behind.

Thing is, you don't build a country only by throwing money and resources at it. A country is built around its population, culture and history. If you don't use that as the foundations of your work, all your infrastructure, schools and economy are just an empty shell.
(I started writing "maybe it's something Americans are unfamiliar with", but that's actually wrong since when rebuilding Japan there was a major focus on entertaining the the local culture)

 

[Keihart]

Why exactly did the US Army just left in a hurry without first helping people migrate safely? I can't imagine coordinating something like that being easy, but also seems to me like the obvious thing to do out of decency for the population unless something happened that forced them to leave like that.

 

[Alx]

Why exactly did the US Army just left in a hurry without first helping people migrate safely? I can't imagine coordinating something like that being easy, but also seems to me like the obvious thing to do out of decency for the population unless something happened that forced them to leave like that.

I think nobody expected the Talibans to conquer the country in two weeks. Most predictions I read before were between 2 and 5 months.

 

[oagboghi2]

I don't want to get too specific but you did have the Iranian judo fighter whom played for the refugee organisation. I hope the ICC does do something similar.


I don't know how much of it is Pro-War agenda but pro-a better withdrawal plan however there does not seem to be anything that indicates what their plan is. That's a massive flaw as that could be seen with any phase without a fixed end date. I think there is some obligations that's the US have failed to achieve in terms of the translators that the US Congress really fucked up.

There are numb nuts like the following whom contributed to that problem:

A few weeks ago the president was promising congress the withdrawal would go smoothly, and we would be celebrating on 9/11.

 

[Punished Miku]

Why exactly did the US Army just left in a hurry without first helping people migrate safely? I can't imagine coordinating something like that being easy, but also seems to me like the obvious thing to do out of decency for the population unless something happened that forced them to leave like that.

The previous administration negotiated a peace deal with the Taliban and set the time table for withdrawal. The current administration actually delayed that exit by several months.

The possibilities are:

• Total incompetence across all the top levels of military command (highly unlikely)
• Huge intelligence failure claiming that the Afghan army would hold (possible)
• Purposeful sabotage of the withdrawal to make ending the war look bad, and fund the resurgence of the Taliban with equipment so that we'll be back in the region shortly fighting Al Qaeda 3.0 and making the defense industry more money, fueled by the American people consenting to it after listening to sob stories on the news ... (pretty unlikely!)
• Spoiler

  

 

[QuantumZebra]

Why exactly did the US Army just left in a hurry without first helping people migrate safely? I can't imagine coordinating something like that being easy, but also seems to me like the obvious thing to do out of decency for the population unless something happened that forced them to leave like that.

Because this admin (and many here know I was no fan of Trump either) is abso-fucking-lutely incompetent. Can't handle the border crisis, can't follow-up on campaign promises, and has now haphazardly abandoned our allies and allowed the creation of *heavily* armed terrorist state.

I'm fucking dumbfounded at the incompetence on display. It's mind-numbing.

Afghanistan will be a threat to the world for years to come.

Not to mention Russian/Chinese media is absolutely wrecking us right now and telling the world we abandon our allies... and the worst part is... they're right.

The previous administration negotiated a peace deal with the Taliban and set the time table for withdrawal. The current administration actually delayed that exit by several months.

The possibilities are:

• Total incompetence across all the top levels of military command (highly unlikely)
• Huge intelligence failure claiming that the Afghan army would hold (possible)
• Purposeful sabotage of the withdrawal to make ending the war look bad, and fund the resurgence of the Taliban with equipment so that we'll be back in the region shortly fighting Al Qaeda 3.0 and making the defense industry more money, fueled by the American people consenting to it after listening to sob stories on the news ... (pretty unlikely!)
• Spoiler

  

I totally agreed with exiting the region.

The problem is we did it in the worst fucking way imaginable.

 

[CherryFalls]

Honestly I don't know as much as I should. Ive decided to dedicate time coming up to learn more about our foreign policy and conflict in the middle east so I can have a more informed opinion.

 

[reksveks]

A few weeks ago the president was promising congress the withdrawal would go smoothly, and we would be celebrating on 9/11.

He fucked up and so did the intelligence committee and so did the previous 4 president. US actions in Afghanistan has been a shit show for a while.

There has been some improvements but slowly that's going to get reversed.

 

[Romulus]

Instead of 70 virgins in heaven, they'll have thousands on earth.

 

[QuantumZebra]

Instead of 70 virgins in heaven, they'll have thousands on earth.

My heart hurts for what they're going to do to those poor girls. Them not getting to go to school is just the beginning of the horror.

The worst part is... many of them are too young to remember the oppression that their mothers and sisters faced.

 

[Punished Miku]

I totally agreed with exiting the region.

The problem is we did it in the worst fucking way imaginable.

I'm not in the military so I'm asking sincerely. Would an administration even be that involved in planning the logistics of a withdrawal? I always assumed at the presidential level you'd basically give the order to withdraw, and then the joint chiefs and about 20 layers of military would work out how to actually get that done.

Who do you think actually failed if it was publicly known for over a year that we're leaving? Previous administration, current administration, the generals, all of the above?

 

[The Lunch Legend]

We've been there 20 years, spent over two trillion dollars and still the Afghanistan Government and Military still won't stand up and defend it's country. We should have left a long time ago, imo.

The Russians (and many other armies over the centuries) tried "devastating" force in Afghanistan and they gave up and left. The Western world can't seem to understand that we aren't going to change the Islamic culture. Yes, we can send an army to Afghanistan to kill terrorists, and those troops may make it possible for girls to go to school, but as soon as our troops leave then it goes back to the way it was before.

Why, because that's the way they have been taught their whole life by their Islamic leaders. The Afghan army was never going to defend a government that promoted women's rights any more than white nationalists in the US would fight for a government that promotes the rights of women/minorities/gays/lesbians/etc.

It shouldn't be a huge surprise, the Taliban walked back into Afghanistan without much resistance because they represent the culture that the majority of the Afghanistan men want.

 

[GamingKaiju]

Thing is, you don't build a country only by throwing money and resources at it. A country is built around its population, culture and history. If you don't use that as the foundations of your work, all your infrastructure, schools and economy are just an empty shell.
(I started writing "maybe it's something Americans are unfamiliar with", but that's actually wrong since when rebuilding Japan there was a major focus on entertaining the the local culture)

Exactly. They had no reason to fight and were probably happy to live under Islamic rule as it's a Muslim country.

 

[belmarduk]

This was always destined for failure.
Little long but interesting watch.

Thank you! I've been looking for that for a week but forgot the name. Definitely eye-opening.

 

[HellforLeather]

I'm not in the military so I'm asking sincerely. Would an administration even be that involved in planning the logistics of a withdrawal? I always assumed at the presidential level you'd basically give the order to withdraw, and then the joint chiefs and about 20 layers of military would work out how to actually get that done.

Who do you think actually failed if it was publicly known for over a year that we're leaving? Previous administration, current administration, the generals, all of the above?

It does support the idea that the military purposefully dragged their feet in an attempt to force sleepy Joe to back out of the withdrawal plans or at least kick the can down the road. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised due to the decades of "we are winning" "we are making progress" "we're almost there!" constant fucking lies about the state of what we were doing over there.

 

[Punished Miku]

It does support the idea that the military purposefully dragged their feet in an attempt to force sleepy Joe to back out of the withdrawal plans or at least kick the can down the road. Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised due to the decades of "we are winning" "we are making progress" "we're almost there!" constant fucking lies about the state of what we were doing over there.

That's an excellent point.

 

[Raven117]

Looking at what is happening, it is shameful. Even assuming that pulling every American troop out of Afghanistan was the right call, there is no way anyone can convince me that what happened was the best option. It is shameful. And the biggest blow to U.S. foreign policy since the Bush years.

As a matter of fact, I could be convinced that we should have kept some small presence there to (1) keep China and Russia from meddling (2) keep the country from descending into total chaos, (3) work on building the infrastructure to help mine Lithium. Now, could this be done with 2500 troops? I don't know. But no one made that argument. It would have been valid because now, China is going to snag those rare minerals and kill whomever they need to to accomplish that goal and further expand their sphere of influence.

This is a blunder of absolute epic proportions.

 

[oagboghi2]

I'm not in the military so I'm asking sincerely. Would an administration even be that involved in planning the logistics of a withdrawal? I always assumed at the presidential level you'd basically give the order to withdraw, and then the joint chiefs and about 20 layers of military would work out how to actually get that done.

Who do you think actually failed if it was publicly known for over a year that we're leaving? Previous administration, current administration, the generals, all of the above?

the joint chiefs and the intelligence committee would report to the president the current situation on the ground, their current proposals, and the likelihood of certain events happening. Contingency plans are drawn up for all foreseeable situations.

It wasn't known that we were leaving this soon. Pres. Trump was trying to broker a peace deal, that would have had us drawing down from last year until May of this year, while keeping atleast 2500 troops over there, but the congress opposed him, Biden had been critical of it, and it was pretty much accepted that when he won, that deal was dead. Earlier this year, Biden announced we would be leaving, and should be cleared out by 9/11. That's partially why the Afghan army crumbled so quickly. They were expecting us to continue support operations out of the airbase until we left, not for us to quickly leave in just a few weeks.

 

[TransTrender]

2021 continues to dunk on 2020
Feels bad man

 

[QuantumZebra]

I'm not in the military so I'm asking sincerely. Would an administration even be that involved in planning the logistics of a withdrawal? I always assumed at the presidential level you'd basically give the order to withdraw, and then the joint chiefs and about 20 layers of military would work out how to actually get that done.

Who do you think actually failed if it was publicly known for over a year that we're leaving? Previous administration, current administration, the generals, all of the above?

The quick and dirty answer is all of the above. Withdrawals take years of planning. My best analysis (which is rudimentary) is:

1. The previous admin planned withdrawal but did not set a realistic timetable or begin proper preparations.

2. The new Sec. of Defense, Lloyd Austin, completely botched the withdrawal, and must have ignored the JCOS (essentially the boardroom of our top generals) recommendations.

3. Biden didn't step in and try to plan this out or veto the hasty withdrawal or do much of anything to assist (not like he's mentally competent enough now to do it anyway).

4. Nobody stood up and said "this is a terrible idea".

5. Nobody realized how quickly the Taliban would sweep the country utilizing all the weapons and armaments we left behind (duh).

6. Nobody planned how to get American nationals and Afghan allies out before they became target practice for Taliban.

7. But the most egregious mistake: military doctrine is to destroy any equipment you can't bring back so that the enemy can't get it... instead we fucking left everything for them. The Taliban is running around with tricked out JSOC M4s, HMMVs, M249s, Drones, you name it - they got it. We armed the worst terrorist group in the world with the best weapons in the world... for free.

--

Just a complete and utter failure at all levels. International tragedy-levels of fucked.

--

2021 continues to dunk on 2020
Feels bad man

With the family stuff that I've had happen, the absolute shitshow of an admin the US govt has been, and now the creation of the most dangerous terrorist state in the world... uh, yeah. 2021 shits on 2020, at least IMO.

 

[sackings]

One of the Taliban leaders, when asked about free speech there, said you should ask Facebook about free speech. TFW the Taliban call out censorship tyrants about freedom of speech...

 

[oagboghi2]

Exactly. They had no reason to fight and were probably happy to live under Islamic rule as it's a Muslim country.

People are falling off of airplanes to escape this country. This idea that these people want to live under an islamic theocratic dictatorship is just not true. A large amount of them, maybe a majority don't

 

[QuantumZebra]

People are falling off of airplanes to escape this country. This idea that these people want to live under an islamic theocratic dictatorship is just not true. A large amount of them, maybe a majority don't

Exactly.

I keep seeing people saying "well they want to live like this".

It's clear they have studied 0 about Afghanistan.

The majority of the country is *very* poor, they barely have the means to feed their family, much less fight against a terrorist force that likely includes their own family members, and/or escape the country. What happened here is essentially the American Civil War, but if a way way way more evil and crazy South won, and all allies abandoned us.

 

[belmarduk]

I think nobody expected the Talibans to conquer the country in two weeks. Most predictions I read before were between 2 and 5 months.

I did. Its well documented that the ANA was full of pedophiles, heroin addicts and the extremely corrupt. If you have no principles, then what do you have to fight for?

 

[GamingKaiju]

People are falling off of airplanes to escape this country. This idea that these people want to live under an islamic theocratic dictatorship is just not true. A large amount of them, maybe a majority don't

We built them a country. All they had to do is fight for it. Instead they would much prefer to risk their life's hanging onto a plane

 

[oagboghi2]

We built them a country. All they had to do is fight for it. Instead they would much prefer to risk their life's hanging onto a plane

Over 60k Afghan have died fighting with us for their country.

that's not including the Afghans who helped us but weren't necessarily soldiers.

 

[Punished Miku]

Over 60k Afghan have died fighting with us for their country.

that's not including the Afghans who helped us but weren't necessarily soldiers.

How? US casualties are not even remotely close to that high if you combine Iraq and Afghanistan. They're using US equipment and intelligence. It seems like an inflated number just at first glance, with me not knowing anything about it.

I think it's worth noting the sacrifice of Afghans who have tried to improve things. But at the end of the day, it's hard to say the US hasn't gone way above and beyond what we could handle. At some point, the responsibility for the country does have to fall to the people in that country. 20 years is almost 4x the length of WWII.

 

[oagboghi2]

How? US casualties are not even remotely close to that high if you combine Iraq and Afghanistan. They're using US equipment and intelligence. It seems like an inflated number just at first glance, with me not knowing anything about it.

I think it's worth noting the sacrifice of Afghans who have tried to improve things. But at the end of the day, it's hard to say the US hasn't gone way above and beyond what we could handle. At some point, the responsibility for the country does have to fall to the people in that country. 20 years is almost 4x the length of WWII.

We are still at war with North Korea.

This all or nothing mindset doesn't make any sense. Keeping a base in Afghanistan until everyone is evacuated would not have been the end of the world.

 

[BouncyFrag]

It's a nightmare and a disgrace.

Desperate Afghan moms throw babies over barbed wire to UK troops at airport

“It was awful what happened. By the end of the night there wasn’t one man among us who was not crying,” he added quietly,” a Parachute Regiment said.

nypost.com

 

[Phunkydiabetic]

Actually @EviLore, I'm sure you guys have considered this already, but politics discussion with the express rule of "no culture wars" wouldn't be so bad would it? That would let us have conversations about major events like this one, without necessarily straying into woke/anti-woke left/right mudfights, I'm sure it'd be a pain in the ass to moderate so completely understandable if it's not worth the trouble, but I do miss being able to talk about and get peoples takes on major world events.

Just make sure a member with paid gold started the thread so it'll at least have a chance. Shield of immunity +100.