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[DeepBreath87]

Trump wasn't really a hawk or a dove in the traditional sense. He just viewed other countries as a waste of resources broadly. He also wanted to pull our troops out of South Korea, Germany, pretty much everywhere... Doesn't mean he wouldn't bomb Syria or Iran if they told him he should, though.

Trump understood optics better than Biden. Trump wanted to appear hawkish and dovish at the same time. So he’d always talk about pulling out of here or there but then not actually do it. He would also talk a lot about bombing this or that but rarely act on it. He was pretty good foreign policy wise. The Solomani strike was actually kind of brilliant in that it scared the shit out of America’s enemies. Prior to that I think it was starting to seem like Trump was a paper tiger. All talk. But that move changed that perception quite a bit without starting a broader conflict.

I think Trump’s rhetoric domestically is the reason he wasn’t a better president. Too combative with our own people. But his foreign policy actions were actually quite good. He was weak with respect to Hong Kong however, which I consider a bit of a failure. This stuff is hard though. Biden is learning this now. This was always going to be a mess. It didn’t have to be a colossal failure, however.

 

[Keihart]

Just gonna link this here in case anyone wants some easy to digest context about Afghanistan, i was not aware of half the shit talked in this video.

 

[CGiRanger]

Just gonna link this here in case anyone wants some easy to digest context about Afghanistan, i was not aware of half the shit talked in this video.

Just from that it feels like Afghanistan should be broken up into smaller countries. The geography just would make it impossible to govern, along with the disparate cultures and ethnicities that don't get along. It's so interesting how the borders of the country are still just there because of the British so long ago.

 

[SF Kosmo]

Trump understood optics better than Biden.

Trump understood the optics of his base. I don't think he realized the extent to which he alienated the normies in the suburbs though.

But more than understanding, I think he just based his decisions on those optics more than anyone else. Everything Trump did was about flexing nuts or performing for the base, almost nothing else mattered to him. According to some of his advisers, when they were trying to influence him they had to do it by describing the news coverage he'd get, rather than the actual policy consequences.

He was weak with respect to Hong Kong however, which I consider a bit of a failure.

China broadly. Apparently the trade deal had him on eggshells, and that's why he kissed their ass so much at the start of Covid, even though his people told them they were lying.

This stuff is hard though. Biden is learning this now. This was always going to be a mess. It didn’t have to be a colossal failure, however.

I don't know if Biden gives a fuck. He has pretty much said he plans to be a one termer, and by the time the next election rolls around no one is gonna care about any of this. I agree it's a bad press cycle but I'm not sure that's the only thing we should be considering. The press spent years justifying forever wars that failed and they're not gonna let that go without some kicking and screaming but no one is gonna miss the Afghan war a couple years from now. Gotta play the long game sometimes.

 

[Tschumi]

Well, I didn't want to talk about US politics.

I think someone complaining that homework is too hard when their tutor isn't there to help them aughta get better at their homework. So, as such, I don't think the politics of what the US has done in leaving Afghanistan are as relevant as what Afghanistan's Army did after they left.

 

[DeepBreath87]

Trump understood the optics of his base. I don't think he realized the extent to which he alienated the normies in the suburbs though.

But more than understanding, I think he just based his decisions on those optics more than anyone else. Everything Trump did was about flexing nuts or performing for the base, almost nothing else mattered to him. According to some of his advisers, when they were trying to influence him they had to do it by describing the news coverage he'd get, rather than the actual policy consequences.


China broadly. Apparently the trade deal had him on eggshells, and that's why he kissed their ass so much at the start of Covid, even though his people told them they were lying.



I don't know if Biden gives a fuck. He has pretty much said he plans to be a one termer, and by the time the next election rolls around no one is gonna care about any of this. I agree it's a bad press cycle but I'm not sure that's the only thing we should be considering. The press spent years justifying forever wars that failed and they're not gonna let that go without some kicking and screaming but no one is gonna miss the Afghan war a couple years from now. Gotta play the long game sometimes.

The bigger problem, outside the humanitarian tragedy happening to the people in Afghanistan, is that it damages the US reputation internationally. And not so much the failure of the Afghan government which was probably inevitable. What really looks bad is getting the intelligence so completely wrong. You can’t have the President and the military and intelligence all saying Afghanistan is going to hold up for months and then it falls in less than 2 weeks. That makes us look weak and incompetent.

 

[rorepmE]

Just gonna link this here in case anyone wants some easy to digest context about Afghanistan, i was not aware of half the shit talked in this video.

It's easy to conqueror, it's impossible to get them to be anything other than Afghans or to any nation building effort. Why build a nation that can take 2-3 generations when they can just migrate to Europe and or America and not have to do the hard work?

The bigger problem, outside the humanitarian tragedy happening to the people in Afghanistan, is that it damages the US reputation internationally. And not so much the failure of the Afghan government which was probably inevitable. What really looks bad is getting the intelligence so completely wrong. You can’t have the President and the military and intelligence all saying Afghanistan is going to hold up for months and then it falls in less than 2 weeks. That makes us look weak and incompetent.

The Taliban like any fighting force needs money. Seems like they were heavy in the narcotics trade to fund their operations to pay off all those clans.

 

[SF Kosmo]

The bigger problem, outside the humanitarian tragedy happening to the people in Afghanistan, is that it damages the US reputation internationally. And not so much the failure of the Afghan government which was probably inevitable. What really looks bad is getting the intelligence so completely wrong. You can’t have the President and the military and intelligence all saying Afghanistan is going to hold up for months and then it falls in less than 2 weeks. That makes us look weak and incompetent.

America's reputation internationally is arrogance, and our forever wars in the middle east only contribute to that.

This idea that getting out makes us look "weak" to anyone is something you can only believe if you're drunk on CNN. No one else thinks that. Doubling down on mistakes is something insecure narcissists do when they're embarrassed. It's not actually convincing anyone.

 

[BouncyFrag]

 

[BouncyFrag]

 

[BouncyFrag]

Weakness.

 

[BouncyFrag]

Amazing. The pilot of the C-17 lowered the altitude of the C-17 fleeing Afghanistan to benefit the baby being born in the cargo hold.

 

[rorepmE]

I'm setting up a refugee camp in my bed for that last girl @2:53

 

[Banjo64]

At least America won’t always be mocked for Vietnam anymore. No, this is much worse.

As a Brit, waste of lives and taxpayer money. This is how not to wage a war 101.

US Dem reaction, utterly disgraceful.

 

[betrayal]

The Afghan army was four to six times larger than the Taliban and much better equipped. But all this plays no role if a army does not know what it is fighting for. Things like poor pay, no homogeneity in the Afghan armed forces, a corrupt government and much more are secondary reasons for what has happened.

According to surveys, 99% of the Afghan population wants Sharia law. The vast majority also find death penalties justified if people quit Islam (https://www.opindia.com/2021/08/pew-research-survey-afghanistan-sharia-taliban/). You only have to do the math to know how easy it is for a group like the Taliban to come to power under these circumstances.

What happened in Afghanistan was only logical and another consequence of pointless interference in foreign affairs.

In my opinion Afghanistan, like many others countires, should simply be left alone and the West should stop to constantly judge everything or act as if democracy is the holy grail of humanity. The people in Afghanistan have a completely different way of life, i.e. tribal culture and many other aspects. These alone are enormously strong contrasts to a democracy and that is why the arrogance of the West almost always leads to more suffering and not peace.

 

[rkofan87]

The short version of how I feel is fuck them all.

same.

 

[xrnzaaas]

USA shouldn't have started a war they couldn't win. Plus they've picked the worst moment to retreat, the Taliban can now make various announcements on 9/11's 20th anniversary to mock them even more.

 

[FunkMiller]

The Afghan army was four to six times larger than the Taliban and much better equipped. But all this plays no role if a army does not know what it is fighting for. Things like poor pay, no homogeneity in the Afghan armed forces, a corrupt government and much more are secondary reasons for what has happened.

According to surveys, 99% of the Afghan population wants Sharia law. The vast majority also find death penalties justified if people quit Islam (https://www.opindia.com/2021/08/pew-research-survey-afghanistan-sharia-taliban/). You only have to do the math to know how easy it is for a group like the Taliban to come to power under these circumstances.

What happened in Afghanistan was only logical and another consequence of pointless interference in foreign affairs.

In my opinion Afghanistan, like many others countires, should simply be left alone and the West should stop to constantly judge everything or act as if democracy is the holy grail of humanity. The people in Afghanistan have a completely different way of life, i.e. tribal culture and many other aspects. These alone are enormously strong contrasts to a democracy and that is why the arrogance of the West almost always leads to more suffering and not peace.

A free secular democracy is objectively the best form of governance, but I absolutely agree with you that's it's pointless to keep trying to prove this to a bunch of people whose heads are still in the middle ages. The west had to go through hundreds of years of ultra religious stupidity before we overcame it, they have to do the same thing - and there's not a damn thing we can do to help them with it.

 

[RoboFu]

USA shouldn't have started a war they couldn't win. Plus they've picked the worst moment to retreat, the Taliban can now make various announcements on 9/11's 20th anniversary to mock them even more.

The US could have won, the idiots in the us would let the US win and now our leadership is too weak do anything meaningful and the taliban knows it.

 

[Lanrutcon]

The US could have won, the idiots in the us would let the US win and now our leadership is too weak do anything meaningful and the taliban knows it.

Coulda. Woulda. Shoulda. You had your chance, results matter, and those results are in.

The people in Afghanistan have a completely different way of life, i.e. tribal culture and many other aspects. These alone are enormously strong contrasts to a democracy and that is why the arrogance of the West almost always leads to more suffering and not peace.

I don't see it as arrogance to see a backwards culture and realise there are obvious improvements to be made. When good men do nothing and all that. As arrogant as the US is, at least they gave it a shot. Probably for the wrong reasons, probably with the wrong approach and definitely with no long term plan...but hey. Btw, tribal culture is just code for backwards savagery most of the time.

 

[betrayal]

I don't see it as arrogance to see a backwards culture and realise there are obvious improvements to be made. When good men do nothing and all that. As arrogant as the US is, at least they gave it a shot. Probably for the wrong reasons, probably with the wrong approach and definitely with no long term plan...but hey. Btw, tribal culture is just code for backwards savagery most of the time.

Of course, most of the people there still live mentally in the Middle Ages. But they have to go through the development on their own, as almost every single country in the world has done. The West doesn't have to be a permanent savior everywhere. Especially not when the relatively short history of similar missions has often been driven by self-interest and hidden agendas.

People don't need democracy, their own house with a 70" TV, free choice of gender or social media to be happy. Happiness comes with progress that you work out yourself and not with imposed ideals that are not compatible with your own current values.

A free secular democracy is objectively the best form of governance.

This may well be true in theory, but reality is a different matter altogether, because it involves certain moral standards that must be shared by all people. Of course, democracy is great, but you it's not like it's always best suited for every circumstance and not prone to corruption.

 

[Chankoras]

The US could have won, the idiots in the us would let the US win and now our leadership is too weak do anything meaningful and the taliban knows it.

In the context of Afghanistan what does winning the war mean and how could have been achieved?

 

[Vestal]

The US could have won, the idiots in the us would let the US win and now our leadership is too weak do anything meaningful and the taliban knows it.

Could have won what exactly? What kind of metric would be used to determine a "Win".

 

[Atrus]

The Taliban have drawn a red line for western troops to pull out by August 31st. Humanitarian aid to Afghanistan is also stuck because of security concerns and have been asked by the US to be redirected to airbases now under Taliban control. The Taliban declaration comes a day before a G7 meeting on whether to keep troops on the ground beyond August 31st.

Germany in talks to allow civilian airlift after deadline – as it happened

This blog is now closed. We’ve launched a new blog here with the latest.

www.theguardian.com

 

[belmarduk]

Great to see some Afghanis making a bit of progress.I hope they can do more.

 

[FunkMiller]

This may well be true in theory, but reality is a different matter altogether, because it involves certain moral standards that must be shared by all people. Of course, democracy is great, but you it's not like it's always best suited for every circumstance and not prone to corruption.

It’s not true in theory. It’s true in practice, as evidenced by the countries of this planet.

 

[thefool]

I feel that US business model of trying to export their democracy is not particularly sustainable nor effective.

 

[belmarduk]

I feel that US business model of trying to export their democracy is not particularly sustainable nor effective.

It has succeeded in the past. Japan, Germany and South Korea are great examples. The thing is, those countries actually wanted Democracy. The overwhelming majority of Afghanis do not.

 

[RJMacready73]

The bigger problem, outside the humanitarian tragedy happening to the people in Afghanistan, is that it damages the US reputation internationally. And not so much the failure of the Afghan government which was probably inevitable. What really looks bad is getting the intelligence so completely wrong. You can’t have the President and the military and intelligence all saying Afghanistan is going to hold up for months and then it falls in less than 2 weeks. That makes us look weak and incompetent.

Damages? Mate it's been fucking destroyed for years

 

[DeepBreath87]

Damages? Mate it's been fucking destroyed for years

This is way different. This is not about whether people agree or disagree with decisions made, past or present. This is about competence. This is about looking both weak and incompetent. If you tell people it’s going to be months possibly years before the Afghan government possibly collapses and it happens in a weekend, you look like you don’t know what the fuck is going on. If you’re then reduced to walking on eggshells around the fucking Taliban who are parading around with your own guns and equipment as you try to evacuate thousands of your own citizens, you look pathetic.

In the past, the US foreign policy has appeared incompetent. The WMD bullshit in Iraq being the best example. But it’s rare, and far worse IMO, for the US to look this weak.

 

[RJMacready73]

I don't think anyone outside of the states views US foreign policy as anything than utter hilarity, it's so blatantly obvious that the country is run by incompetent arseholes serving a very rich elite and you guys have to pay for it with your lives and leave the places you bring "Freedom" too in utter ruin, yeah I know China / Russia bad but fuck me I've yet to see China and Russia mobilize and occupy foreign nations like the yanks do bringing untold misery to the local populace and all for what? You've pretty much left all the gear necessary for the Taliban to secure and hold onto power... Well done lads, so whose next? Those American shareholders need to buy new Gulfstream jets...

 

[Deleted member 1159]

I don't think anyone outside of the states views US foreign policy as anything than utter hilarity, it's so blatantly obvious that the country is run by incompetent arseholes serving a very rich elite and you guys have to pay for it with your lives and leave the places you bring "Freedom" too in utter ruin, yeah I know China / Russia bad but fuck me I've yet to see China and Russia mobilize and occupy foreign nations like the yanks do bringing untold misery to the local populace and all for what? You've pretty much left all the gear necessary for the Taliban to secure and hold onto power... Well done lads, so whose next? Those American shareholders need to buy new Gulfstream jets...

Try googling Georgia or Ukraine sometime.

 

[Raven117]

The Taliban have drawn a red line for western troops to pull out by August 31st. Humanitarian aid to Afghanistan is also stuck because of security concerns and have been asked by the US to be redirected to airbases now under Taliban control. The Taliban declaration comes a day before a G7 meeting on whether to keep troops on the ground beyond August 31st.

Germany in talks to allow civilian airlift after deadline – as it happened

This blog is now closed. We’ve launched a new blog here with the latest.

www.theguardian.com

Imagine the ineptitude of the Biden administration that would allow the Taliban to dictate anything that the U.S. has to do.

 

[CGiRanger]

It really is amazing how so little outrage there is about the Biden administration abandoning American Military tech and weaponry to the Taliban. Like, didn't there used to be congressional investigations or special counsels on this sort of thing? (Iran-Contra?). Didn't the previous president get impeached over a supposedly inappropriate phone call? But here it seems to be sorta played down as no big deal.

It's like no one realizes what the ramifications of this are. What those weapons will be likely used for (given to the Chinese, given to terrorists, etc.)

And of course just the utter shame and disgrace of the US Military being hamstrung and cannot even go out and extract American citizens, and our allies like the British are the ones going around and doing that.

 

[RJMacready73]

Try googling Georgia or Ukraine sometime.

I'm well aware of what the Russians have been up to but it's nowhere on the same scale as the utter destruction wrought on Iraq and Afghanistan not to mention lives lost and all for what? Re-arming the very militants you went to war with in the first place, I can't imagine the pain of the soldiers that have lost limbs and friends are going through watching this shit show evolve and every single one of them could've foreseen the collapse of the Afghan army from a mile away

 

[RJMacready73]

And lol... Blaming Biden, it's not like he got youse into the bloody war nor was it he who negotiated with the Taliban to get out, he's just as much along for the ride as everyone else, the Tango cunt didn't leave him with much choice

 

[MrS]

America has dropped the ball big time on this is how I feel. A lot of people are going to die as a result of US pulling out. That said, US troops can't stay there forever.

 

[FunkMiller]

I don't think anyone outside of the states views US foreign policy as anything than utter hilarity, it's so blatantly obvious that the country is run by incompetent arseholes serving a very rich elite and you guys have to pay for it with your lives and leave the places you bring "Freedom" too in utter ruin, yeah I know China / Russia bad but fuck me I've yet to see China and Russia mobilize and occupy foreign nations like the yanks do bringing untold misery to the local populace and all for what? You've pretty much left all the gear necessary for the Taliban to secure and hold onto power... Well done lads, so whose next? Those American shareholders need to buy new Gulfstream jets...

I don’t think many inside America really understand how it’s viewed by the rest of the world. They mostly don’t care either… but that really is a big part of the problem. Everyone from Bush onwards has turned the country into both a laughing stock, and a place not to be relied upon for good governance or cooperation. America should be the centre of a strong democratic union of western nations, but it’s constant bullshit, self interest, bravado and unreliability has rather ruined the chances of that.

 

[DeepBreath87]

And lol... Blaming Biden, it's not like he got youse into the bloody war nor was it he who negotiated with the Taliban to get out, he's just as much along for the ride as everyone else, the Tango cunt didn't leave him with much choice

Oh this is a wonderful take. The guy in charge for six months who announced the policy and has gone on record saying he would’ve done this regardless isn’t responsible. Any more hot takes?

Biden: I would have sought Afghanistan withdrawal even without Trump’s Taliban deal

The president’s acknowledgment comes after he has argued his hands were tied by the previous administration’s agreement.

www.politico.com

 

[EverydayBeast]

The numbers show they’re stressing out soldiers, Afghanistan clearly needs a stable government society and leaving was the right move.

 

[BouncyFrag]

 

[Deleted member 1159]

Oh this is a wonderful take. The guy in charge for six months who announced the policy and has gone on record saying he would’ve done this regardless isn’t responsible. Any more hot takes?

Biden: I would have sought Afghanistan withdrawal even without Trump’s Taliban deal

The president’s acknowledgment comes after he has argued his hands were tied by the previous administration’s agreement.

www.politico.com

You can both have a desired outcome (withdrawal of troops) and have your hands tied (May 1st deadline). This is trying to find a contradiction that doesn’t actually exist.

 

[DeepBreath87]

You can both have a desired outcome (withdrawal of troops) and have your hands tied (May 1st deadline). This is trying to find a contradiction that doesn’t actually exist.

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Biden said he was withdrawing regardless. The current deadline is one negotiated by him and his people when they adjusted the deal made by Trump. They own this. Entirely. No excuses.

 

[Bernd Lauert]

So ISIS just got involved (Taliban likely wouldn't do a suicide bombing). What a shitshow.

 

[CGiRanger]

 

[Deleted member 1159]

I’m not sure what you’re getting at. Biden said he was withdrawing regardless. The current deadline is one negotiated by him and his people when they adjusted the deal made by Trump. They own this. Entirely. No excuses.

The timeline was still tied to the initial deadline. Yes they got an extension but they were negotiating from a position of having to ask for it. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be plenty of criticism for how this has unfolded, there should be, but to act like there isn’t plenty of blame to go around for it, especially of the previous admin, is just ridiculous.

 

[MDSLKTR]

Oof two suicide bombers at a US checkpoint. Shit about to get really ugly.

 

[infinitys_7th]

Up to three US troops injured in Kabul explosion, reports say

Thousands of Afghans are waiting outside the airport in the hopes of making it on a US evacuation flight

www.independent.co.uk

Kabul explosion: Up to three US troops injured in attack outside airport, reports say

 

[oagboghi2]

In the context of Afghanistan what does winning the war mean and how could have been achieved?

If the condition of winning the war was keeping the Taliban out of power, then we could have easily "won".

We lost because the American people stopped caring, and didn't want to fund it anymore.

The timeline was still tied to the initial deadline. Yes they got an extension but they were negotiating from a position of having to ask for it. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be plenty of criticism for how this has unfolded, there should be, but to act like there isn’t plenty of blame to go around for it, especially of the previous admin, is just ridiculous.

Joe Biden is the president, not Trump. There is nothing that forces Biden to follow the previous admin plan, and until this debacle, they weren't doing so anyway. They were changing dates, moving troops in and out of bases, and most importantly, Biden chooses to end offering military support out of Baghram airbase.

 

[DeepBreath87]

The timeline was still tied to the initial deadline. Yes they got an extension but they were negotiating from a position of having to ask for it. I’m not saying there shouldn’t be plenty of criticism for how this has unfolded, there should be, but to act like there isn’t plenty of blame to go around for it, especially of the previous admin, is just ridiculous.

There can be blame passed around for Afghanistan broadly. This particular operation, the one we are watching fall apart before our eyes, lies at the feet of this administration. The previous administration negotiated some deal. The Biden administration negotiated another one. They chose this date. If they were not going to be able to meet their own deadline without this level of chaos, they should have negotiated another date. They should have consulted more closely with allies. It’s a debacle. Maybe it was always going to be. But they look like fools running around talking about how the Taliban were at best months away from taking Kabul, then it happens over a weekend. That blame, again, lies solely with this administration.