I don't know. Given how Leadbetter been acting lately, I wouldn't be surprised at the mental gymnastics and logical contortions DF will go through to make the XBO and PS4 versions as even as possible, maybe even giving the XBO version a slight advantage.
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How much different will X1 and PS4 multiplats be visually?
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I don't know. Given how Leadbetter been acting lately, I wouldn't be surprised at the mental gymnastics and logical contortions DF will go through to make the XBO and PS4 versions as even as possible, maybe even giving the XBO version a slight advantage.
dgrdsv
Member
You don't need anything to "utilize" a faster GPU and RAM. You launch your game and - BAM - it works faster. There may not be a difference in quality but that means only that there will be a difference in performance.
If you cared about games above all else, I don't think you'd still be having this discussion of what box you should buy and play on over the next 8 years. If you care about performance differences, you'll just buy the game on the platform it's best on, same as this gen.
GoofsterStud
Member
Did they not see the difference this generation for having a slightly (less of a gap than next gen) better GPU?
Considering this generation the difference will be huge...
Xbox 360 had slightly better GPU but PS3 had significantly more powerful proccessors.
Games looked better on the Xbox 360...
PS4 has a 30-40% (way bigger difference, and the CPU difference is negligible, and better Ram (easier to program for and unified))
Considering this generation the difference will be huge...
Xbox 360 had slightly better GPU but PS3 had significantly more powerful proccessors.
Games looked better on the Xbox 360...
PS4 has a 30-40% (way bigger difference, and the CPU difference is negligible, and better Ram (easier to program for and unified))
Krappadizzle
Member
I highly highly highly doubt that.
Naturally, but that wasn't his argument. His argument was 'if you care about games, why do you care PS4 has better hardware?' The answer to that is "that's a lame argument" because caring about games means demanding better hardware where possibly within the reasonable limits of a mass market budget. Technology gives developers the tools to create an even wider net of possibly gameplay opportunities, and however tiny you think those changes are, however insignificant you believe a gain of 5-10fps is here or there, caring about games means desiring the best hardware for these experiences (whether you can afford it or not is another story; no shame in not being able to afford it, doesn't make you less of a gamer or some shit).
And like you say, it also means following the performance where it leads you (and that your budget allows, of course).
only gaf will talk about it
CadetMahoney
Member
Also includes wisely spending your money for best performance.
Pretty much, I don't see how launch can games be identicle if one version is running on hardware with 40% better gpu. Minimal would be less tearing and frame drops by default.
I don't think multiplats will heavily favor gpu compute because they won't be able to reach framerate parity. However both systems are sourced from the same GPU architecture, so they are both capable of GPU compute. The PS4 has some tweaks that amplify the difference in compute capability; moreso than even the difference in flops suggests. Even the WiiU is capable of GPGPU.
I even mentioned in my earlier post that the only difference we will see in graphics is in exclusives.
I'm curious about how GPU compute is going to end up playing out towards the end of the gen. I imagine something like The Order 1886 is probably using it heavily for all that real time environmental deformation but I'm eager to see what third parties do with it. We know the PS4 is heavily modified for it but I wonder if third parties will end up using it extensively at all if the Xbone doesn't share the same capacities for compute functions.
EDIT: haha, I just saw the post above mine.
EDIT: haha, I just saw the post above mine.
A big bottleneck for GPGPU is the memory architecture. Unfortunately based on what we currently know the XB1 is not on the level of the PS4, which as you rightfully point out results in multiplatform titles not taking advantage of that.
I didn't disagree with that. I disagreed that they are capable of the same GPU compute which I don't think is the case based on the lack of hUMA on XB1 and the ACE differences.
I doubt The Order 1886 is using that heavily. Second game by Naughty Dog is my guess. (The ones that just finished TLoU and are / were on vacation and might still be working on DLC.)
seventynine
Member
Leadbetter's face offs will be fun, certainly, but DF has other writers too and they seem much more even. At least one of them posts here quite frequently although his name escapes me now.
Exactly, if anything the gap will shorten, not widen considering that its the XBO architecture that's harder this time. Makes no sense, its like saying over time the gap between Xbox and PS3 multiplatform games will widen over time. 360 having the more capable GPU and being easier to program. This time XBO has the more capable CPU and weaker GPU, its like the complete 180 this gen.
for this reason isnt happening right?
the cpu differences if they use same cores for the os..and the clock remain 175 vs 1.6 will be a lots in certain cases
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
PS4 has the same second screen gaming capabilities as SmartGlass enables. And not thru Vita.
They've talked about it with their PlayStation app coming to iOS and Android.
BleachAndPepsi
Banned
Please post a link showing what the PS4's CPU speed will be. I haven't seen it anywhere.
Edit: Sorry for double post.
Only thing I don't agree with is that the gap will shorten...
the difference this current generation is that the PS3 probably is technically the superior console...the cell can do things that the 360 just simply can't do...the proof of this is in games like the Uncharted series and The Last of Us...so first party devs were able to leverage that additional horsepower...while it took multiplatform devs awhile to figure it all out and even then they only did a so so job...
Next gen you don't have a radically different CPU to figure out...yes if the rumors hold true on the PS4's clock speed the Xbone will have a slightly faster CPU...it's not like there will be things that the Xbone can do that the PS4 cannot...
BradleyLove
Member
Cell was more powerful than 360's CPU yet I don't recall any CPU "differences" then; GPU was the key performance differentiator. That's not going to change. You need to stop making shit up.
Besides, 1.75 vs 1.6 don't mean a whole lots if Xbone reserves more cores for OS.
Even at the exact same speed, the XBO CPU has more logic. Look it up, SHAPE adds up to 200gflops worth of performance to the CPU, that's without even counting the 10% boost to the clock.
And where do people get that the difference between the PS4 GPU and Xbox One GPU is a much larger gap than Xenos vs RSX?
PS4 vs Xbox One GPU
1.84TF vs 1.31TF.... a drop of 28% (or if you want to play the numbers to make it prettier for PS4, an increase of 40%)
Xbox 360 vs PS3
240GF vs 176GF .... about the same difference. ~40% increase for Xenos.
Lets not even discuss Memexport functions and the 192 ALUs
Melchiah
Member
Just like there was no noticeable difference between the two versions of Bayonetta and Red Dead Redemption, right?
This time the systems are similar, so it won't be a problem to increase the resolution, framerate, anti-aliasing, anisotropic filtering, shadows, motion blur, and other effects, just like it's been done on different level Amd GPUs on the PC side.
Holy shit that's some creative math, Lets just add shit together.
thewhitehawk
Member
Anything we say now will be mere speculation. The quality of the initial multi-platform software will depend on the quality of the developers and the development tools available to them.
We do know that PS4's development tools are much better than they were with the PS3. They put a lot of focus on that and some developers have said positive things about it. This doesn't imply that multi-platform games will be better on the PS4, but it does mean that they are having less difficulty developing software on it than they did for Sony's previous console.
The only thing I think is fair to expect is that multi-platform titles will be of a better quality than they were on the PS3. Whether or not they will be better than the XBOne's is pure speculation at this point in time.
We do know that PS4's development tools are much better than they were with the PS3. They put a lot of focus on that and some developers have said positive things about it. This doesn't imply that multi-platform games will be better on the PS4, but it does mean that they are having less difficulty developing software on it than they did for Sony's previous console.
The only thing I think is fair to expect is that multi-platform titles will be of a better quality than they were on the PS3. Whether or not they will be better than the XBOne's is pure speculation at this point in time.
Honestly it's more the ease of PS4 development combined with the raw specs which is why I think noticeable differences will be common, not just the raw numbers alone. It'll be pretty simple to take advantage of.
Huh? Shape is part of MS' custom CPU design. It adds millions of transistors that can offload up to 200GF from the system by handling 100% of the audio processing via hardware freeing up resources for other tasks. PS4 doesn't have this, but holy shit batman, lets just sweep that little fact under the rug.
I agree...but first gen titles are always..."rough" when it comes to optimization...
Unoptimized games are going to run best on the hardware with the most brute force power...
Mr_Antimatter
Member
I wonder how much of it is due to their purchase of SN Systems and their tools expertise. I know they had their vita stuff ready pre release, I wonder how their ps4 stuff is looking.
Louis Cyphre
Banned
Well once again we will see the common rule of exclusives being the deciding factor and I'm not sure I can agree with that philosophy. Every developer works differently and each has their own goals of what they want to accomplish. How is it fair to compare a linear game that is simply gorgeous to a more open scale world where you have a lot of things going on? Or one FPS that is running at 60 fps compared to another that is visually more impressive but running at half the frame rate?
To me the best way to compare would having the same title side by side. Others will disagree thinking those games on multiple systems are often made for the lowest common denominator. That isn't always the case is it? If it were then why do games on the PC look and run better? Sure, some could be cutting corners not wanting to allocate all resources into getting the most out of each hardware but it's still a much better guide to compare when they are the same game. We can clearly tell games on mobile devices from consoles, we can also tell from handheld gaming systems like the 3DS and even the Playstation Vita to that of consoles. We can tell the difference between the Wii and the PS3 and XBOX 360. We will also be able to tell from the Wii-U and the PS4 and XBOX One. So why is it an issue when the XBOX 360 and PS3 are being compared and the instant reaction is to mention games that are not on each system?
Launch games available on both system will not be the end of all truths. It will however show people how the two systems compare to one another.
To me the best way to compare would having the same title side by side. Others will disagree thinking those games on multiple systems are often made for the lowest common denominator. That isn't always the case is it? If it were then why do games on the PC look and run better? Sure, some could be cutting corners not wanting to allocate all resources into getting the most out of each hardware but it's still a much better guide to compare when they are the same game. We can clearly tell games on mobile devices from consoles, we can also tell from handheld gaming systems like the 3DS and even the Playstation Vita to that of consoles. We can tell the difference between the Wii and the PS3 and XBOX 360. We will also be able to tell from the Wii-U and the PS4 and XBOX One. So why is it an issue when the XBOX 360 and PS3 are being compared and the instant reaction is to mention games that are not on each system?
Launch games available on both system will not be the end of all truths. It will however show people how the two systems compare to one another.
Whipped Spartan
Member
OP, Not as much as people on here think.
Anyone around for PS3 hype in 2006 can attest to the same level of hype on how much better it was over X360. Comparing spec for spec is not as meaningful as people want it to be.
Anyone around for PS3 hype in 2006 can attest to the same level of hype on how much better it was over X360. Comparing spec for spec is not as meaningful as people want it to be.
Exactly. What really matters is price and games. Neither side has an exclusive killer app yet. The battle comes down to multiplats and PS4 offers the lowest entry price and most likely the best performance.
PS4 has what like 4 dedicated compute units for GPGPU? Lets not talk about that....
helvetica bold
Banned
I think it will depend on the game engine. Frostbite is optimized for Windows 8, it's DX 11.1 exclusive.
Im thinking it might run on X1 better. However Ghost games did hint we would see better performance on a system. NFS Rivals uses FB3 so what system will perform better?
Im thinking it might run on X1 better. However Ghost games did hint we would see better performance on a system. NFS Rivals uses FB3 so what system will perform better?
200Gflops for Shape? Good god, no. The entire CPU is roughly 100 Gflops andMicrosoft themselves said at Hotchips that it was about the equivalent of one of the CPU cores. I'm tired of people making Shape out to be some magical piece of hardware what will bridge the gap between the consoles. It is a nice bonus for keeping the CPU freed up? Yes. XBO also has more power to dedicate to audio processing because of the Kinect voice functionality and we don't know the full extent of the PS4's audio hardware (although I guarantee it won't be as complex). As far as we currently know, XBO does have an advantage when it comes to the CPU but I'm really fed up with some people's creative math to make it sound several times larger than it actually is.
Melchiah
Member
Actually, The Crew developer said something about both of their SDKs in the Digital Foundry article in July:
Mercury Land-Snake
Member
About this big:
200GF, wow they must have really increased that since their talk at hot chips when it was only 15.4GF:
100% of the audio processing? got a source for that because it certainly can't do ray casting for audio.
PS4 doesn't have dedicated audio hardware?
http://www.gamechup.com/mark-cerny-ps4-contains-a-dedicated-audio-processing-chip/
are you saying you know more about the PS4 than the lead architect because he seems to think it does have dedicated audio hardware.
Not sweeping any of your 'facts' under the rug, just pointing out they're all false.
luca_29_bg
Member
Incredible how some people wants in every way to give the impression that ps4 and xbox one are equal...i will never understand this kind of things! O_O
It's not, though it is similar to a role reversal. The difference being that the CPU difference between the PS4/XO is very minor (if the rumoured PS4 upclock to 2ghz is true, in favour of the PS4 instead), whilst the CPU difference between the PS3 and 360 was quite substantial.
PS3 compared to the 360
Completely different architecture
Considerably better CPU
Worse GPU
Non Unified ram
Less ram (larger OS footprint)
More complex development
PS4 compared to the Xbox One
Virtually the same architecture
Notably better GPU
Marginally slower CPU (unless upclock rumours are true)
Unified ram
More Memory bandwidth (GDDR5 vs DDR3)
More ram (smaller OS footprint)
Less complex development
Chobel
Member
where did you get that number? in HotShips they said
EDIT: Thanks RoboPlato.
Vulcano's assistant
Banned
Gamespot used to do these, they were pretty cool.
What rumor?
I remember some 1.8GHz estimates by some Japanese tech blogger, but I don't remember anything credible about 2GHz. (Not that the 1.8GHz was credible.)
15.4 actually
The rumor was PS4Daily, who is generally full of shit. The Japanese architecture outline is actually fairly credible since it was mostly from Sony but given that it had a question mark after it I have no idea where the number came from.
Wow nice find. I guess that's the entire post discredited completely, I was not expecting a source for the amount of audio handled by the SHAPE chip.
Some site (I don't have a link) claimed 2ghz. I think Thuway said he'd heard similar rumours, though I don't think he pinned a number.
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