Tommie Hu$tle
Member
SteveMeister said:
On top of this a deficit, a prolonged war that is costing billions, a weak dollar, and a weak ecomony. This is a recipie for inflationcity.
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Hurricane Katrina Thread: Any LA Gaffers?
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On top of this a deficit, a prolonged war that is costing billions, a weak dollar, and a weak ecomony. This is a recipie for inflationcity.
Fragamemnon
Member
Tommie Hu$tle said:
The first two problems are pretty easily solved, to be honest. Cut and gracefully run (we'll deal with it later) from Iraq, raise taxes a bit in such a way that consumer spending isn't greatly affected (again, not too hard but the fucktard GOP will never do it), the dollar will recover well on the news that the deficit has been cut, especially if we fuck over China to reduce the trade deficit with some WTO violations, since they get away with goddamn everything.
Tommie Hu$tle
Member
Fragamemnon said:
I agree that those problems are easy to fix but who is going to fix them?
NO! Jesus Christ... we cannot let that stupid fucking country become another example of Americans being cowards and running when shit gets tough. The costs we'll pay later will be far higher and worse than anything we could possibly worry about now. We do NOT run... we internationalize. France and Germany want to help train cops-- let them. In country or out, let them. Get the UN back in it, admit that we fucked up and get their help. But you do NOT abandon this mission, or our kids will be paying for it, and I don't know about you, but I'd really rather not commit the same sins that my parents did by always taking the easy way out. What do we think we are... baby boomers?Fragamemnon said:
VisionaryQuest0
Member
Prospero said:
They try to make it sound like good news but for the city to be at lake levels just means it's now under 20 or more ft of water right.? That's not good at all.
Fragamemnon
Member
whytemyke said:
Let me emphasize the term graceful. This means that the withdrawl of troops is controlled, we leave with a somewhat-civil Islamic Republic that represses its minorities and hopefully to a lesser extent women, and we have no permanent presence there.
It's going there anyway, we might as well not fight it. We're past the point of saving face completely in Iraq-that train left the station a long time ago, when we decided that shocking their economy with unregulated capitalism and disbanding the standing army was an OK thing to do.
Not that it isn't obvious that this is pretty bad, but statements like this have been cropping up from enough people to cause concern. This morning I got pointed to a thread at Free Republic that I initially chose to disregard:
link
Much later in the thread, the same poster--
And now I'm starting to see things like this on MetaFilter (a site whose posters I actually trust):
link
Oh, no.
link
Much later in the thread, the same poster--
And now I'm starting to see things like this on MetaFilter (a site whose posters I actually trust):
link
Oh, no.
ok. I can cope with that, though I still think we should internationalize. I just thought you were advocating leaving there and getting out of there like the last chopper out of 'Nam.Fragamemnon said:
Though, as Darien said, there's a better chance of me becoming President than of Bush going internationally for help, so, I suppose it's all moot anyways. We'll continue to fuck it up for 3 years, decide we were wrong and just leave. Hopefully they'll at least have a government close to functioning when that happens.
themadcowtipper
Smells faintly of rancid stilton.
Lonestar said:
I know when I make my trip back home to Ms Friday, I'm bringing all the gas, food, water and tools I can carry. I 'm expecting total chaos....
I've been thinking about this quote, a dramatic turnaround compared to how optimistic Phoenix was earlier in the thread.Phoenix said:
I mean, is it possible that the cleanup effort will just be too enormous to be worth it in the end? Or even feasible? Could New Orleans really cease to exist from here on out... An abandoned city underwater. God, it really could be "The New Atlantis."
Tommie Hu$tle
Member
Lonestar said:
I've heard $5/gallon gas prices in Griffin, GA.
now it's *thousands* feared dead from Katrina in New Orleans alone
http://www.breitbart.com/news/na/D8CAVBM84.html
http://www.breitbart.com/news/na/D8CAVBM84.html
Tommie Hu$tle
Member
themadcowtipper said:
I wouldn't even think of heading back to MS until you know that power has been restored.
If it hasn't been previously mentioned http://www.wwltv.com/ has helicopter flyby clips on their home page... it's fuckin heart breaking.... it's going to take years before this city recovers.... I can't even imagine the thought of this country just wiping off a city as unsavable....
EDIT:
It's like one of these disaster movies come to live... you talk about rebuilding restarting... but my god what a monumental task that's going to be... and the sad part is most of this country probably won't even notice....
These clips should be shown on national news and on major newspapers in every city... my god... I just... it's incredible...
EDIT:
It's like one of these disaster movies come to live... you talk about rebuilding restarting... but my god what a monumental task that's going to be... and the sad part is most of this country probably won't even notice....
These clips should be shown on national news and on major newspapers in every city... my god... I just... it's incredible...
Fragamemnon
Member
DarienA said:
Those shots are really depressing. The flooding is probably even worse now than it was yesterday. I couldn't help but feel that the water was reaching out and pulling the city to its depths, bit by bit.
The entire Mississippi coast looks like a nuclear bomb went off on it though. The level of devastation there is horrific in a somewhat different manner.
I think, honestly, it would be the wisest thing to do... It was a bad idea to build there in the first place... it's below sea level and built on a swamp. The city was just begging for a catastrophe, and if they rebuild in the same location, while it may not be soon, it will happen again.Teddman said:I've been thinking about this quote, a dramatic turnaround compared to how optimistic Phoenix was earlier in the thread.
I mean, is it possible that the cleanup effort will just be too enormous to be worth it in the end? Or even feasible? Could New Orleans really cease to exist from here on out... An abandoned city underwater. God, it really could be "The New Atlantis."
I cannot rationalize in my head that a city might actually be written off... I see the flyby clips and I think of everything that would have to go in to rebuildling the city...a dn I'm like.. wow... does it become some kind of fenced off no mans land? I am in awe... and you know what? I find my own personal concerns about gas prices to not be much of a big fuckin deal considering what has happened there.... I'll manage easily... some of these people though.. they now have nothing.... gas... cars.... houses... clothes... lives... memories....
EDIT: Goddamn this is breaking my heart... I'm seeing so many people of color still in the city... some in complexes just sitting there... then the camera pulls back and you see the complex is surrounded by water... then you think... no power, no phones... a guy waves at the camera... folks dragging stuff looks like from some type of storage maybe large grocery store? I don't even know if I can make it through this last clip.
EDIT: Goddamn this is breaking my heart... I'm seeing so many people of color still in the city... some in complexes just sitting there... then the camera pulls back and you see the complex is surrounded by water... then you think... no power, no phones... a guy waves at the camera... folks dragging stuff looks like from some type of storage maybe large grocery store? I don't even know if I can make it through this last clip.
Tommie Hu$tle
Member
DarienA said:
Think it's bad now wait for the snakes, gators, and fire ants to get into the city real good which I'm thinking is going to take about 2 more days.
Holy fuckin shit.......I haven't been paying attention to the news over the past couple days, and this is all new to me. How fucking depressing. It's especially depressing considering I almost went on a roadtrip to New Orleans several months ago but we backed out because of weather, and I haven't been there any many many years. And now it's gone. Makes me feel like I wanna cry.
How long before the death toll even in New Orleans rivals the Shi'ite deaths today in Baghdad, or September 11th casualty numbers, for that matter? And does the New Orleans government still think it would only take 12 to 16 weeks to make progress?
I don't seek to kindle 9/11 v. New Orleans 2005 fighting, but let me say this: what's also interesting is that despite the problems with comparing the shock of this to September 11th, it sounds more like people have skipped right past 9/11 and have gone straight to Hiroshima-caliber commentary; there's arguably no higher comparison in the recent American experience. Stupefying is the right word.
I don't seek to kindle 9/11 v. New Orleans 2005 fighting, but let me say this: what's also interesting is that despite the problems with comparing the shock of this to September 11th, it sounds more like people have skipped right past 9/11 and have gone straight to Hiroshima-caliber commentary; there's arguably no higher comparison in the recent American experience. Stupefying is the right word.
All joking aside, the last 2-3 years are turning out to be absolutely horrendous between Sudanese genocide, two wars, a monstruous tsunami that engulfed a good chunk of the globe, and now this. With regards to Darien's comments, it's only going to get worse unfortunately. NO is full of lower income people, a great chunk of which are blacks who constitute a majority of the racial make up of that city, and, coupled with the nature of the hurricane and the city's construction, they're not going to have the resources or know-how to do much of anything other than await help. Tommy echoes some real concerns that have been kicking in the back of my mind, as well.
Lo-Volt: Tragic as this is, the comparisons have been ridiculous. I've seen the Hiroshima comparisons in addition to the Asian tsuanmi from last year that killed 50,000. It's atrocious, but it's nowhere near on those levels. Yet.
And lastly, not to turn this into an Iraq thread, but in reply to whytemyke: We're already paying heavily. This administration will continue to "stay the course", which is a losing plan, if you even want to call it a "plan". There's still 3 more years under Rumsfeld and Bush, and 2 years into this war, we have less international support than ever and no intent to change the plans. Regardless if we cut and run or keep the current pace, our children and ourselves will be paying the price for decades to come.
Lo-Volt: Tragic as this is, the comparisons have been ridiculous. I've seen the Hiroshima comparisons in addition to the Asian tsuanmi from last year that killed 50,000. It's atrocious, but it's nowhere near on those levels. Yet.
And lastly, not to turn this into an Iraq thread, but in reply to whytemyke: We're already paying heavily. This administration will continue to "stay the course", which is a losing plan, if you even want to call it a "plan". There's still 3 more years under Rumsfeld and Bush, and 2 years into this war, we have less international support than ever and no intent to change the plans. Regardless if we cut and run or keep the current pace, our children and ourselves will be paying the price for decades to come.
Caption: After being plucked from New Orleans, 2,000 people waited on a highway for hours before catching a ride to a shelter. www.nytimes.com
They probably say 12 to 16 weeks because they themselves ultimately don't know how long it is going to take, and they don't want to make people even more scared and hopeless than they are at this point... and can you blame them?
Macam: Yeah, we are living in some depressing times, no denying that. I miss the 90's.
Macam: Yeah, we are living in some depressing times, no denying that. I miss the 90's.
2:20 P.M. - From Weezie Porter: WWL-TV Sales account executive. I evacuated with my family to Nashville. The people we are staying with have a relative in the Chateau Living Center in Kenner 716 Village Road. Their phone is working from time to time 504-464=0604. They report that all of the nurses have left, Only a few aides left there that have been working since Friday. They were supposed to be evacuated by bus but they did not show up. No medications have been given since Sunday,. 4 patients have died.
I'm going to have to stop following this pretty soon...
I'm going to have to stop following this pretty soon...
Phoenix
Member
Lo-Volt said:
You'd have to be retarded to believe this will be fixed in 12 or 16 weeks. Even if you could drain out the water today, and even if you could restore power today, and even if you could restore sewage today, even if you could clean up everything today, even if you could restore phone service today, even if you could get roads repaired today, even if you could get the toxic mess cleaned up today, even if you could build levees that could withstand category 5 hurricanes today, even if you could get people all of their belongings today, even if you could get the mold cleaned today, even if you could have houses rebuilt today, even if you could raise the partially sunken barges and ships in the river today, even if you could restore order today, even if you could get all your hospitals working today, even if you could get all the dead accounted for today, even if you could get all of the disease, snakes, rats, etc. today, even if you could get all of the money you possibly needed TODAY;
there is NO POSSIBLE WAY that you could get the businesses up and running and people gainfully employed in 12 to 16 weeks. I knew the city had a problem with crack, but clearly many of our politicians in New Orleans are still inhaling deeply from the crack pipe. Even if they rush it, it would be wrecklessly dangerous to even attempt to get everything 'fixed' in 12 to 16 weeks.
Am i right in assuming that many of the people still left in the flooded areas will be sick and dying within a week? i watched all the vids on that site, and saw people carrying bags of stufff from stores. One guy had a float. But as you watch the camera pan around, you see that there's nothing but rooftops for several blocks, assumedly for miles even. Where are they taking their finds to? Without electricity to keep the food cold, it'll go bad. i doubt there's many sources of clean drinking water or many people who'll know how to sanitize their available water. In addition to the gators and snakes, disease-carrying mosquitoes will worsen the situation, which'll be worse with each passing day. The videos reeked of desparation, but even moreso of futility. i seriously hope i'm wrong but i wouldn't be surprised if a few were rescued for the camera while the vast majority were just left to die.
i'm in the same boat as DarienA; this just tears me up.
i'm in the same boat as DarienA; this just tears me up.
Squirrel Killer
Member
I wonder how far into the ground your ass would be beaten if you said that to one of the rescuers.aoi tsuki said:
The reality on the cleanup:
Hurricane cleanup could take months, years
New Orleans could be underwater for quite a while, according to at least one expert, and the oil fields in the Gulf of Mexico might be under repairs for years.
The scope of the flooding following Hurricane Katrina, combined with the fact that New Orleans is below sea level, has created an engineering nightmare, according to Bob Bea, a professor of civil engineering at the University of California at Berkeley who also worked for more than 30 years in the oil and gas industry.
The extent of the damage was also exacerbated by inadequacies in the levee system and failures of other safety precautions, he added.
"You're going to have to pump out every damn drop. It could take months," he said in a phone interview. To make matters worse, it remains unclear whether the electrical emergency backup systems actually still function. If not, the prognosis is even worse because the systems are needed to power the pumps to begin the cleanup.
Cleaning up the offshore oil and chemical refineries poses even a more daunting challenge, which experts believe will lead to increases in the price of fuel. Some of the pipes extend 2,000 feet below the surface of the water, Bea said. Right now, the refinery operators likely have not even been able to get an adequate picture of the damage because evaluation crews haven't been able to get out to the facilities. Some were still in the process of cleaning up after last year's big storm, Hurricane Ivan, which struck in September.
"The first thing that happens is that you've got to rescue yourself," he said. "There are a million and a half barrels of oil shut in there a day."
Hurricane damage is sort of a personal issue for Bea. Back in 1965, he lost a house in Hurricane Betsy, a massively destructive hurricane. As the chief of offshore civil engineering for Shell, he supervised reconstruction of facilities for the oil giant after the storm.
New Orleans wasn't always below sea level, he added. Over time, however, the soils compacted and the population grew, two factors that have pushed the Crescent City under the waterline. Venice, Italy, shares a similar fate.
Following Betsy, the city and the gulf region in general began to beef up flood management systems. Canals and pumping stations were built, and the height of levees-- essentially soil dams intended to hold back floods--was increased.
Development, though, created conflicts. Channels were opened up between Lake Pontchartrain and the Gulf of Mexico to allow for ship traffic. Unfortunately, "no one thought about how this would make it easier for hurricane surges to come and go more easily," Bea said.
The political willpower and the public's willingness to pay for precautions also began to fade over time. Defensive levees should be around 18 feet tall in the region, Bea noted. Many chemical refineries built their levees to this specification, but it's far from universally applied in the region.
"In New Orleans, some are 15 feet, some are 12 feet. Some levees have degraded to 10 feet," he said. Levees are also a "weakest link" system, so that a break anywhere can create widespread problems.
And yes aoi... medical concerns for people who stayed are going to become a big issue in a very short amt of time.
Hurricane cleanup could take months, years
New Orleans could be underwater for quite a while, according to at least one expert, and the oil fields in the Gulf of Mexico might be under repairs for years.
The scope of the flooding following Hurricane Katrina, combined with the fact that New Orleans is below sea level, has created an engineering nightmare, according to Bob Bea, a professor of civil engineering at the University of California at Berkeley who also worked for more than 30 years in the oil and gas industry.
The extent of the damage was also exacerbated by inadequacies in the levee system and failures of other safety precautions, he added.
"You're going to have to pump out every damn drop. It could take months," he said in a phone interview. To make matters worse, it remains unclear whether the electrical emergency backup systems actually still function. If not, the prognosis is even worse because the systems are needed to power the pumps to begin the cleanup.
Cleaning up the offshore oil and chemical refineries poses even a more daunting challenge, which experts believe will lead to increases in the price of fuel. Some of the pipes extend 2,000 feet below the surface of the water, Bea said. Right now, the refinery operators likely have not even been able to get an adequate picture of the damage because evaluation crews haven't been able to get out to the facilities. Some were still in the process of cleaning up after last year's big storm, Hurricane Ivan, which struck in September.
"The first thing that happens is that you've got to rescue yourself," he said. "There are a million and a half barrels of oil shut in there a day."
Hurricane damage is sort of a personal issue for Bea. Back in 1965, he lost a house in Hurricane Betsy, a massively destructive hurricane. As the chief of offshore civil engineering for Shell, he supervised reconstruction of facilities for the oil giant after the storm.
New Orleans wasn't always below sea level, he added. Over time, however, the soils compacted and the population grew, two factors that have pushed the Crescent City under the waterline. Venice, Italy, shares a similar fate.
Following Betsy, the city and the gulf region in general began to beef up flood management systems. Canals and pumping stations were built, and the height of levees-- essentially soil dams intended to hold back floods--was increased.
Development, though, created conflicts. Channels were opened up between Lake Pontchartrain and the Gulf of Mexico to allow for ship traffic. Unfortunately, "no one thought about how this would make it easier for hurricane surges to come and go more easily," Bea said.
The political willpower and the public's willingness to pay for precautions also began to fade over time. Defensive levees should be around 18 feet tall in the region, Bea noted. Many chemical refineries built their levees to this specification, but it's far from universally applied in the region.
"In New Orleans, some are 15 feet, some are 12 feet. Some levees have degraded to 10 feet," he said. Levees are also a "weakest link" system, so that a break anywhere can create widespread problems.
And yes aoi... medical concerns for people who stayed are going to become a big issue in a very short amt of time.
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