I am immensely impressed with Bernie Sanders

Status
Not open for further replies.
Citizens United is the reason for the system that's existed since 1976?

Obama didn't beat Hillary in 2008 by running on a shoestring budget. At this point in the cycle he had raised $31 million vs. her $21 million in the prior quarter. (Ted Cruz is the only candidate this time around who started his campaign before this reporting quarter.)

Obama had raised $56 million in the first six months of 2007, that was more than Howard Dean raised for all of 2003 ($53 million) both operating under the press restrictions that Citizens United overturned when restoring First Amendment protections.

Let's not downplay the role Citizen's United has played in expanding this ridiculous arms race, but you are right on the money on how liberals use it as an excuse.

I hate how people act like elections are just about who can raise more money, it's simply not true. Republicans outspent Democrats in 2012 and lost. A perfectly respectable criticism of our current election system has morphed into an excuse to remove personable responsibility for the outcome of elections we do not like on the left. If people cared about voting in midterms and would better educate themselves and their friends about the consequences of staying home, we'd live in a very different country today.

Unfortunately the "Both Sides" camp is very pervasive amongst low information voters, sadly even on a site like this.
 

Pyrokai

Member
^^Still, that's insane. It just doesn't compute with me. At all.


So in general, are things headed for the better or the worse? What does GAF think?
 

injurai

Banned
Let's not downplay the role Citizen's United has played in expanding this ridiculous arms race, but you are right on the money on how liberals use it as an excuse.

I hate how people act like elections are just about who can raise more money, it's simply not true. Republicans outspent Democrats in 2012 and lost. A perfectly respectable criticism of our current election system has morphed into an excuse to remove personable responsibility for the outcome of elections we do not like on the left. If people cared about voting in midterms and would better educate themselves and their friends about the consequences of staying home, we'd live in a very different country today.

Unfortunately the "Both Sides" camp is very pervasive amongst low information voters, sadly even on a site like this.

Great post. I only know a single person in my age group who voted in the midterm elections. Of course I hope my fellow generation sort of votes against the old bastion. But really it would just be nice to see some political responsibility from people. Both my roommates stayed home to play video games. I even offered to take them multiple times. I was there and back in like 20 minutes.
 

Crisco

Banned
Bernie's a good fella, but he wouldn't be able to pass a single law even if he were elected President. He's not going to effect down-ticket races the same way Hillary can with her sure to be gargantuan war-chest, and he'll face as much opposition/obstruction from Democrats as he will from the Republicans. Hillary isn't going to win any popularity contests and she's probably not a very good person, but she represents our best shot of legislatively continuing the progressive transformation Obama started.
 

benjipwns

Banned
I hate how people act like elections are just about who can raise more money, it's simply not true.
It's been well known in political science that there's a saturation point. You obviously have to spend some amount to become known as even existing, but beyond that you gain less and less for each dollar spent.

One other thing most people don't realize is that when Hillary raises $2 billion, she won't be putting $2 billion of ads on the air. This includes campaign offices, people to staff them, and all that other infrastructure. The modern campaign is a tremendously national and 24/7 one in comparison to past campaigns, this alone requires more funding than in the past.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
It's been well known in political science that there's a saturation point. You obviously have to spend some amount to become known as even existing, but beyond that you gain less and less for each dollar spent.

One other thing most people don't realize is that when Hillary raises $2 billion, she won't be putting $2 billion of ads on the air. This includes campaign offices, people to staff them, and all that other infrastructure. The modern campaign is a tremendously national and 24/7 one in comparison to past campaigns, this alone requires more funding than in the past.

Benji this is some really good information.
 
If Bernie sanders doesn't get elected in 2016 America is fucked

Then America is fucked, cause it isn't happening.

Bernie's a good fella, but he wouldn't be able to pass a single law even if he were elected President. He's not going to effect down-ticket races the same way Hillary can with her sure to be gargantuan war-chest, and he'll face as much opposition/obstruction from Democrats as he will from the Republicans. Hillary isn't going to win any popularity contests and she's probably not a very good person, but she represents our best shot of legislatively continuing the progressive transformation Obama started.

Nod. I really don't understand the notion that electing Bernie is all the sudden going to have far reaching changes. Nothing is going to change so long as Congress is stock full of individuals who are so against progressive changes. You think they blocked Obama? Wait till Hillary or in this dream world Sanders becomes POTUS.
 

ezrarh

Member
^^Still, that's insane. It just doesn't compute with me. At all.

So in general, are things headed for the better or the worse? What does GAF think?

I think it's going to be a mixed bag. With the way our Congress is, I don't expect much movement from a federal level - states and cities will have to do things on their own. Some cities are thriving right now and some aren't so it's not like it's bad everywhere in America. The stuff Bernie is asking for like increased minimum wage is being done locally. Transit is also dependent on region too. I think American road infrastructure is overbuilt and a massive infusion of money won't necessarily solve the problem. Everybody says our roads and bridges need massive maintenance but part of the problem is that it's overbuilt and not many roads pay for themselves. Cities and states will have to decide what to keep and what to maintain which is not the end of the world. I think there's a lot of positive outlook for many cities but small town America and lesser cities will probably suffer but I'm not sure if any president can do much about that as that's a trend that's been happening for a while now.

For me, I'm okay with Hillary although I prefer Bernie because Supreme Court judges matter but I don't expect a democratic House until 2020 (hoping I'm wrong) so I can't imagine we will see any dramatic policy changes until then.
 
Based on what I'm reading, I'm starting to think that Bernie is the new Ron Paul.

As in... He's gonna get a bunch of people fired up, and absolutely nothing will come of it.

Although Paul did kinda result in the Tea party happening. Maybe we'll get some socialist equivalent. I guess that would be kinda neat.
 

Yamauchi

Banned
Based on what I'm reading, I'm starting to think that Bernie is the new Ron Paul.

As in... He's gonna get a bunch of people fired up, and absolutely nothing will come of it.

Although Paul did kinda result in the Tea party happening. Maybe we'll get some socialist equivalent. I guess that would be kinda neat.
Bernie is polling more than 3 times higher nationally than Ron Paul ever did.
 
Then America is fucked, cause it isn't happening.



Nod. I really don't understand the notion that electing Bernie is all the sudden going to have far reaching changes. Nothing is going to change so long as Congress is stock full of individuals who are so against progressive changes. You think they blocked Obama? Wait till Hillary or in this dream world Sanders becomes POTUS.

Assuming it happens, it would normalize the idea of people and politicians like him with his sorts of ideas. He doesn't even have to be elected. If he posted serious number to take the primary, than even if he lost, people would know that these ideas have alot of support. The democrats have run on the idea that they need to stick to the center and that they aren't going to win by being more liberal. A candidate like Bernie Sanders doing well in the primary or winning the election would change that.

Think about this. Imagine hearing that we could have a black or female president very soon years back. Many people would say that they would be fine with that, but didn't see it happening anytime soon. But Obama and Clinton change that idea. Even if Clinton didn't win in 2008, and even if she doesn't win this time, the very idea opens the door for more people. And I totally understand it's not entirely the same situation, but the comparison stands.

That's actually the most realistic yet good outcome to me. Sanders gets at least 30% or another significant chunk, and the Democratic Party knows that it has got a base of liberal liberals, a base that doesn't like the center candidates. And maybe next time, we get Sanders again, or even someone else, and he has 35%, and then 45%, etc, showing that people support these ideas and want a candidate with these ideas.

But if even the people who support him won't even vote for him in the primaries because they're scared that he's going to win the primary and lose the general election, he has no shot, and the Democrats are going to continue to run on the idea of attracting more conservative voters to their side and staying center. We can keep getting Clintons and the like for eternity, because *gasp*, a Republican might win.

It's that sort of rhetoric that makes me think a Clinton loss in the general while Sanders does pretty good in the primary could be enough to force the Democratic party out of its center orientation. Democrats might realize that people don't want another fucking establishment candidate.
And before people get on my case about how I'm horrible for this idea and ought to stripped of my voting rights because I want a a 9 person Justice Scalia Supreme Court, I'm saying I understand the sentiment. Won't be able to vote in time for the next election anyways
 

benjipwns

Banned
Bernie is polling more than 3 times higher nationally than Ron Paul ever did.
No, he's not. He's at around 15%.

In a field where the other three candidates are Martin O'Malley, Jim Webb, and Lincoln Chafee. (Plus Biden.)

Ron Paul was at 15% in late January and early February 2012. During actual primaries. He wound up with 11% of the popular vote in a four way race.
 

benjipwns

Banned
That's actually the most realistic yet good outcome to me. Sanders gets at least 30%, and the Democratic Party knows that it has got a base of liberal liberals, a base that doesn't like the center candidates. And maybe next time, we get Sanders again, or even someone else, and he has 35%, and then 45%, etc, showing that people support these ideas and want a candidate with these ideas.

But if even the people who support him won't even vote for him in the primaries because they're scared that he's going to win the primary and lose the general election, he has no shot, and the Democrats are going to continue to run on the idea of attracting more conservative voters to their side and staying center. We can keep getting Clintons and the like for eternity, because a Republican might win.
McGovern, Mondale, Dukakis. That's what the Democratic Party fears.
 

JustenP88

I earned 100 Gamerscore™ for collecting 300 widgets and thereby created Trump's America
I don't know that anyone said Bernie would swoop in and turn America super liberal immediately so I'm not sure why that keeps getting parroted. The exciting thing, to me, about a potential Sanders presidency is that I doubt he'll be afraid to start discussions over his liberal ideals. After 4-8 years of a Sanders presidency Obama would going to look like a Republican by comparison. I think that could go a long way towards pulling our right to the left and getting the Republicans to field some reasonable candidates.

Maybe the Republicans will find their own way back towards sanity, but I don't know that Hillary would force their hand. They were supposed to lose this election. No biggie. But losing to a SOCIALIST?! "Holy shit... Maybe we are out of touch."

EDIT: hyperactivity did it better.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Two of those guys ran against the 2nd and 3rd Reagan terms
Yeah, but the Democrats had much more moderate options like Glenn/Gore/Hart/Babbitt running.

Mondale gave multiple speeches proudly boasting about his plans for tax raises. Many of the Democratic debates of those two elections turned into people trying to out tax raise each other. We can even include the Kennedy revolt against Carter in this list, since Carter originally won by taking advantage of the primary calendar more than he won by being popular in the party. George Wallace, Scoop Jackson, Ed Muskie, McGovern and Humphrey were the "wanted" Democrats, with Udall being the one who took over when those latter three dropped out.

The long introspection the Democrats did after 1984 was the start of the DLC, and the one after 1988 gave them Bill Clinton. Even 2004 and 2008 showed heavy party fear of breaking too far from that model, Dean being the most prominent example and Kerry's ultimate strength.
 

Jonm1010

Banned
1. The current system isnt working. I dont see how hitting reset is a problem. Trump as president would mean change.

2. The president cant just put whoever he wants in the court. There is an approval process. Trump as president would mean gridlock. He wouldnt get a single nomination through, so wed be ok.

Trump getting elected is not only NOT a guarantee of a reset button, it is further entrenching of the already existing problems. You need to do more then make an assertion to actually find anyone that will but that crazy logic.

You really think the supreme court will sit empty for four years? It won't Trump would get whoever he wanted(within reason) confirmed by the simple majority in the senate. Which may end up being Republican.

You are ridiculously naiive.
 

benjipwns

Banned
http://thefederalist.com/2015/07/08/bernie-sanders-is-the-future-of-the-democratic-party/
Bernie Sanders Is The Future Of The Democratic Party
Maybe Bernie-mania! will finally lift the stigma of 'socialism' so we can have an honest debate.

“The rise of Bernie Sanders is proving awkward for the Democratic Party,” contends Politico in a recent piece about the surprisingly popular socialist presidential candidate.

Well, maybe it’s not that surprising. And it’s probably not that awkward. Politico could have just as easily declared: The rise of Bernie Sanders is a completely predictable outcome of the Democratic Party’s trajectory. Or, maybe, the rise of Bernie Sanders portends a socialistic future for the Democratic Party.

After all, while the press had fun detailing every rightward lurch of the conservative movement, not only has the “socialist surge” been a restive force within Democratic Party politics during the Obama Age, it’s been making tremendous policy progress.

Although we rarely frame politics in these terms, as a philosophical matter, we’ve often been engaged in a debate that pits the theories of eighteenth-century liberalism—the kind that brought us the constitution and limited government—against ideas first embraced in nineteenth-century Marxism. Is there any doubt the Left’s grassroots is driven by the latter, whether it’s intuitively or on purpose? Just think about the emotional core (often confused as an intellectual position), the rhetoric, and the focus that propels most ideas liberal toss around about inequality, plutocracy, “democracy” and role of government in our lives.

...

Sanders correctly points out that his positions on higher minimum wage, pay equity, and other state interference in markets enjoy high approval rating with most voters. “It is not a radical agenda,” he says. “In virtually every instance, what I’m saying is supported by a significant majority of the American people.”

This is almost true.

What is wholly true is that big majorities within the Democratic Party support these policies and they would probably go a lot further if they could. Hillary is lucky there isn’t a more compelling and charismatic candidate making a more comprehensive socialistic case to Americans as there was the last time around. The difference between her adopted position and his real one is scope.

That’s not to say Democrats are unadulterated socialists, sitting around and studying communist theorists in their spare time, any more than small-government conservatives are opposed to every state-run program. But today, many prefer policies that would be referred to as socialist anywhere else in the world. And the stigma attached to the word is slowly, and fittingly, disintegrating.

...

So the awkwardness surrounding Sanders’ candidacy—one that is supposed to make Hillary seem more reasonable—is that he is running with almost indistinguishable philosophical positions from the front-runner.

...

Now, of course, Sanders will not win the Democratic Party nomination. I’m skeptical he’s even as popular as polls claim. Still, he’s moved to the ideological center of the Democratic Party without changing at all. So will his ideas. Democrats will not pull back once they get their $10 minimum wage. They will not be content once universal pre-K is passed. They will not be satiated after the next round of unilateral Environmental Protection Agency intrusions into the energy markets are instituted. And liberals will not never concede that health care is now working so we won’t need any more government involvement.

Liberals may not believe in controlling the means of production, but many do believe in tightening controls enough through regulatory regimes and laws that they can dictate the outcome in markets they do care about. When the downturn hit us, Americans witnessed an unprecedented array of interventions, producing the weakest recovery in history. When oil prices spiked, and the populist rage against energy companies was reaching a crescendo, a Rasmussen poll found that a plurality of Democrats (37 percent) supported outright nationalization of the oil companies. When the health-care debate was at its most overwrought, a New York Times/CBS News poll found a majority supporting a government-run insurance company.

Today, almost every major liberal interst group supports some sort of enhanced collectivism. The notion that we have inherent rights—without even mentioning economic freedom—are laughed at by Left as if it were some sort of antiquated or alien concoction. Even positions that could be argued on grounds of individual freedom, like gay marriage, are now deteriorating into acts of coercion.

Over at Commentary, Noah Rothman points out the double standard in the media’s coverage of Todd Akin and Bernie Sanders. He’s right. The contradictory coverage is, no doubt, in part due to some in the media finding Sanders’ economic philosophy far more palatable than Akin’s offensive pseudoscientific mumbo jumbo. But it has to be said that Akin’s comments were much farther out of the mainstream on the Right than Sanders’ positions are on the Left. And the efforts to remedy the supposed moral imperfections of capitalism through force has led to more pain and suffering than anything Akin could ever say. Sanders might be treated as an outlier. But really, it’s more likely he’s the future.
 
I wonder

If Donald Trump won the nomination, would people have higher hopes?

Would the threat of "President Trump" be great enough that America will band together under a *gulp* socialist?
 

I think the idea that Bernie represents the future of the Democratic party has merit and there are good points that many of what he wants policy wise are popular amongst the party itself, even if it doesn't want to admit it.

But I'm confused by this

So the awkwardness surrounding Sanders’ candidacy—one that is supposed to make Hillary seem more reasonable—is that he is running with almost indistinguishable philosophical positions from the front-runner.

Is the article trying to claim that Hillary holds similar values as Bernie, just that she's not as upfront about it? In terms of campaign finance and voting record, that's shown not to be the case, as Hillary has openly accepted Super PACs and voted in favor things like the Patriot Act. Perhaps I'm just reading this wrong.
 

Africanus

Member
I wonder

If Donald Trump won the nomination, would people have higher hopes?

Would the threat of "President Trump" be great enough that America will band together under a *gulp* socialist?

Without a doubt.
If Donald Trump wins the nomination, I really hope Bernard Sanders is right besides him.

It'd be very easy to play up his connections to the past in civil rights to demonstrate to minorities why he'd help now. For once, a politician has a positive track record.
I feel his age, rather than his socialism, would be the biggest determent.

All part of his plan since the sixties.
 
T

thepotatoman

Unconfirmed Member
I wonder

If Donald Trump won the nomination, would people have higher hopes?

Would the threat of "President Trump" be great enough that America will band together under a *gulp* socialist?

I have absolutely no doubt that Sanders would win against Trump. I'm also very confident neither will win the nomination.

It can't be understated how disliked Trump is among democrats and republicans alike. Maybe he can find his way into first in the polls thanks to a split vote between a dozen of candidates, but as candidates drop out and votes consolidate, there's no chance for Trump to come out ahead in the end.
 

NeoXChaos

Member
Without a doubt.
If Donald Trump wins the nomination, I really hope Bernard Sanders is right besides him.

It'd be very easy to play up his connections to the past in civil rights to demonstrate to minorities why he'd help now. For once, a politician has a positive track record.
I feel his age, rather than his socialism, would be the biggest determent.

All part of his plan since the sixties.

Neither will get the nomination. Trump will flame out as votes are cast. Sanders will slam into a wall as votes are cast and the calendar goes on.
 
Today, almost every major liberal interst group supports some sort of enhanced collectivism. The notion that we have inherent rights—without even mentioning economic freedom—are laughed at by Left as if it were some sort of antiquated or alien concoction. Even positions that could be argued on grounds of individual freedom, like gay marriage, are now deteriorating into acts of coercion.

How fucking dumb, stupid, and ignorant do you have to be to even agree with, or write down this thought?

Inherent rights laughed at by the left? Is that the reason the left has been right on every single major social issue for the past three centuries? That woman and african american do have the right to vote, that woman have the right to choose, that gays do have the right to marry (coercion, fucking lol), that people do have the right to drink alcohol, that people do have the right to do drugs if they want to.

That coercion line. That is some next level stupid. Benji I'm genuinely curious, do you actually agree with this part of the article? Would you call it coercion if "freedom of speech" was thrust upon the people? (and by thrust upon, I mean upheld by the SCOTUS)
 

benjipwns

Banned
If I have any level of agreement with a part of the three sentences you quoted from the article it's in the middle one.
 

benjipwns

Banned
Anthony Weiner has a question for Bernie Sanders...
Sanders has been drawing crowds of thousands at his rallies and is quickly becoming the main primary rival of Democratic frontrunner Hillary Clinton. I totally get Bernie Mania. However, I’m deeply conflicted about it.

My wife works for Hillary so there’s that. But I’m also torn because I don’t really understand what he is doing.

I served with Bernie and he is my kind of politician — a progressive guy with some New York City attitude. It’s hard not to love Bernie Sanders. The Brooklyn accent perfected at Madison High School and Brooklyn College and the rumpled mad scientist look are perfect compliments to his colorful and unyielding presentations.

Still, I have one major question for Bernie. What exactly does he think he’s doing in a Democratic presidential primary? Why is he asking for the nomination of a party he always avoided joining?
Independent Bernie Sanders seemed to like this question. He probably got it a lot. He would tell me that I shouldn’t confuse the fact that our voting records generally matched with party agreement. He was a proud socialist and thought the institutional Democratic Party was too cautious and lacking imagination. As much as I prodded, I would never get him to think about joining the Democrats for a moment.

In fact, Bernie always got me fired up to make the fighting wing of the Democratic Party feistier. So much so, that I loved it when my less clever right wing opponents would decry Obamacare as “socialism”. Bernie and I would remind these blockheads that giving people tax credits to buy a product from a giant corporation is hardly socialist.

There’s no question Bernie’s leftist agitating is filling a void in this primary process. The Democratic Party has a strong primal scream element right now. It expresses itself in frustration that the high expectations of change that came with President Obama have not been met. It howls at the failure of candidates who hew to the middle of the road and it feels the need to counter the batshit crazy it sees dominating the debate on the other side of the aisle.

Our party needs a kick in the butt. Sen. Elizabeth Warren (D-Massachusetts), Paul Krugman, and Jon Stewart are currently the standard bearers for that sentiment.

But Bernie Sanders? I just don’t know.
After a career of steadfastly insisting that the Democratic party was not his home, now he wants to not only be a member of the party but its standard bearer? What changed?

Is Bernie’s newfound party affiliation just a practical decision to run in a party that can win rather than risk being a Nader-esque spoiler on a third party line in November? That’s a fair calculation, but doesn’t it wipe away Bernie’s three decades of standing as a principled Socialist?

Many times over the course of his career Bernie has repeated the line that his independence made him more able to speak truth. He argued forcefully that being a Socialist was his identity and not function of political expediency. Well, duh, nobody chooses to be a Socialist to smooth their political path. Yet, as 2016 approaches, here he is filing papers all over the country presumably declaring himself a member of the Democratic Party.

Bernie is right about a lot of things. He is right that a Medicare for All health care program is a simpler, cheaper and more American solution to our health care needs than a jury rigged system that is better under Obamacare but still has too many gaps. And his battle cry on behalf of working Americans is almost as good as Hillary Clinton’s.

In spite of all this, if Bernie wants to lead this party, he needs to explain what he's doing here in the first place.
 

Rootbeer

Banned
Bernie is on the right side of the issues and deserves the nom. Good post, OP. I hope his popularity begins to skyrocket and we can have our first REAL progressive candidate in my lifetime.
 
Bernie is on the right side of the issues and deserves the nom. Good post, OP. I hope his popularity begins to skyrocket and we can have our first REAL progressive candidate in my lifetime.

Whether he deserves it or not is completely besides the point. It's not happening.
 

chaosblade

Unconfirmed Member
Whether he deserves it or not is completely besides the point. It's not happening.

Of course he won't, but it's still nice to enjoy the illusion. Any candidate that "deserves it" is never going to get nominated, the system is designed to keep people out.
 

Josh7289

Member
How fucking dumb, stupid, and ignorant do you have to be to even agree with, or write down this thought?

Inherent rights laughed at by the left? Is that the reason the left has been right on every single major social issue for the past three centuries? That woman and african american do have the right to vote, that woman have the right to choose, that gays do have the right to marry (coercion, fucking lol), that people do have the right to drink alcohol, that people do have the right to do drugs if they want to.

That coercion line. That is some next level stupid. Benji I'm genuinely curious, do you actually agree with this part of the article? Would you call it coercion if "freedom of speech" was thrust upon the people? (and by thrust upon, I mean upheld by the SCOTUS)

Regarding that middle sentence, I'm an economic socialist and I'm libertarian regarding civil rights, but I also don't think there are any such things as inherent or natural rights. There is no god to dispense such rights. I of course believe strongly in human and civil rights, but those only exist because we've defined them and decided to protect them; there's nothing inherent in humanity about them at all. They're our creations, and I don't see anything wrong with that. It doesn't negatively affect my desire to protect and expand them. If anything, it strengthens that desire.
 

benjipwns

Banned
There is no god to dispense such rights. I of course believe strongly in human and civil rights, but those only exist because we've defined them and decided to protect them; there's nothing inherent in humanity about them at all.
You don't need a god or anyone else to grant you rights (indeed, they're privileges if granted, not rights) and the case for their inherentness can easily be shown with the old desert island trope.

The denial of inherent rights is what allows them to be so easily violated because this one or that one doesn't count or this duty supersedes your rights or these people think you shouldn't have rights because [X]. Or even worse they don't count because the person isn't actually human.
 
D

Deleted member 231381

Unconfirmed Member
You don't need a god or anyone else to grant you rights (indeed, they're privileges if granted, not rights) and the case for their inherentness can easily be shown with the old desert island trope.

i laughed
 
If I have any level of agreement with a part of the three sentences you quoted from the article it's in the middle one.

Regarding that middle sentence, I'm an economic socialist and I'm libertarian regarding civil rights, but I also don't think there are any such things as inherent or natural rights. There is no god to dispense such rights. I of course believe strongly in human and civil rights, but those only exist because we've defined them and decided to protect them; there's nothing inherent in humanity about them at all. They're our creations, and I don't see anything wrong with that. It doesn't negatively affect my desire to protect and expand them. If anything, it strengthens that desire.

The quote in question wasn't about whether or not we possessed inherent rights. It was whether or not the left laughs at such a notion. I'll report the sentence.

The notion that we have inherent rights are laughed at by Left as if it were some sort of antiquated or alien concoction

What can be provided as evidence that this statement is true? Has there been any party platform advanced by the democrats that says inherent rights don't exist? Any poll that finds a majority of the left doesn't think inherent rights exist? And this is coming from someone who is a liberal and thinks inherent rights don't actually exist. I just know that my views don't reflect that of the left.

Since you guys are discussing rights though it's important to note why they have value. Rights should exist as a means of proscribing governmental behavior (telling them what they can't do to us) and as a means of instilling a culture in society that causes us to treat eachother with dignity and respect on an internalized level. At least that's how I feel about rights.
 

BowieZ

Banned
Whether he deserves it or not is completely besides the point. It's not happening.
Your predictions are also beside the point, except perhaps so far as to be a self fulfilling prophecy.

What IS the point is grass roots and message spreading, and also probably Hillary getting hog-tied in a scandal.
 
What Libertarians rarely understand is that the idea that a state of affairs being non-governmentally coerced in nature does not necessarily make it more or less an exemplar of liberty. If a people are able to bring about particular changes, not doing so is as much a collective choice as doing so.

A hand is inherent. A society could chop both off at birth, but that does not change the reality of them having been there. Rights are not inherent. Recognizing them or not is a choice, as the historical and anthropological record shows. This makes them more important to uphold, not less.
 

dramatis

Member
Given that Weiner's wife is Hillary's #1 personal aide, I doubt he's the most objective observer out there.
He acknowledges that even in the excerpt benji posted. Weiner is expressing his confusion at why Bernie is suddenly asking for Dem support and nomination when Bernie long stood apart from the party.

If you think about it, it's probably a bit weird. However, I think it's great that the Democratic primaries could have independents too and give them a platform to attract attention and votes. Admittedly Bernie probably had to switch affiliation to Dem to get in. The Republicans were 'sort of' generous in this regard too considering they let Ron Paul onstage. But Ron Paul was a Republican for a long time, unlike Bernie.
 

Indicate

Member
Washington State Democratic Caucus Endorses Bernie Sanders

On July 11, 2015, the Washington State Progressive Caucus (WSPC) held a special meeting for the purpose of considering an endorsement of Senator Bernie Sanders for President of the United States. Members of the Progressive Caucus, including members from legislative districts and congressional districts all over Washington state, voted unanimously in favor of the endorsement.

This endorsement by the WSPC should NOT be construed to represent the official position of the Washington State Democratic Party.

Delegates of the Washington State Democratic Party to the Democratic Party National Convention will be selected at Precinct Caucuses in March 2016. We urge all progressives to attend your local precinct caucus and vote for Bernie Sanders to be the nominee of the Democratic Party for President of the United States. For more information on how you can become a delegate for Bernie and/or help others become delegates for Bernie, visit the following web page.
http://washingtonforberniesanders.com/how-to-become-a-delegate-for-bernie-sanders

Bernie Sanders is our best hope to restore our democracy and rebuild our economy. Join our campaign and help us help Bernie win here in Washington state.
 
Big fan of Bernie, but unless he can find a way to energize minority voters he's not going to take the primary from Hillary.

Obama, Clinton, Bush, etc are all cut from the same corporate mold.

They say different things but at the end of the day the result is the same, less money for us, more money for rich corporations.

It's all about using your money and giving it to military corporations.

I for one am tired of that.

A vote for Hillary is a vote for the Reagan era

Is this sarcasm? Or are you honestly so ignorant of politics and current events that you actually think Bush and Hillary are equivalent?

Do you even understand what the Reagan era was, and what it stood for?

Hillary does not support institutionalized racism through a privatized prison industrial complex. She does not favor the destabilization of regional balances of power in order to advance the military industrial complex. She does not support the gutting of our nation's mental health networks. She is not, by any stretch of the imagination, a supply-side advocate.
 
$$$

GCOVi0J.png


Of course, that shouldn't stop people from voting for whom they truly want to be president, but then you get into the whole "well I need to vote for X so that Y doesn't win" mentality.

Ha, that's a lot of banks for Hilldawg, so much for regulating the banking system any time soon. Also, if someone can speak on the matter... Why are entertainment corps and University of California (Is that the school system that's donating) donating to Hilldawg?
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom