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I finally worked out why Dark Knight Rises irritates me (spoilers)

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tomtom94

Member
Note: This isn't about the action or the plot, per se. It will involve politics. Just a heads up. I still think Dark Knight Rises is a good film, probably a three and a half or four star movie depending on how generous I feel about the plot. The effects are some of the best in the series and it's generally engaging but drags towards the end. Just so we're clear.

Warning: amateur film criticism follows. It's quite long because I wanted it to be thorough. But basically I was re-watching TDKR because it's on Amazon Prime and I finally hit upon what it is that unreasonably annoys me even though I think the film itself is alright. I'll do a short version and then expand on what I mean.

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Short version: Dark Knight Rises pretends the 2008 recession didn't happen, but uses the cultural anger about it at the time to flavour its villains, resulting in a movie where the supposed ideological conflict is fundamentally dishonest.

What does that mean? First off, there are two basic premises:

Premise 1: The villains in The Dark Knight Rises evoke Western political anger after the 2008 recession.

Bane attacks a stock exchange, kidnapping bankers off the trading room floor and criticising them for their profession ("There's no money!" "Then why are you here?"). Selina Kyle, at the beginning, warns Bruce Wayne that there is a 'storm coming' for the rich. When Bane takes control of Gotham, he refers to "overthrowing the elites" and appeals to the "masses" who he intends to "liberate"; he refers to Blackgate Prison as a "symbol of oppression". The first target of Scarecrow's court is sentenced to death on account of growing rich off the mistreatment of his workers. All of this is very similar to rhetoric heard, particularly on the left-wing of politics, in the immediate years following the 2008 financial crisis.

In so far as authorial intention counts, Christopher Nolan noticed the similarities with Occupy Wall Street (even if the movie was written before OWS was a thing) and considered filming a protest to use in the film but ultimately chose not to do so.

Premise 2: The 2008 recession did not adversely affect the Gotham seen in the film.

At the start of the film, Gotham - filmed in and a kind of micro-cosm of American urban centres - is in the midst of a sort of "golden age". Gordon may be forcibly retired because the "war" on crime is over and it is now "peacetime". Before Bane shows up, the streets are clean thanks to Dent and Gordon's work in Dark Knight. Wayne Enterprises' struggles are internal, a struggle at the boardroom level; no mention is made of the potential impact of the financial crisis on the workforce.

Part of the problem with this is it is less what the film shows and more what it chooses not to show. For instance, the film is primarily focussed on characters in the upper stratum of society (the closest to an 'ordinary' viewpoint is probably Detective Blake, a member of the police force; or Selina Kyle's partner in crime, a character who exists primarily so that Kyle can disown her later and complete her turn to the 'good side'). Crucially, however, we are never shown the equivalent of a "turning point" - a reason for Bane and Talia to start Occupy Gotham, so to speak.

This is important because the other two films in the Dark Knight Saga have very strongly-defined ideological conflicts at their core. Batman Begins is a film where the hero and villain battle over the use of symbols to inspire either fear and destruction or hope and stability. The Dark Knight is a film where the hero and villain battle over whether ordinary people choose anarchy or order when confronted with a threat.

Premise 3: The villains in Dark Knight Rises attack Gotham for no reason.

The film compares Bane and Talia's anger to that of anti-Wall Street protestors - a moral crusade, in other words. But it leaves out any motivation for that anger. Their stated motivation is so they can finish the work of Ra's Al Ghul, the villain from Batman Begins. But Ra's Al Ghul wanted to destroy Gotham because the Narrows had started to take over the city, causing a rise in crime and unemployment. Gotham's moral decay gave him a reason to want to destroy Gotham which was in conflict with Bruce Wayne's desire to save it so that it could recover. The Gotham seen in Dark Knight Rises is shown as a functioning, almost idyllic city. This means that Bane and Talia's attempt to destroy it is essentially out of spite.

It probably doesn't need re-stating, but in the real world, the real world which TDKR evokes, there were reasons why people became angry at the time this movie was being written. Jobs were lost, food prices rose, savings were wiped out, homes were re-possessed, bankers were rewarded for failure, etcetera. None of this is seen in the film. The film shows the anger, but doesn't examine it in any fashion - the anger at bankers, the wealthy, and the élite simply exists, as flavour for the film's world, rather than being questioned in any way.

(Warning: we're going to be getting into the murky waters of how people perceive culture and I just want to be clear - I'm not suggesting that right-wing political views in film are inherently a bad thing, Dark Knight is one of my favourite films of all time, I think that left-wing films can be just as guilty of this sort of thing, and using films to talk about politics can be a force for good. I'm just pointing out the problems with this specific film and what its decisions ultimately say about the politics it uses)

The result is a film which, ultimately, suggests a paranoid right-wing fantasy of left-wing politics. (Consider at this point also The Dark Knight's usage of extraordinary rendition, surveillance, and arguably torture)

Bane and Talia start a violent revolution of the established social order for no better reason than they want to destroy something good. The rich and powerful are then sentenced to death in a series of show trials; when Gordon questions this he is told it is "the authority of the people"*. Whistleblowing, for the second time in the saga (see also how Reese is treated in Dark Knight), is portrayed as a cowardly or dangerous thing to do. Most of all, Bane and Talia are shown to be disingenuous hypocrites who preach "liberation" but run a police state and pretend that they will save Gotham when they intend to destroy it. All of this leads up to the moment when the brave hero will save Gotham.

(On Twitter, I called it a 'post-recession fantasy for the 1%')

*An interesting example of a mis-step in the film is the fact that the first person to be sentenced is one of Daggett's henchmen. Are we supposed to root for the villains sentencing this man to death for what sound like actual crimes or root for the henchman to survive? It is kind of unclear.

Pointing out that Bruce Wayne, a billionaire, is the "good guy" is a bit obvious, but note also Selina Kyle's journey. At the beginning, she is on the side of what she calls the "rest of us", attacking Wayne and his rich friends. Mid-way through the movie she becomes horrified at what Bane has done and switches sides, ultimately falling in love with Bruce and retiring with him. Siding with the status quo is the most positive thing, in the movie's universe, that one can do. But the status quo in The Dark Knight Rises is fundamentally different from the real world which the writers used to soup up their villains.

Basically, the movie claims that its conflict is "change versus stability". But it represents "change" by inserting analogues for real-life grievances to have them tilt at windmills.

Conclusions

The Dark Knight Rises sets out an ideological conflict of "status quo versus upheaval" where the status quo is unquestioningly good and upheaval - represented by Talia, Bane, and the sort of "Occupy Gotham" that they lead - is inherently linked to destruction. In and of itself this is not necessarily a bad thing and indeed such a conflict is at the heart of many (some would say all) superhero films. But more irritatingly it takes ideas from the real world - specifically, public anger at the wealthy and élite that sprung up after the recession - and places them in a fantasy world which deprives them of context, turning it into a fight between a billionaire who wants to protect the city because it's good versus a group of villains who want to destroy it because that's what 'the left' do. By painting an extremely warped vision of America circa 2010, it sells its own narrative short.

tl;dr: You know that "Aug Lives Matter" controversy about the new Deus Ex? This is kind of like that: it takes a real-life movement or grievance, deprives it of context, and uses it as surface-level flavour rather than actually engaging with the cultural problem at the heart of the issue like good fiction can do.

On another note, while I like the film, Christian Bale's performance is rubbish

tumblr_m8h5k64I331qeiocm.gif
 
Speculation that the global economic recession and the Occupy Wall Street were the inspiration for the final movie in Christopher Nolans' Batman trilogy have been dismissed by both the director and his co-scenarist brother Jonathan.

The script had in fact been decided on before these events. Instead the two acknowledged that the inspiration for the movie came from A Tale of Two Cities, Charles Dickens' classic novel about the French revolution.
 

WedgeX

Banned
(On Twitter, I called it a 'post-recession fantasy for the 1%')

That's pretty good.

I felt similarly, OP. Although nowhere near as articulately.

Its a sad change from where Batman had learned about people in poverty and crime during Begins.
 
Good OP. I was also bothered by the way the villains were portrayed, but never managed to put my finger on the fact that I was specifically bothered by the difference in status quo between the world of the movie and the real world. That's a very interesting point.
 

this_guy

Member
The unarmed cops charging at the criminals with machine guns like they were in Braveheart or something was pretty dumb.
 
Hahah man.

I love Nolan, but I can't for the life of me understand why he released the movie with that scene as is.

I think since Nolan shoots on film (not like digital where you can rewind and view on spot) and is very efficient with his takes he probably thought it looked good with his eye. It was probably when they saw the dallies printed next day they must have realised what a crap take it was but could not go back to change it due to logistics/time.
 

wildfire

Banned
Speculation that the global economic recession and the Occupy Wall Street were the inspiration for the final movie in Christopher Nolans' Batman trilogy have been dismissed by both the director and his co-scenarist brother Jonathan.

The script had in fact been decided on before these events. Instead the two acknowledged that the inspiration for the movie came from A Tale of Two Cities, Charles Dickens' classic novel about the French revolution.


The French Revolution?

That makes the op more poignant and the movies themes even dumber.
 

Ralemont

not me
It's a good point that you don't see much of Gotham from the poor point of view, but you forget this lesson during your premises and I think it undercuts the last two.

You don't need a 2008 recession for the have-nots to get angry and want to rise against the have's. Gotham is shown to be an idyllic city from the rich point of view. The disparity between the rich and poor that you rightly point out is the League of Shadows' motivation for destroying Gotham never goes away, it's just that it wasn't the conflict of the Dark Knight. It's never suggested that class relations have improved or that any of the economic imbalance was alleviated. As such, I don't know why I wouldn't believe that the League of Shadows still wants Gotham destroyed, nor do I find it hard to believe that the economically oppressed would, after encountering someone preaching moral righteousness of rebellion and having the muscle to enforce it, follow someone promising to change things.

I don't think the lesson of the DKR is that the status quo must be protected. I think the lesson is that, sort of like Occupy Wall Street which began as a reaction against very specific criminal actions and ended up as pure ressentiment and in sad cases outright laziness, rebellions and causes can be co-opted to destructive purpose. Bane wasn't on the side of the rich or poor, he wanted to destroy them all, and the conditions of Gotham paved the way for the trod-on to follow him in spite of it. Ultimately Selina Kyle doesn't choose the status quo, she chooses self-sacrifice and protecting people over greed and looking out for herself. It's telling that her line to Wayne was "you don't owe these people anything" as she's convincing him to follow her. She reveals that she doesn't actually identify herself with the lower class of Gotham, that was just a cover for her to feel justified in robbing the rich. Her arc is one where she stops thinking about herself and starts thinking about others, at least insofar as she's willing to save Batman from Bane.

My only problem with DKR is Talia, really. Movie would have been better with just Bane, and I think that's not an unpopular sentiment.
 
Interesting perspective, but my criticism of the film isn't quite as politically charged as that.

Quite simply, the movie has several unnecessary characters, is about 30 minutes longer than it needs to be, filled with clunky expository dialogue, and contains illogical character decisions for the sake of plot convenience.

It's a 3/5 movie.
 
As far as the premise goes, they toy a lot with the idea of Batman coming to an end/passing on the torch. I think a more straight forward adaptation of Knightfall would have been more interesting. Like, what happens if you really do pass on the persona, but the next person is some sadistic nut job who doesn't possess the values you tried to instill?
 

Fuchsdh

Member
It's a good point that you don't see much of Gotham from the poor point of view, but you forget this lesson during your premises and I think it undercuts the last two.

You don't need a 2008 recession for the have-nots to get angry and want to rise against the have's. Gotham is shown to be an idyllic city from the rich point of view. The disparity between the rich and poor that you rightly point out is the League of Shadows' motivation for destroying Gotham never goes away, it's just that it wasn't the conflict of the Dark Knight. It's never suggested that class relations have improved or that any of the economic imbalance was alleviated. As such, I don't know why I wouldn't believe that the League of Shadows still wants Gotham destroyed, nor do I find it hard to believe that the economically oppressed would, after encountering someone preaching moral righteousness of rebellion and having the muscle to enforce it, follow someone promising to change things.

I don't think the lesson of the DKR is that the status quo must be protected. I think the lesson is that, sort of like Occupy Wall Street which began as a reaction against very specific criminal actions and ended up as pure ressentiment and in sad cases outright laziness, rebellions and causes can be co-opted to destructive purpose. Bane wasn't on the side of the rich or poor, he wanted to destroy them all, and the conditions of Gotham paved the way for the trod-on to follow him in spite of it. Ultimately Selina Kyle doesn't choose the status quo, she chooses self-sacrifice and protecting people over greed and looking out for herself. It's telling that her line to Wayne was "you don't owe these people anything" as she's convincing him to follow her. She reveals that she doesn't actually identify herself with the lower class of Gotham, that was just a cover for her to feel justified in robbing the rich. Her arc is one where she stops thinking about herself and starts thinking about others, at least insofar as she's willing to save Batman from Bane.

My only problem with DKR is Talia, really. Movie would have been better with just Bane, and I think that's not an unpopular sentiment.

Yep. The Gotham in TDKR is "fixed" from the perspective of the elites; the crime bosses no longer run the city and the streets aren't filled with crime, but like the US post-recession just because crime actually dropped didn't mean people weren't hurting.

To me the issues with the movie are far more about the mechanics and dumb stuff (like the fact that illegal trades are allowed to stand and everything that pushes Wayne out of his company, the whole flying around the world and holding a city hostage that the wider world does nothing about, the cops charging without guns and being fine, etc.) than the wider themes. TDK didn't really engage too much with its issue of when and who can violate civil rights beyond token stuff with Morgan Freeman's character; all the films don't grapple with a lot of interesting stuff beyond their central conceits. Neither TDK nor Batman Begins get that lack of engagement held up as their major flaw, though.
 

davepoobond

you can't put a price on sparks

when i saw this in the theater, i knew the movie was a joke.

this was not the movie Nolan wanted to make or care about. it was a big troll. the editing was horrible the whole time and the death of Baine was anti-climactic.
 
It does almost feel alarmingly critical of the lower class and the intentions behind occupy wall Street (it's fine to criticize the movement tho, that shit became so misguided as it went on lol)

Eh despite the messy script and being a disappointing sequel it's still like a top 5 comic movie since TDK. There's some amazing scenes in here, some really cool ideas (Howard Hughes bruce wayne, using Tale of two cities as a big influence etc.) and I really can't knock how good that final scene was.

Feels like a dying breed too. Now everything is tied to another 5 movies and you can't get something so contained and ambitious in this genre with execs and the lame fans breathing down your neck.
 
It does almost feel alarmingly critical of the lower class and the intentions behind occupy wall Street (it's fine to criticize the movement tho, that shit became so misguided as it went on lol)

Eh despite the messy script and being a disappointing sequel it's still like a top 5 comic movie since TDK. There's some amazing scenes in here, some really cool ideas (Howard Hughes bruce wayne, using Tale of two cities as a big influence etc.) and I really can't knock how good that final scene was.

Feels like a dying breed too. Now everything is tied to another 5 movies and you can't get something so contained and ambitious in this genre with execs and the lame fans breathing down your neck.

What's your top 5 CBM since TDK?
 

GeeTeeCee

Member
I know the fight scenes in the Nolan trilogy are mostly pretty shit, but the Batman v Bane sewer fight is still my favourite comic book film fight scene from recent memory.
 

dankir

Member

I love Dark Knight Rises but I hated two scenes.

the Flaming Bat Symbol on the bridge, which must of took a long ass time to prepare for
and Talia's death scene.

Otherwise it's a solid 8 / 10 for me

Dark Knight is a 10
Begins is a 9.

fight me gaf!
 
One of the very few sort of "outsider" movie analysis I was able to stomach reading all the way through, and found myself nodding the entire time.

Good show, OP.
 
You're absolutely right, OP. Your post is a very similar, albeit more eloquently stated version of what a group of us talked about after walking out of the theater.
 

opoth

Banned
The politics in this movie is why I'll never watch another Christopher Nolan film.

The insertion of his personal politics turns this film into the biggest disappointment of a closer to an otherwise good trilogy since Return of the Jedi.
 
Excellent analysis.

I didn't like TDKR cause it was a poorly plotted mess of a film with massive plot holes, poor action scenes, and the most pathetic try-hard villain I've seen since Suicide Squad's Joker.

The paranoid right-wing BS the OP pointed out is a cherry on top of a shit sundae.

The worst thing about it is that The Dark Knight, MoS and especially BvS have the same disgusting right-wing message across them. So glad Goyer is gone.
 

Eidan

Member
As for the OP's critique, I think a lot of it rests on the misguided notion that the film was inspired or based on the Occupy movement, despite the fact that the OP seems to acknowledge that this isn't the case, but soldiers through with that inaccurate interpretation any way.

I also don't buy the notion that Ra's Al Ghul's notions somehow made more sense or fit better thematically than Bane or Talia's. Ra's waxed on about a vague problem with "corruption" that could be seen at all levels throughout Gotham, which why, like Rome before it, Gotham had to be destroyed. It wasn't the Narrows specifically that he had an issue with, it was all of Gotham, from the top down. Bane's rhetoric about the elite fit well within that wheelhouse, but the only difference between Bane/Talia and Ra's was that TDKR highlighted the obvious shallowness and hypocrisy behind the League of Shadows' ideology to a stronger degree. Ra's, by his own admission, pushed to increase crime and suffering in Gotham through economic policy to quicken its decay. He WANTED the poor to suffer, so they would turn to crime. Bane and Talia spoke much about a revolution where the people were free from the corrupt, but obviously just imposed a police state where the poor and the rich suffered equally.

It's almost as if the League of Shadows are a cabal of bad guys who only really care about power. Hmmmm.
 
Aside from shit Talia death, shit Bane death and shit thug fights. I absolutely LOVE the tone of the movie. enhanced with possibly my favorite Zimmer score
Never really picked up on the political stuff.
 
The worst thing about it is that The Dark Knight, MoS and especially BvS have the same disgusting right-wing message across them. So glad Goyer is gone.

I dunno what you're seeing in man of Steel to say this.

But in BvS Bruce Trump is proven to be wrong in the end and is basically a stubborn headed bad guy in most of the film. In TDK they end up destroying that surveillance machine at the end. Tbh he shouldn't have even used it in the first place but it basically comes down to "total surveillance is a useful solution but not a morally right one"
 
My biggest problem with Rises is the focus more than anything. Begins focused on Batman and was interesting. TDK focused on Joker and was interesting. Rises focused on Bruce Wayne which was really boring when he's isolated away from his supporting cast, and the middle half focusing on Bane when he's just a henchman by the end of the film really just combines into a piss poor Batman film, a bore of a comic book movie, and a mess of a dramatic film.

I really really hate Rises. I'll watch Batman & Robin again before I rewatch it, simply because that film is at least fun.
 
I know the fight scenes in the Nolan trilogy are mostly pretty shit, but the Batman v Bane sewer fight is still my favourite comic book film fight scene from recent memory.
I love the movie, but TDKR was playing on a muted TV at a bar some months back and, man, the sound design basically makes those scenes. Without sound they look like cosplay, none of the punches look like they connect. Even the sewer fight. The fight scenes may have been the sole improvement in Snyder's representation of Batman in BvS. That warehouse fight was on another level.
 

Dead

well not really...yet
I dunno what you're seeing in man of Steel to say this.

But in BvS Bruce Trump is proven to be wrong in the end and is basically a stubborn headed bad guy in most of the film.
Yeah if anything it's the total anti-thesis to right wing fear mongering.
 
The politics in this movie is why I'll never watch another Christopher Nolan film.

The insertion of his personal politics turns this film into the biggest disappointment of a closer to an otherwise good trilogy since Return of the Jedi.

You should watch Person of Interest (created by Jonathan Nolan). I mean don't get me wrong I love the series, but as soon as you take a closer look, some of the stuff in there is absolutely fucked up in terms of political world view, and in my opinion mirrors the Batman movies.
 
i totally feel you when you say the villains are there for no reason

its true they wanna fulfill razagoos destiny but thats it, they kinda chill there and you dont see the city suffering.. its just empty and thats it

when ras was destroying gotham you saw people hallucinating and shitting bricks, the city was engulfed in gas and everyone was in their own personal nightmare

meanwhile bane and scarecrow are jury duty role playing SMH IMO TBH

batman and ras were fighting inside a moving train thats gonna eventually collide

in TDKR batman kicks big guy through a door and thats it
 
I dunno what you're seeing in man of Steel to say this.

But in BvS Bruce Trump is proven to be wrong in the end and is basically a stubborn headed bad guy in most of the film. In TDK they end up destroying that surveillance machine at the end. Tbh he shouldn't have even used it in the first place but it basically comes down to "total surveillance is a useful solution but not a morally right one"

You're right about MoS, I just lump with the rest of the shitshow nowadays. My bad!

That's the problem in TDK, Batman has his cake and eats it too. He can say "its wrong to use this!" all he wants, he still uses it regardless, and wouldn't have won without it.

And no, BatTrump isn't wrong, not if that Flash vision/coke dream was real.
 
You should watch Person of Interest (created by Jonathan Nolan). I mean don't get me wrong I love the series, but as soon as you take a closer look, some of the stuff in there is absolutely fucked up in terms of political world view, and in my opinion mirror's the Batman movies.

Yeah that show kind of made me think johnathan nolan might be pretty conservative. I'm actually surprised that they destroy the machine in TDK. I wonder if he was persuaded to by goyer or somebody else.
 

Sephzilla

Member
Nice post, OP. The stuff you listed off, along with some general plot issues, are ultimately why I kind of feel like The Dark Knight Rises is a bit of a lazy movie and I get the impression that Nolan and company just didn't have the enthusiasm to make a third movie. There's just so much at the core of the movie that feels like it was halfassed and slightly unfinished, or not very well thought out. I still like TDKR but it feels like the third movie curse still hit this trilogy.
 
The Dark Knight Rises annoyed me because it was a plot-hole ridden mess.

That said, Ledger aside I didn't like TDK much either. There's a political discussion to be had around that movie's plot, where Batman basically built his own GCHQ machine to spy on everyone without their knowledge to track Joker down. EDIT Looks like i'm late to the party.
 
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