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[Spectral Glider]

The point has been made but it bears repeating since it seems that some of you have missed it.

Lucas used Ewoks instead of Wookiees on Endor because Ewoks looked too harmless to combat the Empire, and thus the Emperor saw them as no threat. If the planet had been Kashyyyk, the Emperor would most definitely have seen them as a threat and wouldn't have left them alone as he did the Ewoks.

The Emperor's overconfidence made him underestimate the Ewoks, and their attack surprised and distracted the Imperial troops long enough for the Rebel forces to escape and help fight the Imperials off.

I think the Emperor's problem was the placing of faith in a group of bumbling stromstroopers who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. You know, the guys that were all cloned after an elite bounty hunter. But then again, Boba, his clone son, did die as the result of a slapstick accident, so maybe all of Lucas's fuckups do work out in the end.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

I think the Emperor's problem was the placing of faith in a group of bumbling stromstroopers who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. You know, the guys that were all cloned after an elite bounty hunter. But then again, Boba, his clone son, did die as the result of a slapstick accident, so maybe all of Lucas's fuckups do work out in the end.

I figured by the time of the Orginal Trilogy they had been copying the Stormtroopers for so long that they had degraded in form. You know, how a copy of a copy isn't quite as sharp as the orginal...

 

[ManaByte]

I think the Emperor's problem was the placing of faith in a group of bumbling stromstroopers who couldn't hit the broadside of a barn. You know, the guys that were all cloned after an elite bounty hunter. But then again, Boba, his clone son, did die as the result of a slapstick accident, so maybe all of Lucas's fuckups do work out in the end.

Lucas has said that during the time of the Empire not all Stormtroopers were clones from Jango. Basically his idea is that if some rich person on Coruscant doesn't want to send their kid to the Imperial Academy to be an Imperial Officer and choking fodder for Vader, they could be a clone source for Stormtroopers. That's why some bump their heads on doors (the Jango clones) and others can't hit the broadside of a barn.

 

[Spectral Glider]

Lord, "stromstroopers", did I really type that? That's almost like a lucas fuckup right there. :lol

 

[Kettch]

As someone with an ewok username, I have to disagree.

I did enjoy the first two films more, but RotJ wasn't much of a dropoff.

 

[Saturnman]

ROTJ might have the Ewoks, but it also has a lot of the emperor so it balances out, IMHO.

 

[Spectral Glider]

Yeah, compared to the first two, original, star wars flicks, ROTJ does falter. But overall, it's not that terrible. I've seen plenty of worse movies. I really do like the beginning of the film, and the Luke and Vader stuff was cool.......but it's the middle that suffers.

 

[Boogie]

As someone with an ewok username, I have to disagree.

I did enjoy the first two films more, but RotJ wasn't much of a dropoff.

Heh, Commander Kettch rocks :lol

 

[Kabuki Waq]

ROTJ is still better than Ep 1 Ep2 and most likely Ep3 as well.

 

[tralfazz]

I figured by the time of the Orginal Trilogy they had been copying the Stormtroopers for so long that they had degraded in form. You know, how a copy of a copy isn't quite as sharp as the orginal...

As I recall Han was set to be in the Imperial Navy before freeing Chewie, so they aren't all cloned anymore. I also remeber in the Zahn books that the Emperor was mind controlling most of the army and he kind of slipped up at the end concentrating on the Luke v Vader duel.

 

[radioheadrule83]

The Emperor is at his best in Return of the Jedi. Thus it's my favourite movie out of the three.

I hate Return of the Jedi

I hate you.

 

[SteveMeister]

As I recall Han was set to be in the Imperial Navy before freeing Chewie, so they aren't all cloned anymore. I also remeber in the Zahn books that the Emperor was mind controlling most of the army and he kind of slipped up at the end concentrating on the Luke v Vader duel.

And Luke was going to sign up for the Academy as well. And his friend Biggs DID sign up, but jumped ship to join the Rebellion.

 

[ManaByte]

As I recall Han was set to be in the Imperial Navy before freeing Chewie, so they aren't all cloned anymore. I also remeber in the Zahn books that the Emperor was mind controlling most of the army and he kind of slipped up at the end concentrating on the Luke v Vader duel.

The Expanded Universe is not canon.

Lucas' official origin for Han is that he was an orphan raised by Wookiees on Kashyyyk. He befriends Chewie and they leave the planet together. He explained that in the Annotated Screenplays that were released in 1997. A young Han was actually going to be in Episode III and they got as far as approving a costume design for him before the scene he was going to be in was cut. Apparently the design for young Han appears in the Art of Episode III book that comes out on April 2nd.

"The idea was that Han Solo was an orphan. He was raised by Wookiees, befriended Chewbacca, and they went off."

 

[Boogie]

The Expanded Universe is not canon.

It should be.

 

[evil ways]

OK, let's see... in Empire Strikes Back he is supposed to be this bad-ass bounty-hunter and does nothing but stare people down for most of the movie, make idle threats, shoot and miss Luke and load Han in his ship...

Now we get to Return of the Jedi, he stares a lot in Jabba's lair, he nods at Leia's bounty hunter after raising his gun... and now here is his chance to kick some Jedi ass and maybe go hand-to-hand with Han or Chewie... and nothing...

For this bad-ass guy... he should have been able to do more than have his gun chopped in half by Luke and hit with a stick from blind-Han... just very lame...

He should have had a nice little battle with Chewie and have blind grab him and snap his neck... of course Lucas would have editted the neck to break before Han grabbed him.

You can thank the fanboys for all the so called bad-assedness Fett has. They made a big deal out of the loser and in order to capitalize on it folks behind merchandise and books released supposed background stories and merchandise to feed the Fett frenzy.

To me he's a loser just like his father. Both went up against a Jedi, both lost, both died, end of story.

 

[soundwave05]

RoTJ is still 10x better than any of the prequels. For the following reasons...

1.) Harrison Ford, Mark Hamil, and Carrie Fisher still has 100000x better chemistry and better dialouge (thank you Lawrence Kasdan) than either Ep. 1 or 2. The "How are we doing?"/"Same as always"/"That bad, huh?" exchange is more natural and charming than anything in both of the prequels combined.

2.) Princess Leia in a metal bikini.

3.) The SPACE BATTLE is the best space battle in movie history.

4.) The Speeder Bike chase is one of the coolest and most inventive sequences ever.

5.) The Ewoks are still better than the Gungans.

6.) The EMPEROR totally rocks and the finale sequence between Luke/Vader/Emperor succeeds totally. That makes the movie work.

I would rate RotJ faaaaaaar above either of the prequels and above every Star Trek film with the exception of Star Trek II and Star Trek VI (probably about even with Star Trek: First Contact). I would also rank it above either of the Matrix sequels easily.

 

[Do The Mario]

ROTJ isn’t that bad probably not as quite good as the first two but on par.

Things I liked

1. Swashbuckling start with Luke kicking ass, first time you get to see a Jedi fight such a battle.

2. The Battle of Endor (the one taking place in space), seeing the rebel fleet in action was great it would have been nice to have seen more!

3. The Empire he is so bad ass for an old man.

 

[mattx5]

Enough said....

 

[DrForester]

I feel like im watching the Empire Vs jedi scene from clerks.

Dante: "All Jedi had was a bunch of Muppets"

 

[Vormund]

The latter half of Jedi makes up for the early part, which I felt was a bit slow.

Empire is still the best though.

 

[radioheadrule83]

I'm with Randall: "Blasphemy!"

 

[missAran]

Empire's the best Star Wars movie, Jedi is the worst of the original three. But Phantom Menace and Clones are much worse than Jedi.

 

[soundwave05]

For me, the overall "sci-fi" genre list, if you include the OT/PT/Star Trek/Matrix would be ...

1.) The Empire Strikes Back
2.) The Matrix
3.) A New Hope
4.) Star Trek VI
5.) Star Trek II
6.) Return of the Jedi

7.) Star Trek: First Contact
8.) Star Trek IV
9.) Star Trek
10.) Matrix Revolutions
11.) Matrix Reloaded
12.) Star Trek: Nemesis
13.) Star Trek: Generations
14.) Star Wars Episode I
15.) Star Trek V
16.) Star Trek: Innsurrection
17.) Star Wars Episode II


No way in hell is RoTJ the worst big-budget sci-fi movie though. It's actually one of the best.

 

[Groder Mullet]

My only beef with RotJ is that Lucas took out the Yub-Nub song. Talk about disapointment when I heard the new, shitty song for the first time.

Yub-Nub FOREVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Duck of Death]

Return of the Jedi is great fun.

 

[DaMan121]

Um, comparing Jedi to A New Hope and ESB is one thing, but comparing it to Ep I & II is outright dumb... Heck, Caravan of Courage >>>>> Ep I & II combined.

And besides, the Ewokes atleast have a mean streak in them, if it wasnt for Luke and CP30 they would have EATEN them..

 

[Prince of Space]

You can thank the fanboys for all the so called bad-assedness Fett has. They made a big deal out of the loser and in order to capitalize on it folks behind merchandise and books released supposed background stories and merchandise to feed the Fett frenzy.

To me he's a loser just like his father. Both went up against a Jedi, both lost, both died, end of story.

Seriously, I've never understood where all this praise for Fett came from. He displays a bit of cunning in tracking the Falcon to Bespin, and that's it. Big whoop.

 

[shantyman]

To me he's a loser just like his father. Both went up against a Jedi, both lost, both died, end of story.

^^^^
Best quote in this thread.

I'm out of smart ass mode, and I'm glad some people are defending Jedi. I just don't see how someone can hate that movie but love the other 4 movies that have been released. Honestly they are all of similar quality (some with more cheese than others obviously).

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

If I were ranking the Star Wars series thus far, it would look like this:

1. Empre Strikes Back
2. A New Hope
3. Return of the Jedi
4. Attack of the Clones
5. Phantom Menace

I know a lot of people don't lilke the new series, but I still enjoy it. Is it the same Star Wars we knew when the Originals were released, well, yes and no. Lucas has fucked with some things, and people like to complain about the dailog in the newer films, but really, the dialog wasn't that great in the first films either. The OT had Han, Luke, and Leia, who were just so good together as characters and actors. And at the time, it was pretty orginal, with little Sci fi actually making it to the big screen, but times have changed and we get a lot of sci-fi these days, some good, a lot bad.

The new trilogy has a lot going for it as well. I've found it fun to watch the Emperor rise to power and manipulate everything. It's also been great to see the Jedi really show their stuff and learn more about the Sith. The sabre duels have been excellent, and the final battle in Attack of the Clones was pretty cool too. But when you sit back and see the moves that Palpatine has made, it's actually pretty cool how he has manipulated others to put him in a place to take power. The bad for the new triliogy included terrible acting by Jake Lloyd and Hayden Christensen, and at times, Natlie Portman. The whole Midicholorians thing kinda took a little mystique away from the Force, and of course, Jar-Jar.

Overall, I still enjoy the new flicks, even though it's en vogue now to bash on them. I'm really looking forward to Revenge of the Sith, and I think it will vindicate these newer films to a certain degree. It's just a shame that what we've all wanted to see, the Fall of Anakin, has to be shown in the final movie. I'd like to have had Attack of the Clones be the first film of the series, Revenge of the Sith as the second, with Anakin becoming Vader, and a Third film, call it The Rise of the Empire, showing Vader and the Emperor hunting down and destroying the Jedi.

 

[Willco]

There hasn't been a decent Star Wars film since Empire. Return of the Jedi has its moments, but they're spread out. I can't even bring myself to watch it anymore. And the character of Vader has essentially been ruined for me by the prequels. My guess if it wasn't for those two piece of shit films masquerading under the Star Wars brand, I'd probably be more lenient on Return of the Jedi. The whole series as a whole has just gone downhill. You can thank your pal Lucas for that, though.

 

[Scrow]

Seriously, I've never understood where all this praise for Fett came from. He displays a bit of cunning in tracking the Falcon to Bespin, and that's it. Big whoop.

it's the helmet and jetpack with what looks like a dangerous missile on it (i'd love to get a hammer and just bop the tip of that thing for kicks).

 

[Blackace]

No RoTJ thread would be complete with out this....

It's a mother fucking TRAP!


One of the greatest lines in movie history thank you very much

 

[MrPing1000]

how did i not notice the post above?

 

[Tedesco!]

Lucas was lazy with Jedi, bottom line. Jedi is sloppy: The sets are awful, the sound is spotchy, and it's just too contrived. I enjoy the opening with Jabba, but after that it's a fast forward until Luke is presented to the Emporer.

 

[Shig]

When did AotC become widely regarded as the worst SW film? There is no damn way it ranks below TPM.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

The one thing I always notice when I watch Jedi now is how bored Harrison Ford seems through the whole thing. At the time Jedi was made, he was just becoming a huge star, following Raiders of the Lost Ark, and you can just tell he really didn't want to be there for Jedi, but the contract said so. He was much better in A New Hope, and awesome in Empire.

 

[Tedesco!]

Ford did look bored, probably because instead of being the hardened smuggler he had to play the loveable goof. The scene on Endor when he steps on the twig is still a silly scene. Ford plays Han with a stupid Gomer Pyle look right before he gets bitch slapped by the Biker Scout.

 

[Manics]

For me, the overall "sci-fi" genre list, if you include the OT/PT/Star Trek/Matrix would be ...

1.) The Empire Strikes Back
2.) The Matrix
3.) A New Hope
4.) Star Trek VI
5.) Star Trek II
6.) Return of the Jedi

7.) Star Trek: First Contact
8.) Star Trek IV
9.) Star Trek
10.) Matrix Revolutions
11.) Matrix Reloaded
12.) Star Trek: Nemesis
13.) Star Trek: Generations
14.) Star Wars Episode I
15.) Star Trek V
16.) Star Trek: Innsurrection
17.) Star Wars Episode II

I sure as hell hope this isn't your definitive sci-fi list. You've missed ALOT of great sci-fi movies in there.

 

[Tedesco!]

He forgot Logan's Run, that's for sure! Plus, he must have written his list stoned if he thought the best Sci-Fi movies lie within three franchises.....

 

[Manics]

He forgot Logan's Run, that's for sure! Plus, he must have written his list stoned if he thought the best Sci-Fi movies lie within three franchises.....

I was thinking of obvious omissions like BLADE RUNNER, ALIEN and ALIENS, and TERMINATOR to name but a few.

 

[Tedesco!]

Why does everyone hate the prequels so much? Besides Jar-Jar, what is wrong? And if the problem is the acting, is the acting bad enough to overlook the numerous problems that made up Jedi?

 

[Tedesco!]

I was thinking of obvious omissions like BLADE RUNNER, ALIEN and ALIENS, and TERMINATOR to name but a few.

How the hell did I forget Alien and Aliens?

You know, Jedi isn 't that bad, as long as you don't take it seriously. I wouldn't group jedi with the other SW films, but I would group it with films like Lifeforce and Howard the Duck.

 

[Manics]

Why does everyone hate the prequels so much? Besides Jar-Jar, what is wrong? And if the problem is the acting, is the acting bad enough to overlook the numerous problems that made up Jedi?

What is RIGHT with the prequals? The overly long race in the first film with Anakin was just boring and cumbersome. The much-hyped light saber dual that featured Yoda was laughable to see this CG mini-mite jumping around flashing around his weapon. And the choice of Hayden Christensen to play Anakin is a painful, painful error when you see how this guy "acts"...it's about as bad a choice as Soffia Coppola in Godfather 3. I mean, apart from the fact the entire second movie revolves around this guy, you think they would have gotten someone ALOT better to do the acting.

Oh and you mentioned Jar-Jar and the rest of his clown-race. C'mon dude, they're far worse then the loveable Ewoks who went on to star in their own TV series. I'd like to see a Jar-Jar TV series.

 

[Tedesco!]

So your beef is just with the acting? You do know we're talking about Star Wars, right? This isn't a series noted for it's incredible acting. Alec Guiness was good, and Harrison Ford surely owned the role of Han, but who else was there? Are you telling me that Hayden's brooding is any more good or bad when compared to Mark Hamill's whiney Luke?

Again, my beef with Jedi extends past the skills of the actors. The dialogue is trite, the sets are so piss poor.... just look at the scene between Luke and Leia on Endor. What's behind them, a cardboard hut and a couple of torches? The whole movie just feels like everyone is phoning it in. I can't abide by it. Ep. 1 and Ep. 2, while they do have their own faults, are still better movies in my eyes when being compared to Jedi. I'll take Jake Lloyd, Jar-Jar, and Hayden Christensen over a bored Harrison Ford, Ewoks, and crappy ending anytime.

 

[Deg]

For Sci Fi movies Star Wars movies are good.

 

[Manics]

Again, my beef with Jedi extends past the skills of the actors. The dialogue is trite, the sets are so piss poor.... just look at the scene between Luke and Leia on Endor. What's behind them, a cardboard hut and a couple of torches? The whole movie just feels like everyone is phoning it in. I can't abide by it. Ep. 1 and Ep. 2, while they do have their own faults, are still better movies in my eyes when being compared to Jedi. I'll take Jake Lloyd, Jar-Jar, and Hayden Christensen over a bored Harrison Ford, Ewoks, and crappy ending anytime.

No no, I was giving you the major faults of the first 2 prequal movies. The acting is worse than the original series, if you debate that well we can't find common ground and are at am impasse.

The other flaws with the prequal movies are the incredible cartoonish atmoshpere. I mean all the CG is just WAY too much. Entire battle sequences of nothing but looking at a computer display and I'm thinking, "gee, that's nice, I could be watching a video game". The scenes with the jedi council are really useless, I expected alot more drama and tension there. You're telling me Samuel L. Jackson was needed there?

In addition, the storylines are weak. There's no character development of Obi-wan at all. He basically exists only for the fact that he HAS to be there cause he's in the original series. I had no connection with any of the characters like we did in the original series and the down to earth family like people we saw with Luke's aunt&uncle, the relationship that developed between Luke, Leia and Han and the treachery and redemption of Lando. After seeing the first 2 prequal films there's absolutely NOTHING that really intrigues me to see the 3rd film. The only reason I'll see it is to be complete and see what Lucas can come up with.

But I guess, apart from piss-poor acting, crappy storylines and no character development, the first 2 prequals might be better than Jedi. This is just my opinion.

 

[border]

just look at the scene between Luke and Leia on Endor. What's behind them, a cardboard hut and a couple of torches?

Just look at any scene in the prequels. What's that behind them, a bunch of really phony looking-CG because they were too lazy to build sets or scout decent locations? :lol

If you want to talk about laziness, the prequels are king. If ROTJ were made today it would not take place in the redwood forests of California, but in front of a blue screen -- later to be filled in with lame CG of a redwood forest.

I'll take the greatest space battle of the series over "Whoops Yipee I pressed a button and everything blew up! The irrelevant trade dispute that nobody gave a shit about is over!"

And yes, I think most people do prefer Luke to Anakin. Luke was nearly always a part of a scene, rarely to focus of it. Half of AOTC is is tedious, horribly written one-on-one dialogue between him and Amidala. Luke only had lame scenes like those once or twice a movie, and the worst of the whining stopped after he left Tatooine anyway.

Worse still, AOTC doesn't have any kind of cool Han Solo or Guinness-Kenobi type characters to prop it up. McGregor-Kenobi is always too stiff and ceremonial, and overall there's really no one that you can give a shit about. So when the villains (who pale in comparison to Vader and Emperor) threaten, the best you can hope for is an entertaining action sequence rather than something that's really emotionally involving. Does anybody really feel excited or tense during the final ground assault in AOTC? Anywhere near as excited and tense as during the battle above Endor's moon? I doubt it.

 

[Tedesco!]

Does anybody really feel excited or tense during the final ground assault in AOTC? Anywhere near as excited and tense as during the battle above Endor's moon? I doubt it.

No, but then again the battle above Endor's moon wasn't that big od a deal either. It's a rehash fromt he first movie with the exception being that the Death Star can fire multiple times. Woo.

 

[Kung Fu Jedi]

As I said earlier, the acting in episodes 1 & 2 is awful, and Samuel L. Jackson is one of the worst offenders, but the first three films didn't have great acting either. Hayden Christensen's performance is bad, but Mark Hamill's wasn't much better. He was very whiney in ANH and Empire, and in Jedi he came across as smug all the time.

The other problems I have with the prequels is the way that Lucas has kinda jerked with the Star Wars Universie. The whole Midicholoreans thing, as I said earlier, takes away from The Force to some extent. The Dialog is definetly not as sharp and witty between the characters, and of course, Jar-Jar, but he's simply too easy of a target. I also can't help but think that this is an awfully small galaxy with some of the same characters turning up all the time. For instance, the droids, or Boba Fett, and in the next movie, Chewbacca.

On the other hand, the prequels give us a glimpse of what the Old Repubulic is like. We get to see the Jedi really kick ass. We understand The Clone Wars a lot more now, and how the Emperor rose to power, through manupulation and back door deals. He really is a puppet master. The sabre duels have been great, to me, and some of the battles have been a blast to watch, such as the ending in Clones. Are they great films, no, but they are still fun, and they build on the stories set in the first one. Consider this, we all knew where the prequels were heading before the first one came out. We have to see Anakin fall and become Vader. With your entire audience already knowing how the third film is going to end, it can't have been easy for Lucas to still create a story that is going to keep us watching and interested. The new films are not as bad as some think. They're not as good as the orginals, but they do have their place in the Star Wars legacy, and honestly, I think Episode III could be great film. One that can bring a measure or redemption to the prequels as a whole.

 

[Manics]

Does anybody really feel excited or tense during the final ground assault in AOTC? Anywhere near as excited and tense as during the battle above Endor's moon? I doubt it.

I think another problem with the prequal films that I didn't mention yet is the fact that the audience ALREADY KNOWS the supposed drama that will take place. It was incumbent on Lucas to come up with some sort of interesting back-story to fill in the gaps that would keep the audience interested because we all know Vader is Anakin already. Instead he felt that the CG effects and action could make up for anything resembling a story. The fact that the original series was made before all the CG enhancements actually HELPED the movies because the story was the main thing that kept the movies going forward -- not the damn effects. At times I feel Lucas only put them together as a ways to make more money, and didn't really feel that these movies would add to or enhance the original movies.