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I hate Return of the Jedi

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ManaByte

Member
Manics said:
I think another problem with the prequal films that I didn't mention yet is the fact that the audience ALREADY KNOWS the supposed drama that will take place. It was incumbent on Lucas to come up with some sort of interesting back-story to fill in the gaps that would keep the audience interested because we all know Vader is Anakin already. Instead he felt that the CG effects and action could make up for anything resembling a story. The fact that the original series was made before all the CG enhancements actually HELPED the movies because the story was the main thing that kept the movies going forward -- not the damn effects. At times I feel Lucas only put them together as a ways to make more money, and didn't really feel that these movies would add to or enhance the original movies.

Well, the problem is that the story in the prequels is so complex most people (including the people whining in this thread) don't get it.

border said:
"Whoops Yipee I pressed a button and everything blew up! The irrelevant trade dispute that nobody gave a shit about is over!"

Well, it is important as it was all part of Palpatine's scheme to gain control and implement the first Galactic Empire. He (as Sidious) was controlling the Trade Federation to invade his home planet in order to get himself put in power (by the bureaucrats who were under the payroll of the Trade Federation that he was telling what to do). So when the vote came for them to decide who to control the Republic, Sidious told the Trade Federation to support Palpatine and they had the bureaucrats place him in power.

The Clone Wars was the second part of that. Sidious used a puppet Jedi to order a clone army so when Palpatine gained full control of everything he'd have an army to do his bidding. Sidious used his apprentice Tyrannus to spark a rebellion against the Republic to create a war that he could use to destroy the Republic and declare himself Emperor.
 

Manics

Banned
ManaByte said:
Well, the problem is that the story in the prequels is so complex most people (including the people whining in this thread) don't get it.


LOL. Keep telling yourself that. :lol
 

border

Member
Tedesco! said:
Well then you can stop there :lol Excitement and tension is created not by the originality of the scenario but by the fact that were are involved with the characters and invested in what happens (though the fact that it has a better score and isn't a CG wankfest also helps). Before you wail with the "rehash" criticsm, it's probably worth noting that AOTC's final sequence is a total rehash of TPM's conclusion -- except with a shorter, lamer lightsaber fight, no "space battle" component, and clone troopers replacing Gungans (there's no awesome tune like Duel of the Fates either). ROTJ's last sequence meets or beats what was in EP4, whereas AOTC's can't even jump over the low bar set by its predecessor.
I think another problem with the prequal films that I didn't mention yet is the fact that the audience ALREADY KNOWS the supposed drama that will take place.
Well, there's only like 3 main characters that we know MUST survive to the next films. Everything else is up in the air. Just because the ending is ultimately predetermined doesn't mean the route there has to be unexciting.

If you want to create tension and get people involved, create new characters that people care about....and put them in peril. Hell, put them in peril at the hands of Anakin and that will only move us more since we know they can't win (only survive or not survive). Unfortunately, all the new cast of the prequels stinks. The only decent ones got killed off in the first movie. At this point I don't think I would care much if I saw Jar Jar or Amidala threatened.
 
ManaByte said:
Well, the problem is that the story in the prequels is so complex most people (including the people whining in this thread) don't get it.
Bullshit. The problem isn't the story, it's the incredibly poor way in which it's presented. If Lucas would've hired someone worth a damn to go over the scripts, we wouldn't have this problem.
 

LakeEarth

Member
Prince of Space said:
Bullshit. The problem isn't the story, it's the incredibly poor way in which it's presented. If Lucas would've hired someone worth a damn to go over the scripts, we wouldn't have this problem.
Exactly. It's not that we're too dumb to get it, it's that the plot isn't clear enough for us to get all the information.

Maybe this analogy is off, but it's like people who think that the future robots at the end of AI were aliens. Sure, you might think they're stupid for thinking that...but really, Speilberg shouldn't have made them look so much like aliens.
 

mattx5

Member
Prince of Space said:
Bullshit. The problem isn't the story, it's the incredibly poor way in which it's presented. If Lucas would've hired someone worth a damn to go over the scripts, we wouldn't have this problem.

My thoughts exactly. The story is actually excellent, Palpatine's deception is brilliant, but I'll be damned if you see it conveyed properly on screen.

And what about the relationship that Anakin and Palpatine are supposed to have? I know we'll see it in ROTS, but how many scenes did they have together in AOTC?

If they could've fixed the crappy love subplot in AOTC, improved the acting and taken out that shitty factory sequence, the film would've been much better.
 
ManaByte said:
Well, the problem is that the story in the prequels is so complex most people (including the people whining in this thread) don't get it.

What the fuck are you talking about!? They're movies for kids. Jesus. :lol
 

SickBoy

Member
Don't be haters, guys. Read the rest of his post, where he unveils the stuff you were too stupid to get! When I read it, it was like a whole new world opened up to me!

:D
 

ckohler

Member
Without Return of the Jedi... we'd have no Admiral.

Ackbar.jpg
 

luxsol

Member
LakeEarth said:
it's like people who think that the future robots at the end of AI were aliens. Sure, you might think they're stupid for thinking that...but really, Speilberg shouldn't have made them look so much like aliens.
Huh? They're not aliens? How was i supposed to tell they were robots?
... course, I've only seen this movie once.
 
I do think the plots of the prequels are more complex then the orginal series because of the political backstory. The up front action is still there, but Palpatine moving the pieces in the background is lost on a lot of people.

I remember when Phantom Menace came out and I was talking about it with some people who were casual Star Wars fans, they couldn't even tell you what the "Phantom Menace" was. They missed the whole point of Palpatine taking power and that the trade dispute was mearly a ruse to get himself into position. That whole sub-plot was lost on A LOT of people.

Of course, that still doesn't excuse some terrible acting and dialog. The love scenes between Anakin and Amidala were painful in AOTC, yet the dialog between Han and Leia in Empire was witty and charming. Not great, but at the least, charming.

One area I find lacking in the prequels is lack of a very cool enemy. In TPM we had Darth Maul, who was actually very cool, but had what, maybe 10 mins of screen time and was killed off far too easily and quickly. Darth Tyranus was not nearly as cool in AOTC (He's much better as Saruman! ;) ) and Darth Sidious is still in the background too much. In the orginal series we had Darth Vader, the best screen villian ever, and The Emperor to contend with. Both, very cool villians. Lets hope that this changes in ROTS. We should see a lot more of the Emperor this time out, and General Grevious has the potential to be very cool. Of course, by the end, we'll have Vader.
 

jett

D-Member
luxsol said:
Huh? They're not aliens? How was i supposed to tell they were robots?
... course, I've only seen this movie once.

Because it's obvious? Because them being aliens wouldn't make sense? Because they speak in fucking english? Because they are clearly mechanical(videos play on their freaking foreheads)? Because they are able to send a power surge through to David to re-animate him by just touching him? Because they know a lot of shit about humans? Because of many freaking reasons?
 

Kenobi

Member
I'm not gonna say I'm better than George Lucas, or that I have the greatest writing talent there ever was, but for me I think the Prequals would have kicked ass if it actually did "mirror like poetry" instead of it being hidden in the background. Having Anakin be in his early 20's, a whiney kid who wants a better life (like Luke) in Episode I, then in two have Anakin go through some trials and tribulations (like Luke in Empire) and somewhere towards the end of the film already start his journey to the dark side....so then when Episode III hits, you see him in all his badass glory, and not knowing whether or not he fully dipped into the dark side (like Luke, once again, in Jedi). As far as the romance goes, it should have been a bit more up front in Episode I, and then evolve in II, and then in III we get the rest of the story. Instead, we get Anakin and Padme's romance being the underline story of Episode II and that's just a bit "meh" to me. The prequals could have been much better than what it is, amd it angers me so sometimes.
 

shantyman

WHO DEY!?
2 things in defense of Ep1. and Ep2, respectively:

1. Lucas said he started that movie when anakin was so young so you could see the process by which a "carefree boy" turns into this monster villain.

2. Lucas said in the recent Vanity Fair article thast there was nothing wrong with Hayden's performance in Ep.2- it was the character people did not like. Anakin is petulant, arrogant, and socially inept. The whole terrible sand line come on to Padme makes sense when you think his whole life since meeting Qui Gon has been training and learning the ways of the Jedi. He doesn't know how to be smooth with the ladies!
 

Tedesco!

Member
I really think that some people have a problem with Eps 1 & 2 because they aren't the OT. I think there are people out there that are genuinely pissed that Luke, Han, Lando..etc... aren't in the new movies.
 

mrkgoo

Member
shantyman said:
2 things in defense of Ep1. and Ep2, respectively:

1. Lucas said he started that movie when anakin was so young so you could see the process by which a "carefree boy" turns into this monster villain.

2. Lucas said in the recent Vanity Fair article thast there was nothing wrong with Hayden's performance in Ep.2- it was the character people did not like. nakin is petulant, arrogant, and socially inept. The whole terible sand line come on to Padme makes sense when you think his whole life since meeting Qui Gon has been training and learning the ways of the Jedi. He doesn't know how to be smooth with the ladies!


Heh, that's an interesting perspective - I nver thought of it that way before! Still, it sounds like damage control to me. I'll give that Lucas wants to show carefree-boy-come-monster, but I don't buy the "it's the character you hate!" argument. Yeah, he can't be smooth with the ladies and stuff -but that wouldn't explain how he got Amidala in the end then, would it?

Actually, I liked certain pieces of the dialogue between Anakin and Padme (Episode II). When they're on the public cruiser, and talking about unconditional love? (You know, Are Jedi allowed to love? Unconditional love is mandatory! type stuff). That was subtle and clever, I thought. And some of his emerging political views were telling as well (not great, but telling). The terrible, terrible dialogue was the coarse sand, smooth skin, I wish I could wish away your wishes with a wish which one wishes business.
 

border

Member
The argument that Anakin's pickup lines are supposed to be cornball is pretty weak damage control. Even if that's the case though, it makes it pretty stupid that a world-hopping jetset monarch like Queen Amidala would fall for such horrifyingly lame lines.
 

shantyman

WHO DEY!?
Lucas only made the comment about Anakin being unlikable. It's my notion that he is emotionally stunted. I don't really think that is far fetched.
 

Tedesco!

Member
Is it possible that the detractors of the prequels might sing a different song once the thrid and final film is in place?

It's my notion that he is emotionally stunted as well. He's basically a spoiled brat in Ep 2, I don't think we were ever meant to really like the guy....
 

mrkgoo

Member
shantyman said:
Lucas only made the comment about Anakin being unlikable. It's my notion that he is emotionally stunted. I don't really think that is far fetched.

No it's not far fetched, and is quite likely, but reiterating Border's (and my own) sentiments, why would amidala fall for such a character? That doesn't make sense.
 

luxsol

Member
jett said:
Because it's obvious? Because them being aliens wouldn't make sense? Because they speak in fucking english? Because they are clearly mechanical(videos play on their freaking foreheads)? Because they are able to send a power surge through to David to re-animate him by just touching him? Because they know a lot of shit about humans? Because of many freaking reasons?
A society of robots on an Earth that has been flooded and frozen over makes as much sense as aliens exploring the planet. All those "robots" looked a lot like Spielberg's aliens from Close Encounters of a Third Kind (especially the long legged one at the very end). And because it's Spielberg, the "robot" touching David at the end reminded me of ET where he was able to heal and bring things to life with a simple touch. Doesn't make sense much, but you're supposed to believe it anyway. =P

I attributed them being able to speak English and know a lot about humans to the fact that they were escavating an entire frozen city that was underwater to LEARN and KNOW about that society. They were able to recreate David's home and then his mother from a friggin piece of hair (again, doesn't make sense.. especially on why she would only live one day). So why couldn't they be able to speak English?
I mean, if they were robots they were built by humans who are long dead, so why would they even speak English of a society that is obviously long dead? Do we speak Ancient Greek? Ancient Hebrew? Other ancient languages? Nope, because those societies have died out or became something else, which in turn changes the language. So aliens speaking English makes as much sense as robots speaking a language of a society that is long gone.
So really, a society of robots makes as much sense as aliens by what was shown at the end of the movie.

Course, I've only seen the movie once and i maybe wrong, but everything I've said makes SENSE dammit!
 

Tedesco!

Member
Please, let's keep this thread limited to just one shitty movie. I believe discussion about I Robot, A.I. or other robot films can be found in the thread "Movies Shittier Than Jedi!" :D
 
The plot or backstory is not the problem with the prequles, although I did roll my eyes that Jar-Jar was allowed to vote on behalf of Naboo (how stupid are these people anyway?).

People still relate to character, emotion, acting, pacing, on-screen chemistry. All that is sorely lacking the prequels. Everything is stiff and awkward. Comic relief falls flat, romantic moments elicit laughter from the audience, major plot points or character traits are told to the audience rather than being shown, etc. etc.

That's where the prequels fail, no matter how good the special effects and mythology/back story is ... you can't take short cuts with the storytelling, even if you're George Lucas.

Its just sloppy storytelling, that's all it really boils down to. The fact that the characters are so bland and cardboard-ish has them completely drowned out by the special effects. If you're going to have a very FX driven movie you *must* have very, very strong characters to anchor the audience to the story.

By the end of Attack of the Clones, I couldn't be bothered to care about what was going on, it was a bunch of razzle dazzle effects shots with Yoda suddenly becoming the star of a Ray Haryhausen B-movie. John Williams couldn't apparently even be bothered to record new music for that battle sequence either, lol.
 

border

Member
Tedesco! said:
It's my notion that he is emotionally stunted as well. He's basically a spoiled brat in Ep 2, I don't think we were ever meant to really like the guy....
So the entire series is about the redemption of a character that nobody in the audience likes, or is even supposed to like? Lucas is totally nuts but I gotta think that out the outset, back in the 1970's, he wouldn't have been dumb enough to have that as the plan. It's most likely that he just fucked up, and failed to make Anakin likable or interesting.
 

jett

D-Member
luxsol said:
A society of robots on an Earth that has been flooded and frozen over makes as much sense as aliens exploring the planet.

Actually, no. Jude Law's character hints that "at the end, all that will be left is us". Mechas are what remain because they're lifeless machines, and thus are not affected by the extreme cold weather. Humans, however, do, and cannot survive. I realize you've only seen the movie once, but jeezus, how can you say both scenarios make the same amount of sense? :p

All those "robots" looked a lot like Spielberg's aliens from Close Encounters of a Third Kind (especially the long legged one at the very end).

Actually...they aren't. The aliens in Close Encountes are really small, shorter than the children they abducted in some cases. People just have this pre-concieved image of what aliens look like. In fact, i remember reading that Spielberg was pissed off that so many movie-goers though they were aliens because his team worked hard at designing futuristic robots. :p

And because it's Spielberg, the "robot" touching David at the end reminded me of ET where he was able to heal and bring things to life with a simple touch. Doesn't make sense much, but you're supposed to believe it anyway. =P

Well, you know, David isn't a living being. But I'll give you that.

[qoute]I attributed them being able to speak English and know a lot about humans to the fact that they were escavating an entire frozen city that was underwater to LEARN and KNOW about that society.[/quote]

That's a little far fetched to support the idea that aliens learned to speak perfect english. Doesn't it make more sense that they know how to speak english because it's been programmed into them since forever? :p

They were able to recreate David's home and then his mother from a friggin piece of hair (again, doesn't make sense.. especially on why she would only live one day). So why couldn't they be able to speak English?

Actually, they knew what David's home looked like because they read David's memory banks. And why did they know how to do that? Yeah, you know the answer.

I mean, if they were robots they were built by humans who are long dead, so why would they even speak English of a society that is obviously long dead? Do we speak Ancient Greek? Ancient Hebrew? Other ancient languages? Nope, because those societies have died out or became something else, which in turn changes the language. So aliens speaking English makes as much sense as robots speaking a language of a society that is long gone.
So really, a society of robots makes as much sense as aliens by what was shown at the end of the movie.

Well, there's several explanations for that. First, I guess, is that since they record everything, and by that time they probably invented huge hard drives or whatever :p they have no need to "delete" information. By reading David's memory banks, they can know which language he communicates in and "speak" accordingly. You can see that they don't speak english between them, they "transfer information" by touching each other.

Okay, maybe it isn't that obvious when they first appear, I too initially thought they were aliens and was all WTF IS GOING ON, but as the movie progressed I realized that they're robots...cause that explanation actually make sense and is in context with the rest of the film. Heh, I remember that the friends I watched the movie with thought they were aliens by the end. When I told them I thought they were robots they were all like "no...oh wait, that actually makes sense". :p

No need to make an arguement for the "alien theory", as they refer to them as mechas/robots on the A.I. DVD.
 

border

Member
People assume that they are aliens because they look like aliens and have supernatural powers. You can write and yell as much as you want, but any misinterpretation is really the fault of Spielberg and the Dreamworks design people. There's really nothing definitive to point anyone to one conclusion or the other.
 
soundwave05 said:
John Williams couldn't apparently even be bothered to record new music for that battle sequence either.

If there's one thing that I'm really touchy about when it comes to SW, it's the score. Williams was NOT at fault for the rehash of TPM's score. He actually scored it but they weren't able to edit it in at time to the synching of the battle (i.e. what Ben Burtt had been screwing around with the timeline of action, etc.) so they used the temp track they had been using from TPM. Don't blame Williams. Hell, only slightly blame Lucas since it was really sound editor/editor Ben Burtt that did that.

To add to that, Williams thematically has been on top of the game for the prequels. Though some of the action pieces are lacking to those of the OT (the asteroid chase is still the best cue of the entire saga IMO) his thematic elements are still in place; the subtle use of the Imperial March/Vader theme in Anakin's innocent boyish theme, the melancholic minor strains of the love theme from EP:2, and the use of the children's choir as a jubilant Emperor's theme at the end celebration of EP:1 letting it be known, not necessarily in the events of the film but thematically, that the Emperor has won his first victory.
 

luxsol

Member
jett said:
Actually, no. Jude Law's character hints that "at the end, all that will be left is us". Mechas are what remain because they're lifeless machines, and thus are not affected by the extreme cold weather. Humans, however, do, and cannot survive. I realize you've only seen the movie once, but jeezus, how can you say both scenarios make the same amount of sense? :p
Yeah, it makes more sense taking that into consideration. I wasn't saying that they were aliens, it's just that by what the movie tells us (and doesnt) that it's hard to tell what they are at the end. Just using google shows a lot of confusion about them. Like Border (and lakeearth) says.. it's Dreamwork's and Spielberg's fault.


jett said:
Actually...they aren't. The aliens in Close Encountes are really small, shorter than the children they abducted in some cases. People just have this pre-concieved image of what aliens look like. In fact, i remember reading that Spielberg was pissed off that so many movie-goers though they were aliens because his team worked hard at designing futuristic robots. :p
Yeah, there are those little kid aliens but there's also a bigger alien (I'm guessing it's only in the director's cut) that comes out of ship after the little ones do.

Anyway, I like Lucas' explanation on Anakin's corny lines a lot better than Spielberg's "They're supposed to be futuristic robots, dammit!" They both offer incontext clues, but going into the future and having alien looking robots who speak perfect English and using a little boy robot to give them clues about humanity's past is more farfetched than an emotionally stunted arrogant pretty boy that gets a former queen which makes fanboys hate on him. =P
 

ManaByte

Member
IAmtheFMan said:
and the use of the children's choir as a jubilant Emperor's theme at the end celebration of EP:1 letting it be known, not necessarily in the events of the film but thematically, that the Emperor has won his first victory.

Too bad that also flies over people's heads.
 

Dreamfixx

I don't know shit about shit
I thought Attack of the Clones was great. The action was there throughout the film, unlike its predecessor, and Obi-Wan's story arc was excitement front to back. The arena battle on Geonosis was also frantic fun to watch. Yeah, the love story was weak, but the rest of the film is pure entertainment and I expect Revenge of the Sith to expound the relationships between these characters.
 

Prine

Banned
The 2 prequals were fantastic.

My only complaint would be that the sets were too perfect, everything was super clean and curvy. Missed some of that "dirty future" look of the OT


Edit: The end battle scene from TPM and AOTC was superb. Yoda battle and Obi vs Darth Maul being the highlights
 
Prine said:
The 2 prequals were fantastic.

My only complaint would be that the sets were too perfect, everything was super clean and curvy. Missed some of that "dirty future" look of the OT


Edit: The end battle scene from TPM and AOTC was superb. Yoda battle and Obi vs Darth Maul being the highlights

How can you like the sets? In Attack of the Clones there weren't many sets!
 

ManaByte

Member
Duck of Death said:
How can you like the sets? In Attack of the Clones there weren't many sets!

Yes there were. Most of the CG stuff was digital set extensions. They'd build a small set and then extend it digitally. The only major sequence that was a 100% CG set was the droid factory.
 

shantyman

WHO DEY!?
mrkgoo said:
No it's not far fetched, and is quite likely, but reiterating Border's (and my own) sentiments, why would amidala fall for such a character? That doesn't make sense.

It's all about the force baby.
 

shantyman

WHO DEY!?
border said:
So the entire series is about the redemption of a character that nobody in the audience likes, or is even supposed to like? Lucas is totally nuts but I gotta think that out the outset, back in the 1970's, he wouldn't have been dumb enough to have that as the plan. It's most likely that he just fucked up, and failed to make Anakin likable or interesting.

He is not supposed to be 100% unlikable, but there are unlikable parts ot his personality. Again, think of the story arc of a nice young child who becomes corrupted and turnjs into Darth Vader.
 

shantyman

WHO DEY!?
One last thing. Anyone who thinks Hayden Christensen can't act should watch Shattered Glass. He is excellent in that film.
 

Manics

Banned
shantyman said:
One last thing. Anyone who thinks Hayden Christensen can't act should watch Shattered Glass. He is excellent in that film.


I'll take your word on the fact that he's excellent in Shattered Glass. He is far from excellent in Attack of the Clones though.
 

Tedesco!

Member
refreshZ said:
R2D2 can fly?

I remember in the weeks leading up to AOTC that there was some sort of website that was designed to be a news website for the SW universe. I remember that they had a story that dealt with the R2 units, and how their "leg boosters" only had a life span of 20 or so years, which would explain why R2 never udes them in the OT. I thought it was kinda funny that they put it in there like that. Does anyone remember the website?
 

Tedesco!

Member
shantyman said:
One last thing. Anyone who thinks Hayden Christensen can't act should watch Shattered Glass. He is excellent in that film.

Agreed. I think his only film where his acting is less than good would be AOTC. Still, I thought he acted fine enough. I'm sure it's hard to emote properly when you've been staring at a green screen all day.
 

Prospero

Member
Manics said:
I'll take your word on the fact that he's excellent in Shattered Glass. He is far from excellent in Attack of the Clones though.

There are several actors that are great in other movies but crap in the SW prequels.

Natalie Portman: awesome in The Professional and Heat; crap in SW movies
Ewan McGregor: awesome in Trainspotting; crap in SW movies
Liam Neeson: awesome in every single non-Lucas movie he's in, including Darkman and Krull; mediocre in Phantom Menace (though not crap)
Pernilla August: awesome in Fanny and Alexander; crap in SW movies

Proof that bad direction can ruin even a good actor.
 
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