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I hate the player and team ratings in sports games, we can do better.

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
This has been going on in my head for a while, I think stat based ratings are outdated, do not offer a modern take on sports and are keeping us away from some cool alternatives. Long post ahead, apologies.

To highlight some cool things that have been brought forward: in soccer games we have fatigue carrying over from the previous match and PES has a mental modifier as well as a form modifier. These are realistic and easy to understand, but they're not used properly.

The main problem is that most games didn't tackle this issue from a new perspective, instead they doubled down on stats. Resulting in most players having to google which stats are "the good stats" to improve. Its broken, its not player friendly and worst of all, ITS NOT ACCURATE. Its impossible to quantify whether Xabi Alonso's ability to finish is 70 or 80 (he barely ever shoots!) so imagine some dude riding bench in a middle of the road team ... Hell, Im watching La Liga now and the Betis GK (last team in the table) just did the splits in an attempt to stop a shot. Thats incredible athleticism! In Fifa, the GK for the bad team might as well do this

ab1JPaO.gif

A secondary problem is that aside from the 5 star teams in a soccer game (soccer heavy thread, sorry!), the rest of them teams, which make up 90 percent of the roster, play like a special needs 10th grade team. Professional soccer players in real life can do every single trick in the book, all can do bicycle kicks and run faster than anybody you know, yet most games try to make their stars look so good that that what ends up happening is that everybody else gets handicapped to a ridiculous, unrealistic level.


But anyways enough bitching, lets talk about solutions, or at least things Id like to see happen:

Numerical stats should still be present, just NOT VISIBLE TO THE PLAYER. This is what fighting games do and it works wonders for them, it allows for the following:

-The player to experiment and discover rather than straightaway thinking "this player/team is shit" Right now I never play some of my favorite players because their rating is lower than others, that shouldn't happen

-You will actually play players in the right positions. Ive seen people exploit Fifa by placing players outside their positions because the ratings are above common sense


Team play style > Individual player skill

-For the most part, sports players succeed in a system that caters to their strengths and perform worse when out of such a system. Take Steve Nash in basketball or Messi in soccer. If you put Nash in a slow tempo team or put Messi in Argentina (lol) all of a sudden they don't contribute like they usually do.

-When you look at a team, don't have a star rating, just an indication of playstyle, a plus and a minus.

-To elaborate on that, instead of numbers and stars, simplify it by saying what a player/team is good at and what they're bad at. Limit it to 3 max on each side and have different categories, for instance. This is what I would do for Xavi, the Barca midfielder

-----------------Xavi-----------------
+Tempo +Vision +Leadership
-Aging -Goalscoring

That tells you everything you need to know about him, he possesses talents that are truly difficult to have but hes getting there in age so he cant replicate that quality on a game by game basis and you're probably better off letting somebody else shoot on goal.

Lets take a middle of the road midfielder like Granero, who plays at Real Sociedad

-----------------Granero----------------
+Combinations +Vision
-Injury -Ball Possession

Thats Granero for you, can make a killer pass every now and then, but I don't trust him all that much and hey, his knee blew up, great. He obviously doesn't get the grand accolades that Xavi gets (leadership!) but he can get some good things done.

fifa_bug-97647.gif


Mental state, Chemistry and location matter!

-Lets say you ignore player "x" all game and then get all of a sudden you need him to make a great run or a good pass ... but he cant execute because hes been ignored all match long and he doesn't have his head in the game. In real life Ive seen that happen plenty of times. Players that have been alienated throughout the match tend to have a hard time performing well, the same should happen in a game, with some key players being able to perform no matter how involved they are in the game (Messi being the obvious choice, this year hes spent most of his time on the pitch walking)

-Some players have a hard time getting motivated playing shit teams, and thus underperform, some teams play to the level of the competition so they look amazing against Real Madrid and play like ass against Phlegm CF. Some players are very professional and can perform the same throughout, so a game should reflect this as well.

-The state of the pitch should be key. Passing teams like Barca rely on really well maintained pitches that are slightly wet in order for the passing game to flow well, so sometimes some teams turn their own field into a potato field in order for the opposing team to have a harder time. There should be stadiums in a variety of conditions, and they should affect teams differently.

fifa-giant-players.gif


Theres a lot more examples that could be brought up, but I dont want EA to steal all my ideas :p The main idea is to REPLICATE the way fans talk about soccer players, we dont have those numbers in real life, its fun to discover things you didnt know about a player, or to prove somebody else wrong about another player, this method would go a long way in making that happen.

I honestly think this would be a huge boost for sports games. Right now you go online, or even offline and people always pick the best ranked teams, go online search for a team ranked 4 or below and YOU CANT FIND PEOPLE TO PLAY WITH. Its a broken system that I dont find users ever being happy with (bitching about what ratings a player got is like a national internet sport)

Thank you for reading this long

gimme-kiss-fifa-2012-bug.gif
 
Let me tell you this would be an amazing system for sports games. It seems really well thought.
I would love to play a FIFA with this type of stats, would seem much more realistic and more equal between players.
 

Cudder

Member
interesting thread.

to be honest, I only play NHL games mainly, and I don't see people picking only the top rated teams when I play online. For example, I pick Toronto, because it's my home team, and I still manage to win against most other teams because skill when using a team comes before stats.

Also, I like what NHL 14 does with stats: when a player is having a hot streak in real life, they get a slight temporary stat boost in the game to reflect how they play in real life.
 

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
interesting thread.

to be honest, I only play NHL games mainly, and I don't see people picking only the top rated teams when I play online. For example, I pick Toronto, because it's my home team, and I still manage to win against most other teams because skill when using a team comes before stats.

Also, I like what NHL 14 does with stats: when a player is having a hot streak in real life, they get a slight temporary stat boost in the game to reflect how they play in real life.

American sports games tend to not have this problem because the pool of available teams is much smaller, in soccer though, youre talking about hundreds of teams ...
 

Joelio13

Member
Nice thread and great ideas. This could really work well but, while I don't see it being implemented into regular online play (people love their stats too much and would bitch like crazy) it could definitely work and help expand the manager/career mode.
 

benny_a

extra source of jiggaflops
-the player to experiment and discover rather than straightaway thinking "this player/team is shit" Right now I never play some of my favorite players because their rating is lower than others, that shouldn't happen
-you will actually play players in the right positions. Ive seen people exploit Fifa by placing players outside their positions because the ratings are above common sense

While I might agree that visible stats might be detrimental (for the reasons you listed), but especially the OVERALL stat - I have to disagree here.

I use the team composition I like the most using the players I think are the coolest. I have 3 midfielders that on a position are numerically better and yet I still don't play them because I think I have more fun when I play the team I like the best.

I recently played against a guy called Liverpool4Ever or something and he played Chelsea. I don't want to be that guy. ;-)

I do think it would be fun to see some more innovation in FIFA and describing players with adjectives would be interesting.
 

Riposte

Member
Stats are actually visible in fighting games because of training modes and shared (or discoverable) frame data. Most prefer the data be out in the open.

Also stats can only really be "numerical".
 
Stats are actually visible in fighting games because of training modes and shared (or discoverable) frame data. Most prefer the data be out in the open.

Also stats can only really be "numerical".

I think he is talking more about not making Christiano Ronaldo and Messi a 100/100 number stat and have other players being 60/100, and more about each player having different positive and negatives. At the end of the day, they are still numerical stats in the programming, but they are showed differently to the player, and I think the positive/negatives system would make players more equal, even if CR and Messi will be better.
 

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
Stats are actually visible in fighting games because of training modes and shared (or discoverable) frame data. Most prefer the data be out in the open.

Also stats can only really be "numerical".

What Ridley said. Also, if the hardcore fan wants to dig out the numbers, thats fine, thats what the FGC does like you mentioned, but thats not what 90% of the fanbase does.
 

Devil

Member
I really like your ideas.

I think the problem is that EA (also talking about FIFA here) isn't nowhere close to be able to pull things off like an intelligent system for mental states or chemistry etc.

Just look at how players are rated after a match or in Be A Pro mode (which I always felt uses the same rating system). Attacker in offside position? Minus on your score card, no matter how close or brilliant that play was. Your pass reached it's destination? You're so great, have a plus, no matter how difficult or easy that was. Except if this was your 10th successful pass, then it isn't special anymore, try something more flashy for points you lazy sloth. Your pass didn't connect? What a loser! I don't care whether it was your fault or a just a great interception by the defender.
 

LuchaShaq

Banned
I can't disagree more player ratings in something like nba2k need to be transparent especially how big a difference updates can make during the season.
 

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
I can't disagree more player ratings in something like nba2k need to be transparent especially how big a difference updates can make during the season.

2K is one of the worst offenders, other than a handful of stats, the rest are incredibly obtuse and offer no visible or noticeable plus.

Im not saying dont have stats, Im just saying dont show the raw numbers and instead offer an overall comment about the player, like a written synopsis.
 

Griss

Member
Me and my footy-loving friends have been saying the same for years.

My biggest pet peeve is that everyone on a good team gets good stats, even if they suck. So even though Man Utd have some downright mediocre players, they're more than likely to get better stats than the one or two great players of a relegation-threatened club. Sometimes the squad players for a big team really are shite. (For shite, read average.)

My other pet peeve is that the team doesn't get 'team stats'. When a team is flowing together (see: Liverpool for the last few weeks) everyone's game raises, but it raises as a team. When a team is demoralised (see: Man Utd) the reverse happens. It's not just unconnected players with individual attributes, you know? The team itself is an entity that can be up or down. Strikers are good or bad, yes, but so are strike partnerships. Yet the partnerships themselves don't get stats.

Anyway, to deal with some points:

A secondary problem is that aside from the 5 star teams in a soccer game (soccer heavy thread, sorry!), the rest of them teams, which make up 90 percent of the roster, play like a special needs 10th grade team. Professional soccer players in real life can do every single trick in the book, all can do bicycle kicks and run faster than anybody you know, yet most games try to make their stars look so good that that what ends up happening is that everybody else gets handicapped to a ridiculous, unrealistic level.

This isn't correct. Professional soccer players in the UK have a wide range of skills. I used to watch the Irish national team training as I lived nearby. They were all premier league players but most had a terrible first touch and could not do any tricks. When I went to Brazil's training session before an international friendly the gulf in class was utterly amazing to even the untrained eye. Not all pros are skillful at all. Not all of them need to be. You'll always have your Andy Carroll's and Dan Burn's.

Numerical stats should still be present, just NOT VISIBLE TO THE PLAYER. This is what fighting games do and it works wonders for them, it allows for the following:

-The player to experiment and discover rather than straightaway thinking "this player/team is shit" Right now I never play some of my favorite players because their rating is lower than others, that shouldn't happen

-You will actually play players in the right positions. Ive seen people exploit Fifa by placing players outside their positions because the ratings are above common sense
You nailed this, this is the biggest single thing that should happen. If you want, you should be able to ask a 'coach' who he suggests you play to help newbies pick a good team, but for most of us the player's attributes should be learned as we play. 100% support this idea.

Team play style > Individual player skill

-For the most part, sports players succeed in a system that caters to their strengths and perform worse when out of such a system. Take Steve Nash in basketball or Messi in soccer. If you put Nash in a slow tempo team or put Messi in Argentina (lol) all of a sudden they don't contribute like they usually do.

-When you look at a team, don't have a star rating, just an indication of playstyle, a plus and a minus.
I don't particularly like you put out your specific examples (which I didn't quote), but as I said earlier this is a woefully ignored part of sports, and I'm with you 100% again.

Mental state, Chemistry and location matter!

-Lets say you ignore player "x" all game and then get all of a sudden you need him to make a great run or a good pass ... but he cant execute because hes been ignored all match long and he doesn't have his head in the game. In real life Ive seen that happen plenty of times. Players that have been alienated throughout the match tend to have a hard time performing well, the same should happen in a game, with some key players being able to perform no matter how involved they are in the game (Messi being the obvious choice, this year hes spent most of his time on the pitch walking)

-Some players have a hard time getting motivated playing shit teams, and thus underperform, some teams play to the level of the competition so they look amazing against Real Madrid and play like ass against Phlegm CF. Some players are very professional and can perform the same throughout, so a game should reflect this as well.
Once again I agree, but I feel like the games themselves are too short to actually lend to any change in mental state over the course of a game. Over the course of a season confidence and other mental attributes can come into play, but in a game it's hard to do that in 8 minutes or whatever a game is.

Theres a lot more examples that could be brought up, but I dont want EA to steal all my ideas :p The main idea is to REPLICATE the way fans talk about soccer players, we dont have those numbers in real life, its fun to discover things you didnt know about a player, or to prove somebody else wrong about another player, this method would go a long way in making that happen.
The bolded is the critical part. Especially when you love a player, but won't play him because of his overall rating. Frankly, just removing the overall ratings and leaving the rest would be a massive step forward towards fans dealing with their virtual players as they deal with real ones. You could argue with your friend over what's more important, good hold up play or arial prowess etc. Whereas now there's just a big number stamped on every player's forehead.

Anyway, top post, deserved a reply. Sports games aren't taken seriously enough on here. Some of them, like MLB The Show, are about as good as video games of any genre can be.
 

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
This isn't correct. Professional soccer players in the UK have a wide range of skills. I used to watch the Irish national team training as I lived nearby. They were all premier league players but most had a terrible first touch and could not do any tricks. When I went to Brazil's training session before an international friendly the gulf in class was utterly amazing to even the untrained eye. Not all pros are skillful at all. Not all of them need to be. You'll always have your Andy Carroll's and Dan Burn's.

Thanks for the reply, you raise some great points and Im glad other people are thinking about this too.

To elaborate on the quoted, I have been playing all my life at the amateur level, sometimes on pretty high leagues (a step away from the MLS) and can vouch that the average skill level can do pretty much every trick you see in Fifa. Not in a 1 on 1 edge of the match situation, but in practice? Definitely. For sure there is a huge gap in skill between Ronaldo and Carroll, but the bottom degree of competence is still way above mine, and my skill can do a lot of tricks in game that players in Fifa cant.
 

Griss

Member
Thanks for the reply, you raise some great points and Im glad other people are thinking about this too.

To elaborate on the quoted, I have been playing all my life at the amateur level, sometimes on pretty high leagues (a step away from the MLS) and can vouch that the average skill level can do pretty much every trick you see in Fifa. Not in a 1 on 1 edge of the match situation, but in practice? Definitely. For sure there is a huge gap in skill between Ronaldo and Carroll, but the bottom degree of competence is still way above mine, and my skill can do a lot of tricks in game that players in Fifa cant.

Okay, fair enough. You know what the problem is, then? That the tricks are canned animations. In real life, you might be able to do a trick, but you'd do it so slowly and uselessly that it would be of no benefit in a match. Ronaldo does the same thing in hyper speed and he has beaten two players with it.

Maybe if there was a greater range of outcomes or trick speeds then they could allow all players to do the tricks.

At the moment I feel like Fifa is saying 'this defender would realistically never attempt this trick, so we're not going to let you, as it would be silly'. I'm not too bothered by that, but I guess they could always improve it.
 
I like how All Pro Football 2K8 did their stats. Gold, Silver, Bronze

Gold: 5 Attributes

Silver: 2-3 Attributes

Bronze: 1-2 attributes


Best football game this past generation. Better than Madden on PS4 too.
 
Really interesting post, thanks for sharing. Sports games need to be shaken up. I feel that since EA produces at least 50% of the sports games on the market that this won't happen, but I hope some programmer or designer somewhere is looking at your post and taking notes.
 

Pociask

Member
I like how All Pro Football 2K8 did their stats. Gold, Silver, Bronze

Gold: 5 Attributes

Silver: 2-3 Attributes

Bronze: 1-2 attributes


Best football game this past generation. Better than Madden on PS4 too.


I am all for the removal of meaningless made up stats, and endorse this idea. Or the OP's idea of each player having a SHORT list of strengths and weaknesses. That system still allows a lot of flexibility - a strength could be "Athleticism" for all around boosts, or simply "Speed." Thinking in football terms (American football), it's how players are actually described, so it's a system that has good comprehension for the player, and it's a system that carries substance. Win win.
 

Raging Spaniard

If they are Dutch, upright and breathing they are more racist than your favorite player
I am all for the removal of meaningless made up stats, and endorse this idea. Or the OP's idea of each player having a SHORT list of strengths and weaknesses. That system still allows a lot of flexibility - a strength could be "Athleticism" for all around boosts, or simply "Speed." Thinking in football terms (American football), it's how players are actually described, so it's a system that has good comprehension for the player, and it's a system that carries substance. Win win.

UPSIDE
 
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