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[daegan]

This has nothing to do with harassment training. A worker should not reasonably expect adjusting their clothing to lead to a sexual harassment charge.

It isn't rational to take that as someone sexually harassing another person.

That's the point - what you see as a harmless check of yourself, someone else may see as deliberate calling attention to that area. If this made her uncomfortable, she is 100% within her right to report it, and she should report it, so that it doesn't happen again... I'm not saying any discipline to the OP is necessary and it's pretty clear that there wasn't. Just a verbal warning, because it's obviously a misunderstanding - but it's on you to make sure you aren't taking actions which can be misunderstood. If nobody ever sees your hands go near your crotch, nobody is ever going to think they're there for the wrong reason.

EDIT: Also interesting how few people are mentioning the comment, when that most likely is what caused the actual misunderstanding, 'hey' being a very ambiguous word with a lot of connotations.

 

[Deadly Cyclone]

Man I do this all the time too. Usually just run a finger along the zipper to make sure it's up quickly. That sucks man, is there nothing you can do to appeal?

 

[damisa]

Because none of those involve grabbing at your crotch. When a woman adjusts her bra strap, she doesn't actually touch her boobs, either.

You act like a guy needs to stick his hands down his pants to check if his fly is open. Frankly, I bet a lot of girls also subconsciously check if their fly is open.

 

[Wazzy]

The only mistake OP made was not reporting his coworker to HR for looking at his junk when he was adjusting himself.

However makes it to HR first is usually in the right.

This is dumb.

Thankfully Grime isn't listening to advice like this.

 

[weemadarthur]

On the likelihood of women making false accusations.

Here are recent cases where women who complained about harassment were retaliated against, fired, and suffered economically.

http://www.kitv.com/news/sexual-harassment-lawsuit-filed-against-state-dot/25821934#!bkMGpW

http://www.eeoc.gov/eeoc/newsroom/release/5-29-14c.cfm

Given that only 15% of incidents were being reported at all to management, and fewer were acted on - due to lack of evidence or validity - it is fair to suggest that sexual harassment is underreported.

In the military, nearly 7% of all female members report being sexually assaulted. But many did not report assaults because of doubt that they would be taken seriously. Also true of male victims.

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/apnewsbreak-military-sex-assault-claims-50-pct

If the woman knew that the OP was a marine, these recent news stories could have affected her view of military personnel. Plausibly.

 

[Wickerbasket]

This is dumb.

Thankfully Grime isn't listening to advice like this.

I'm not suggesting anyone actually do that, but it's true that HR usually takes the side of whoever reports it first.

I just think the whole situation is ridiculous, and I hope the OP comes out of it ok.

 

[stufte]

That's the point - what you see as a harmless check of yourself, someone else may see as deliberate calling attention to that area. If this made her uncomfortable, she is 100% within her right to report it, and she should report it, so that it doesn't happen again... I'm not saying any discipline to the OP is necessary and it's pretty clear that there wasn't. Just a verbal warning, because it's obviously a misunderstanding - but it's on you to make sure you aren't taking actions which can be misunderstood. If nobody ever sees your hands go near your crotch, nobody is ever going to think they're there for the wrong reason.

What? It's not like he was doing this:

 

[Igo]

And then why is it embarrassing? Because it makes others uncomfortable, meaning it's inappropriate.

Ideally, fixing your fly or adjusting your package shouldn't make anyone uncomfortable. It's not a big deal and sometimes can't be avoided.

If the situation was truly open for misinterpretation I would expect a reasonable person to be aware of that and let it go. Unless it's super blatant the first time should go down as a possible misunderstanding, second time as suspicious and deserves reporting, and the third is a definite pattern that requires serious managerial action.

 

[Epix]

Was your finger sticking through your fly?

 

[Deleted member 80556]

What? It's not like he was doing this:

THIS KID RETROACTIVELY RUINS THE TRILOGY.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

That's the point - what you see as a harmless check of yourself, someone else may see as deliberate calling attention to that area. If this made her uncomfortable, she is 100% within her right to report it, and she should report it, so that it doesn't happen again... I'm not saying any discipline to the OP is necessary and it's pretty clear that there wasn't. Just a verbal warning, because it's obviously a misunderstanding - but it's on you to make sure you aren't taking actions which can be misunderstood. If nobody ever sees your hands go near your crotch, nobody is ever going to think they're there for the wrong reason.

EDIT: Also interesting how few people are mentioning the comment, when that most likely is what caused the actual misunderstanding, 'hey' being a very ambiguous word with a lot of connotations.

Maybe. But that's a pretty extreme and damaging action to take against someone for a one off awkward and perfectly natural situation. Just as a woman might be breastfeeding, adjusting her bra, skirt, etc. Does that plus talking mean harassment? It's taking sexual harassment policy to a scary extreme.

And of course this is assuming the OP is telling the story completely as is.

 

[Kinitari]

I think the best advice is just to keep on top of this. Remember what happened, write it down - if you have anything formal you can write it down on, go for it - because it might come back to bite you in the ass. Let's say it happens again, but is something that is entirely out of context - you trip over a loose wire and in your fumbling touch someones bum. They only see the bum touching and go to the upper management. They might believe your "I tripped" story, if it wasn't the second time you've been talked to for sexual misconduct or whatever.

I -really- don't like the idea of someone getting in trouble for something so inane, and I would hope that all my co-workers would have the state of mind to understand that something accidental or silly like what the OP did isn't worth the breath spent mentioning it again.

That's the point - what you see as a harmless check of yourself, someone else may see as deliberate calling attention to that area. If this made her uncomfortable, she is 100% within her right to report it, and she should report it, so that it doesn't happen again... I'm not saying any discipline to the OP is necessary and it's pretty clear that there wasn't. Just a verbal warning, because it's obviously a misunderstanding - but it's on you to make sure you aren't taking actions which can be misunderstood. If nobody ever sees your hands go near your crotch, nobody is ever going to think they're there for the wrong reason.

EDIT: Also interesting how few people are mentioning the comment, when that most likely is what caused the actual misunderstanding, 'hey' being a very ambiguous word with a lot of connotations.

I honestly don't want to live in your world. Maybe it's just the sort of professional environment I've been in, but this sort of stuff isn't something I'd ever have to worry about.

 

[daegan]

Ideally, fixing your fly or adjusting your package shouldn't make anyone uncomfortable. It's not a big deal and sometimes can't be avoided.

If the situation was truly open for misinterpretation I would expect a reasonable person to be aware of that and let it go. Unless it's super blatant the first time should go down as a possible misunderstanding, second time as suspicious and deserves reporting, and the third is a definite patterned and requires serious management action.

See and it's funny because that's literally exactly what happened - management understands it was a misunderstanding and told him to be careful. Unless he does something really stupid nothing else will ever come of this and it will eventually disappear.

 

[daegan]

Maybe. But that's a pretty extreme and damaging action to take against someone for a one off awkward and perfectly natural situation. It's taking sexual harassment policy to a scary extreme.

And of course this is assuming the OP is telling the story completely as is.

Not really, that's what it's there for. Someone is making you uncomfortable in the workplace, you report it, after that whatever happens is out of your hands. Very rarely do "harassment" cases result in actual termination because of intent; they're hard to prove.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

Damn, OP..that's a shitty situation..sorry.

 

[TrueGrime]

Was your finger sticking through your fly?

It was up. To be exact, four fingers making sure zipper flap was over the zipper. Two fingers of my other hand slid up and down the length of the zipper to make sure it was fully closed.

 

[Wazzy]

I'm not suggesting anyone actually do that, but it's true that HR usually takes the side of whoever reports it first.

I just think the whole situation is ridiculous, and I hope the OP comes out of it ok.

By saying the OP made a mistake you're encouraging that kind of advice. I agree it was a silly misunderstanding but reporting her would be just as dumb.

I don't think she was being malicious and maybe she did see things differently. The only issue I take with her rushing to report is that it wasn't a clear situation and was a first time and I think things like that should not be rushed on if it isn't clear.

Either way, it's not a big deal and things settled well for both.

 

[Bam Bam Baklava]

That's the point - what you see as a harmless check of yourself, someone else may see as deliberate calling attention to that area. If this made her uncomfortable, she is 100% within her right to report it, and she should report it, so that it doesn't happen again... I'm not saying any discipline to the OP is necessary and it's pretty clear that there wasn't. Just a verbal warning, because it's obviously a misunderstanding - but it's on you to make sure you aren't taking actions which can be misunderstood. If nobody ever sees your hands go near your crotch, nobody is ever going to think they're there for the wrong reason.

EDIT: Also interesting how few people are mentioning the comment, when that most likely is what caused the actual misunderstanding, 'hey' being a very ambiguous word with a lot of connotations.

This seems like an extreme view to take. Today I was in a restaurant waiting in line and my hand accidentally hit a woman's purse who was in front of me. She could have easily reacted like I was trying to rob her but she understood it was just a mistake.

People make mistakes we can't be perfect 100% of the time. It's up to all of us to be understanding of that and react accordingly.

 

[Wickerbasket]

See and it's funny because that's literally exactly what happened - management understands it was a misunderstanding and told him to be careful. Unless he does something really stupid nothing else will ever come of this and it will eventually disappear.

I don't know, it sounds to me like he's being made to feel uncomfortable in his own workplace and told to avoid the break room while she's there.

Seems to be like he's being treated like he's the guilty party.

 

[adamsappel]

What? It's not like he was doing this:

Has nobody ever contacted the kid and asked him what he was doing?

 

[Kinitari]

See and it's funny because that's literally exactly what happened - management understands it was a misunderstanding and told him to be careful. Unless he does something really stupid nothing else will ever come of this and it will eventually disappear.

No it's not what literally happened. This was the first time, and it wasn't 'let go'. It was brought to a higher ups attention. That is like... the opposite of letting something go. And this sort of thing can cause problems for the OP in the future - lets say someone DOES decide to be malicious one day in the future (I doubt this woman was trying to be) - now it's "well Grimes, if this was the first time someone had brought something like this to our attention, maybe... but"

 

[Kinyou]

(Can't people check without touching? You just look down, right?)

I still feel like putting your hand down there and just feeling the zipper can look questionable, so I'd probably prefer to do it in the restroom, or ask a friend.

For the OP, I'm guessing it wasn't vulgar. He sounds like a conscientious person. However, it's still always "ehhh" for me when it involves hands near the pubic region.

Checking with your hand is the easiest, fastest and, if done right, the least obvious way. Depending on your gut you might not even see it until you lean forward. And of course should people check in the bathroom, sometimes you just forget it.

 

[Nealand Liquor]

She took it the wrong way. Seems stupid that they automatically think you're guilty.

Seems egotistical that she automatically thinks he's touching himself because she's in the room. Reminds me of my cousin that wears very revealing clothing and then complains about guys checking her out.

 

[Stet]

Has nobody ever contacted the kid and asked him what he was doing?

He's motioning for the camera to move in. That kid was the Director of Photography on BttF3.

 

[Wazzy]

Seems egotistical that she automatically thinks he's touching himself because she's in the room. Reminds me of my cousin that wears very revealing clothing and then complains about guys checking her out.

Maybe because even if someone decides to wear revealing clothing men shouldn't be staring?

That is not even close to comparable to OP's situation.

 

[besada]

Grime, kudos to you for the professionalism and calm with which you accepted the difficult situation you we're put in. It's a shame that it happened, but I think your interpretation of it simply being an excess of caution on everyone's part is probably right. You're a good man.

I've had to counsel an employee about sexual harassment, and it's tough, particularly because it's impossible to know who did what and how things really went down.

Proud to have you as a GAFfer, unlike some of the guys in here, whose names are now mostly gray.

 

[The Librarian]

Sorry to hear that, TrueGrime. Seems like an unfortunate case of misunderstanding.

It has happened to me at my last job at my university. Somebody thought I yelled at a client while I was doing AV work for them (I don't remember, and I would've remembered yelling). Next thing I know I'm not allowed to work ballroom shifts.

I hate how it seems that a lot of the working world deals with people and not facts.

 

[.GqueB.]

Has nobody ever contacted the kid and asked him what he was doing?

He had to pee.

 

[daegan]

No it's not what literally happened. This was the first time, and it wasn't 'let go'. It was brought to a higher ups attention. That is like... the opposite of letting something go. And this sort of thing can cause problems for the OP in the future - lets say someone DOES decide to be malicious one day in the future (I doubt this woman was trying to be) - now it's "well Grimes, if this was the first time someone had brought something like this to our attention, maybe... but"

If he does something like that again, of course it could happen; as the OP seems like he realizes that he messed up, I doubt it would, unless it was deliberate. Again, these kinds of things just do not happen often and ESPECIALLY people need cause for real punitive action to be taken. Things like this are not. There is no arena in which he is in jeopardy unless he does something again in a relatively short amount of time.

I don't know, it sounds to me like he's being made to feel uncomfortable in his own workplace and told to avoid the break room while she's there.

Seems to be like he's being treated like he's the guilty party.

Yes, it's funny, when you make people uncomfortable you tend to get told to not hang around and not do what you did again. Particularly when the thing he seems to be "guilty" of (your words, not mine) comes from being too comfortable in his environment and letting his guard down.

Again, seriously - nobody can misconstrue your hands being by your dick if your hands aren't by your dick!

 

[Nealand Liquor]

Maybe because even if someone decides to wear revealing clothing men shouldn't be staring?

That is not even close to comparable to OP's situation.

No, not in this situation. You see, I actually know my cousin and I can say 100% she does it for the attention, then complains about it for the attention.

 

[User 100115]

In this thread, we see the answer to the common question people often ask around here: "Why didn't she just report it?"

Grimes, you handled the situation well. Well done.

Everyone screaming for retaliation, calling her a bitch, and threatening violence....you are the reason only 15% of such things are actually reported. Good job.

Spoiler

. That last good job was sarcastic of course.

 

[HighAmperage]

Again, seriously - nobody can misconstrue your hands being by your dick if your hands aren't by your dick!

What about reaching into a front pocket? Does that qualify as too comfortable or unprofessional?

 

[Wazzy]

No, not in this situation. You see, I actually know my cousin and I can say 100% she does it for the attention, then complains about it for the attention.

Then phrase it "my cousin wears revealing clothing for attention but then complains about attention" instead of phrasing it like someone wearing revealing clothing must be wanting attention.

Plus, are those situations exclusive to one time? or did she say it but on other days complains? because you can still complain about unwanted attention when you're not trying to seek it.

 

[Riposte]

Could this situation have been avoided with velcro?

 

[TrueGrime]

Grime, kudos to you for the professionalism and calm with which you accepted the difficult situation you we're put in. It's a shame that it happened, but I think your interpretation of it simply being an excess of caution on everyone's part is probably right. You're a good man.

I've had to counsel an employee about sexual harassment, and it's tough, particularly because it's impossible to know who did what and how things really went down.

Proud to have you as a GAFfer, unlike some of the guys in here, whose names are now mostly gray.

Appreciate it, Besada. It's interesting to see the discussion and arguments placed here. Even when I already admitted I was in the wrong in at least bring appropriate. A few posts might have been damn overboard, but for the most part the discussion has been civil.

Sorry to hear that, TrueGrime. Seems like an unfortunate case of misunderstanding.

It has happened to me at my last job at my university. Somebody thought I yelled at a client while I was doing AV work for them (I don't remember, and I would've remembered yelling). Next thing I know I'm not allowed to work ballroom shifts.

I hate how it seems that a lot of the working world deals with people and not facts.

See. That's the thing that would scare me the most. Something as simple as a misunderstanding can affect you. In your case, it was a lot more severe than just avoiding someone. Your whole schedule got changed. Another case where I would be completely livid.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

What about reaching into a front pocket? Does that qualify as too comfortable or unprofessional?

This is confusing. What is the standard? I mean, would a woman's hand being even anywhere near her breasts? Seems like it would.

Or as I said before, breastfeeding. Its natural and there is a movement to allow it anywhere. If a woman happens to greet someone with her breast out feeding, is that sufficient too?

I'm sorry. I just can't agree with adjusting clothing leading anywhere near sexual harassment allegations.

 

[Wickerbasket]

Yes, it's funny, when you make people uncomfortable you tend to get told to not hang around and not do what you did again. Particularly when the thing he seems to be "guilty" of (your words, not mine) comes from being too comfortable in his environment and letting his guard down.

Again, seriously - nobody can misconstrue your hands being by your dick if your hands aren't by your dick!

I just don't understand why OP has to make the effort of staying out of the break room when he wasn't at fault.

It seems like HR is covering their asses at the expense of OP.

I seriously wonder how people like his coworker function in life if they feel sexually harassed every time they see someone adjusting their clothing in public.

Would you seriously feel the same way about the situation if the genders were reversed and a woman was adjusting her dress/bra strap?

 

[TrueGrime]

Could this situation have been avoided with velcro?

Haha. You know.. 9 times out of 10, I wouldn't be walking around there in my civilian clothes at all. It just so happens I had to go off base during that time. Unlike other services, Marines aren't allowed to leave base in either their camouflage utilities or flight suits. I out have been in my flight suit in any normal circumstance and you never walk around with that at least being zipped up to your chest.

 

[besada]

Have a friend report on her for doing something sexually inappropriate. I mean really, if she can make something up so can anyone else. She's a temp, so she'll probably be terminated immediately. But she'll learn a valuable lesson, and one which she absolutely deserves/needs to learn.

This is the dumbest advice in a thread full of dumb advice I've ever seen. It's petty, mean-spirited, draws a third person into an unfortunate misunderstanding, would almost certainly blow up in someone's face, and is against the law. You should be ashamed of yourself.

 

[Kinitari]

If he does something like that again, of course it could happen; as the OP seems like he realizes that he messed up, I doubt it would, unless it was deliberate. Again, these kinds of things just do not happen often and ESPECIALLY people need cause for real punitive action to be taken. Things like this are not. There is no arena in which he is in jeopardy unless he does something again in a relatively short amount of time.

I specifically said if someone decided to be malicious. That means if someone decided to knowingly cause him shit - which, do you not think is something that could potentially happen?

If he 'does something like this again' - as in, does nothing offensive but has someone misconstrue it as offensive you are okay with him in getting in even more trouble? My point isn't about the likelihood of him having another mishap with a co-worker (not that unlikely) my point is that this mishap should in no way shape and form have any negative repercussions for him at work.

 

[Nealand Liquor]

Then phrase it "my cousin wears revealing clothing for attention but then complains about attention" instead of phrasing it like someone wearing revealing clothing must be wanting attention.

Plus, are those situations exclusive to one time? or did she say it but on other days complains? because you can still complain about unwanted attention when you're not trying to seek it.

Sorry you misunderstood what I said. Just thinking about this guys situation, made me think of all the millions of times I've heard her go on about sexual harassment. She even once went on for hours about how one of my groomsmen and his friend of mine were "eye raping" her at my wedding. I let her make a fool out of herself infront of everybody, then let her know my buddy was gay. She is just a fantastic person.

So no she does it a lot and it is tiring.

 

[APF]

Or as I said before, breastfeeding. Its natural and there is a movement to allow it anywhere. If a woman happens to greet someone with her breast out feeding, is that sufficient too?

My workplace has a private room where a mother can breastfeed or change their child, etc. Doing so in the greater office area would be inappropriate and unprofessional.

 

[BlackJace]

Well, if it makes you feel any better, you sound like a very mature individual. I admire the calm and reflective stance you seem to be taking. I fully expected your post to end with myriad insults directed at her (thus derailing the thread forever).

I totally disagree with the harassment claim though, I wouldn't say it was your fault at all, OP.

 

[TrueGrime]

I just don't understand why OP has to make the effort of staying out of the break room when he wasn't at fault.

It sucks but I understand it. The fact of the matter is that civilian and military politics when it comes to things like this don't mix. We would rather avoid any other misunderstandings.

 

[s3ltzer]

Women in the workforce, and especially in the military, have to be careful. I don't blame her. Sucks this happened to you though.

This..

but sadly, this situation has been a work-in-progress by the males in charge.

 

[GameGuru59]

I religiously check my fly every time after I'm done using the restroom for exactly this reason. It's a habit at this point. I feel bad for you but I think this happened b/c the military is coming down hard on sexual assault now.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

My workplace has a private room where a mother can breastfeed or change their child, etc. Doing so in the greater office area would be inappropriate and unprofessional.

I understand that. But if I'm not mistaken, there is a movement to not have to hide it. I mean it is a natural thing after all. We all have to eat.


Edit: And yeah I understand sexual harassment issues and why they exist. But it just sucks someone gets flagged for an innocent, non-malicious thing.

 

[Wickerbasket]

It sucks but I understand it. The fact of the matter is that civilian and military politics when it comes to things like this don't mix. We would rather avoid any other misunderstandings.

You're being very mature and understanding about this situation, so a lot of props for that.

Anyway, I hope things go well for you in the future at work and, with luck, nothing else like this pops up.

 

[wildfire]

This wasn't your fault. I have the presence of mind to check myself right before I open the bathroom door. Even then I messed up once.

You like many men had the decency to think about how it could make yourself and others caught with your fly open.

Two informal counselings usually equals a former counseling that goes into your record permanently. Doesn't matter if you're innocent or guilty, having anything on your record dealing with sexual harassment can fuck you up military career wise. My boss told me he knows it'll never happen again but if it does he'll have to take steps and I am no longer allowed to hang out in the break room while she's there since I have to stay clear of her from now on.

This part aggravates me the most because you should be able to talk to the people who have a problem with you. A neutral third party may be needed to monitor that meeting but that's what HR should be for, conflict resolution.

Man just treat her like she doesn't exist. Don't get involved with stupid people.

It will be a problem if she spreads rumors but who knows if she is talkative.

 

[APF]

I understand that. But if I'm not mistaken, there is a movement to not have to hide it. I mean it is a natural thing after all. We all have to eat.

We also have to defecate, but at least where I work we go to a private area in the office to do this. To the best of my knowledge, public breastfeeding advocates are more concerned with public areas than private businesses that are not open to the public, so long as the latter makes accommodations for mothers.