I just got counseled for workplace sexual harassment

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Seems like a giant misunderstanding. The OP says he said, "hey" in a odd manner. I'm sure if he explained it to her and said it was a misunderstanding there wouldn't be a problem. (I skimmed through read the entire thread, so if he did please disregard my post for I am an idiot).
 
ICKE said:
I never implied this woman hates him, what I have said is that she has completely failed to exercise any sort of meaningful judgment. There is nothing to misinterpret. If you see a coworker adjust his or her clothing, as suggestive as it may be, there is absolutely no reason to report it at that point. You shrug your shoulders and move on, you should always give people the benefit of the doubt. If it is not an isolated incident and you see a pattern, then take action.
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As I noted earlier, she could've mentioned it as a possible sexual thing. If it was very possible to interpret that way, it's good to mention about it.
SkeptiMism said:
Huh? In case it happens more frequently for example? In that case it'd very heavily seem like the guy would be touching his junk and implying things to women when they see it, but if nobody ever mentioned about it, nothing would be done about it.
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Stet said:
I walked around for three hours today completely unzipped. I guess that's better??
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I remember one day in JR high I walked down the hallway feeling like the coolest guy in the world. I was getting all the looks. People were smiling and saying hey. I believe I even began to strut till I reached the stairs and realized my fly was down the entire time. For the rest of the day...
arrested-developmen-george-michael-sad-walk.gif
 
ICKE said:
I never implied this woman hates him, what I have said is that she has completely failed to exercise any sort of meaningful judgment. There is nothing to misinterpret. If you see a coworker adjust his or her clothing, as suggestive as it may be, there is absolutely no reason to report it at that point. You shrug your shoulders and move on, you should always give people the benefit of the doubt. If it is not an isolated incident and you see a pattern, then take action.
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But you don't know what she saw. All we have is the description of the event from one side of it. It is not reasonable to come to conclusions about who gets what benefit of the doubt based on the descriptions of a biased actor. I can agree that it probably wasn't worth reporting but I'm not going to condemn her for it based on the information we have.

I feel far more strongly about the other people in this thread casually tossing out their judgments with sexist insults and frankly sickening suggestions.

By the way, total apologies for the line about her hating him. That was totally putting words in your mouth. I think I was thinking of somebody else's post for that bit.
 
DustyVonEric said:
Does the informal go in your record as well, OP?

Like if you eventually transfer, would that informal counselling follow you? Or is it like a mental note for your higher-ups?

Is there any way that you can "lawyer up" or get some type of representation to get that informal cleared or no longer considered? I don't know if taking that step would just make things worse or more embarrassing by shining a spot light on it (or somehow pit you and your higher ups against each other), but it has to be absolutely stressful living with the fear of a second strike hanging over your head.

Either way, good luck OP. We're pulling for ya.
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No. It will not go on my record. Informal counselings can be verbal or written. Written of course holds more weight if there was another situation that occurs when it comes to this topic. A verbal informal counseling is the lowest form of "official" counseling there can be.

Of course, if I felt there was a great injustice I could opt to "request mas" which is the military version of the start of an official investigation. This is too much of a small matter for that and would involve the topic going past by immediate boss up my command chain.

However, through all the ifs, ands, or buts in what happened the only fact that could be said about what happened is that it was, without a doubt, inappropriate. There is no way to refute that even at the lowest level.
 
theWB27 said:
I didn't blame her. I'm saying, if the story we got is true, there should've been tact on her end also. Never did I imply she shouldn't be protected. I stated the environment she's in, she accepted the job, I think would require a bit more thought on handling certain situations. Because they handle certain situations different than civilian life. They ask that of the soldiers, I don't think it's too much to ask of the people working around them. Thanks for taking that sentence out of context. : )
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In my defence, not a whole lot to go on there, it just sounded like "oh she was in a dodgy area" sort of thing.

My point is that having a system that is reliant on two peoples perceptions of what just happened aligning is daft, because it's not going to happen in every instance, indeed it seems it hasn't here. Behaviour isn't necessarily universally interpreted, and so a mediatory system should attempt to reconcile the differences in interpretation.
 
I'm a bit OCD, and I used to check my zipper a lot, to the point where my index finger has callouses near the knuckle area. This reminds me to keep myself in check. I've worked with people (male and female) who seem to automatically blow shit out of proportion, even if they weren't necessarily intending to be outright malicious. Life can really be one particularly bad episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm.
 
backslashbunny said:
All of the above.



@OP - You sound like a really nice guy that made a small mistake, even an social gaffe, and you were really unlucky to have run into her the same time you did.

I would hope the lesson most people from this is-- check your junk in the bathroom. Adjust your bras and boobs, your crouch, your underwear, your balls... whatever... in the bathroom. If it's REALLY vulgar, a stall.



*edit- I wonder how many of the posters here saying "what the hell, everyone does this" are dudes. I know *some* men that openly check their zipper or adjust their balls in public, but generally most men seem to realize it's probably inappropriate. The OP seemed to realized that it's something to be done with you're alone (hence thinking that no one else was there).

I wouldn't report someone for sexual harassment, but I certainly think it's in poor taste to do it openly. Grabbing yourself in public is just vulgar, even when it's not sexual.
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People try to avoid doing it in public because it embarrassing, not because it is inappropriate or harassment.

Sometimes zippers don't stay where you put them, and sometimes shit just gets twisted up down there. What are we supposed to do? Go walk somewhere private to adjust things?

Seems the better solution to this problem is 'What the fuck were you looking at his crotch for anyway?'. It's not like we ever take women adjusting bra straps as a sexual advance. It can not possibly be harassment when the person doing the act did not intend for you to see it and is embarrassed that you did.
 
User33 said:
Anything else this could have been about OP?
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Don't think do. Like I said, I saw her around the break room but never spoke to her. The building isn't large so you pass by people all the time. We don't all mingle together anyway. Usually companies that come in to work there keep to themselves and the permanent personnel do the same. Don't even know her name but I easily stand out because I am only one of two Marines that work in that building.
 
Reminds me of one time I told a guy who works in another department where I work "I hope it doesn't happen again". That's it....that's all I said. Next thing I know, I get an e-mail from my supervisor saying the other guy felt like I threatened his life and he demanded an apology. My boss knows me and knew that wasn't the case. It was just a simple case of something on his end messing up that caused a few headaches for me. I might have used a poor choice of words, but there was never intention behind it, not even in the tone of my voice. I still had to send an e-mail apologizing to the guy, though.

Sometimes people just take things the wrong way, and the way the work place is with how nobody wants someone to be offended by anything, they always side with the "victim".
 
Wthermans said:
The military sounds like a horrible place to work.
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OP makes it seem like it was fine before this.

At every job there is always that one person fucking it up for everyone. Jesus Christ, how the hell could she confuse that, he was exiting the restroom for crying out loud. That's so sad that his side of the explanation is worthless too. If it happens again it effects his career whether its baseless or not.

Now he has to go to work paranoid, thats just fucked up.
 
P44 said:
In my defence, not a whole lot to go on there, it just sounded like "oh she was in a dodgy area" sort of thing.

My point is that having a system that is reliant on two peoples perceptions of what just happened aligning is daft, because it's not going to happen in every instance, indeed it seems it hasn't here. Behaviour isn't necessarily universally interpreted, and so a mediatory system should attempt to reconcile the differences in interpretation.
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No problem. Yes, I agree there should be another party.
 
I sympathize for both parties. They are both victims of circumstance. She felt sexually harassed. He was reprimanded for something he wasn't guilty of.

Very sad situation.
 
Wormdundee said:
But you don't know what she saw. All we have is the description of the event from one side of it. It is not reasonable to come to conclusions about who gets what benefit of the doubt based on the descriptions of a biased actor. I can agree that it probably wasn't worth reporting but I'm not going to condemn her for it based on the information we have.

I feel far more strongly about the other people in this thread casually tossing out their judgments with sexist insults and frankly sickening suggestions.
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Fair enough.

I just believe we should all do our part to get along and always have the assumption that people have good intentions. At some point an innocent deed can come across as something it is not. If at that moment the first impulse is to assume the worst and then act on it right away, then that's not going to be exactly the best work environment.

edit : No need for apologies. I know saying "loon" is a bit silly but so is this sort of needless drama when people are just trying to do their job.
 
What fucking prude person it takes to go this far for such a stupid thing.

OP, that's not your fault, well, it's more being at the wrong place at the wrong moment.
 
daegan said:
And then why is it embarrassing? Because it makes others uncomfortable, meaning it's inappropriate.
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Also, embarrassment usually carries the connotation of being caused by an act that is merely socially unacceptable, rather than morally wrong.
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Lots of things can be socially unacceptable and/or embarrassing without being inappropriate or offensive. Including many things that are wholly involuntary or accidental.
 
So you're telling me you didn't have sex with her?

Damn. I constantly adjust my fly, it's a nervous habit. I guess I should be more conscious of it.
 
daegan said:
And then why is it embarrassing? Because it makes others uncomfortable, meaning it's inappropriate.
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Do you think it's appropriate to report someone for sexual harassment if they adjust their bra strap or skirt while walking past you?

I don't feel there's anything inappropriate about checking to see if your fly is down; it's part of your trousers, it's not even your underwear. It would be embarrassing if the fly was infact down because people don't like others seeing their underwear/junk, it has nothing to do with it offending others.

If someone adjusting their clothing makes you uncomfortable, then I really don't know what to say.
 
iamblades said:
Lots of things can be socially unacceptable and/or embarrassing without being inappropriate or offensive. Including many things that are wholly involuntary or accidental.
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Right but this isn't an and/or situation and we're not even on the subject of this being offensive. She may not have even been offended! But it is inappropriate and you pretty obviously shouldn't play with the crotch of your pants at work; you ESPECIALLY shouldn't call attention to it immediately afterwards, even if you're just trying to show that you were embarrassed with the exception of "oh man i'm sorry, i didn't realize you were there"

Again, I am seriously amazed at the number of people here who either have never had or who have completely ignored their harassment training. The onus isn't on someone to not be harassed, it is on everyone to not harass. And yes, that includes "harmless" things like this - because harmless to you isn't to someone else.
 
Wickerbasket said:
Do you think it's appropriate to report someone for sexual harassment if they adjust their bra strap or skirt while walking past you?

I don't feel there's anything inappropriate about checking to see if your fly is down; it's part of your trousers, it's not even your underwear. It would be embarrassing if the fly was infact down because people don't like others seeing their underwear/junk, it has nothing to do with it offending others.

If someone adjusting their clothing makes you uncomfortable, then I really don't know what to say.
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That's how you feel. That's probably not how she felt.
 
daegan said:
Right but this isn't an and/or situation and we're not even on the subject of this being offensive. She may not have even been offended! But it is inappropriate and you pretty obviously shouldn't play with the crotch of your pants at work; you ESPECIALLY shouldn't call attention to it immediately afterwards, even if you're just trying to show that you were embarrassed with the exception of "oh man i'm sorry, i didn't realize you were there"

Again, I am seriously amazed at the number of people here who either have never had or who have completely ignored their harassment training. The onus isn't on someone to not be harassed, it is on everyone to not harass. And yes, that includes "harmless" things like this - because harmless to you isn't to someone else.
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So you feel the same way about a woman adjusting her skirt, dress, or bra strap when not in the bathroom?
 
It's good that it was only verbal counseling. What you should do is write down everything, document the names of everyone involved, times to the best you can remember, and what happened. And then just hold onto that shit. But if anything else happens, go straight to the area defense counsel (or whatever the equivalent for your branch is, if all branches don't have an ADC office). In the event you get in more shit for this same thing or something relating to it, go see them and get some advise.
That was something I wish I had done differently while I was in, not letting things slide and thinking 'Eh, it's only some verbal counseling' or 'it's only an LOC' or 'well, an LOR isn't that big a deal compared to an Article 15' whenever I would do something dumb or whenever someone would decide they had it out for me. Someone would say "You know you have the right to write a response, right?" and I would think ''yeah, that wasn't even that big a deal, I'll let it slide cuz no one is even going to care.' But every small thing adds up quick and when you wind up in a Commander's office with all of those small things being brought up, it feels pretty shitty to realize that you were dumb and should have been taking care of those things when they happened.
I might have felt a bit better about my enlistment when I got out had I not let people dick me over all the time...
 
daegan said:
Yes; it's unprofessional, though a "hey" after you're picking your teeth is less likely to imply anything.
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Okay come on this is being ridiculous.

It is not unprofessional to adjust your fly. If you're scratching your crotch or touching that area longer than necessary then yes, that's inappropriate but quickly trying to zip up your fly is not.
 
AtomskEater said:
OP didn't really say whether the hall was clear when he started. Some other posters assume that she must have been in the hall at least from the point that he came out of the bathroom.
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The hall being clear <> the coast being clear. For instance there could be people in front of you with their backs to you, or people walking behind you. The coast would still be clear in these two cases as checking the zipper is pretty slight of hand and inconspicuous when nobody has direct contact with you or your zipper.
 
daegan said:
Right but this isn't an and/or situation and we're not even on the subject of this being offensive. She may not have even been offended! But it is inappropriate and you pretty obviously shouldn't play with the crotch of your pants at work; you ESPECIALLY shouldn't call attention to it immediately afterwards, even if you're just trying to show that you were embarrassed with the exception of "oh man i'm sorry, i didn't realize you were there"

Again, I am seriously amazed at the number of people here who either have never had or who have completely ignored their harassment training. The onus isn't on someone to not be harassed, it is on everyone to not harass. And yes, that includes "harmless" things like this - because harmless to you isn't to someone else.
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This has nothing to do with harassment training. A worker should not reasonably expect adjusting their clothing to lead to a sexual harassment charge.

It isn't rational to take that as someone sexually harassing another person.
 
I grab my belt to adjust it, and while I'm doing that I let my thumb swing low and brush the top of the fly to check it's closed. Nobody suspects the belt check. Then no harassment.

but that sucks, OP.
 
Wazzy said:
Okay come on this is being ridiculous.

It is not unprofessional to adjust your fly. If you're scratching your crotch or touching that area longer than necessary than yes, that's inappropriate but quickly trying to zip up your fly is not.
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It absolutely can be, and it's not something I would risk around anybody that I didn't have quite a bit of rapport with first, if I risked it at all.

FunkyMunkey said:
So you feel the same way about a woman adjusting her skirt, dress, or bra strap when not in the bathroom?
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What you or I feel is not relevant. That's not how the world works, and particularly not how situations like this work.
 
Wickerbasket said:
That's fine, I just don't think her feelings being hurt over nothing is worth someone potentially losing their job.
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You say it's nothing, but she might not have known he was just checking his fly. Maybe she thought he intentionally touched his crotch before saying hi to her. There's no way to know with the information given.
 
ApatheticDolphin said:
Because none of those involve grabbing at your crotch. When a woman adjusts her bra strap, she doesn't actually touch her boobs, either.
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I've never actually touched my penis while checking my zipper. Ever. If the OP checked the top of his zipper, that's not even where the penis is anatomically.
 
daegan said:
It absolutely can be, and it's not something I would risk around anybody that I didn't have quite a bit of rapport with first, if I risked it at all.



What you or I feel is not relevant. That's not how the world works, and particularly not how situations like this work.
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How exactly can it be?

You're not rubbing your crotch, you're not sticking your hand down your pants.

You're grabbing a zipper and trying to make sure it's zipped up. It's pretty much a 5 second act unless it's stuck. If he was adjusting for a minute or so then yeah, maybe that might be inappropriate but quickly making sure your fly is up is not.
 
daegan said:
What you or I feel is not relevant. That's not how the world works, and particularly not how situations like this work.
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Unfortunately, just feeling something wrong has happened to you doesn't really make it so. You're advocating for people to be brought up on sexual harassment for adjusting their clothes, and I think that's lunacy.

It's a shame that people have to be fearful of fraudulent sexual harassment claims, because it can ruin lives and takes attention away from real cases of sexual harassment.
 
someday said:
My post was in direct response to someone equating it to a woman adjusting her breasts. That's all I really meant. Although I do agree with the following post:
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Eh. I'm sorry but that post comes from a place of ignorance a bit. When I check my junk I'm often unaware that I'm even doing it. I'm just sly about it. Never have I thought "time to check my junk" before doing it. I've just gotten used to not doing it while someone is looking dead at me. But the OP made a mistake in the his instance.
 
.GqueB. said:
Eh. I'm sorry but that post comes from a place of ignorance a bit. When I check my junk I'm often unaware that I'm even doing it. I'm just sly about it. Never have I thought "time to check my junk" before doing it. I've just gotten used to not doing it while someone is looking dead at me. But the OP made a mistake in the his instance.
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The only mistake OP made was not reporting his coworker to HR for looking at his junk when he was checking his zipper.

Whoever makes it to HR first is usually in the right.
 
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