I just got counseled for workplace sexual harassment

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The only correct answer for dealing with it now is total avoidance of the person. Like cross the street and walk on the opposite sidewalk and never make eye contact. Look away and up.
 
Kinitari said:
I specifically said if someone decided to be malicious. That means if someone decided to knowingly cause him shit - which, do you not think is something that could potentially happen?

If he 'does something like this again' - as in, does nothing offensive but has someone misconstrue it as offensive you are okay with him in getting in even more trouble? My point isn't about the likelihood of him having another mishap with a co-worker (not that unlikely) my point is that this mishap should in no way shape and form have any negative repercussions for him at work.
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The first part of your post is pretty unlikely for a lot of reasons. False reporting isn't terribly common and it takes a decent amount of investigation and some form of cause one way for someone to be able to "cause shit".

The second part of your post - yes because in situations like this it doesn't matter what you feel about your actions, what matters is how they make the people around you feel. I am sure if you were to ask most people who have gone through a similar situation they would tell you the same thing - total misunderstanding, didn't mean anything by it, etc. And a lot of them, probably most of them, would be being truthful. But that doesn't matter. If you have someone consistently acting out in a way that makes others uncomfortable, particularly sexually, you have to act. It's your responsibility as an employer.

Wickerbasket said:
I just don't understand why OP has to make the effort of staying out of the break room when he wasn't at fault.

It seems like HR is covering their asses at the expense of OP.

I seriously wonder how people like his coworker function in life if they feel sexually harassed every time they see someone adjusting their clothing in public.

Would you seriously feel the same way about the situation if the genders were reversed and a woman was adjusting her dress/bra strap?
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This is like the tree episode of Aqua Teen Hunger Force. "He did it, and he's sorry." "Right, but he still DID IT." And he did! And they are! And you would be a foolish employer in the public or private sector to not react that way.

And if the genders were reversed and it was a man who felt uncomfortable because of something a woman did? Yes, sure, because someone still feels harassed and that's just how you have to react to that.

EDIT: For the record, I think Grime is taking this in a pretty standup fashion, as pretty much everyone has agreed on.
 
Nealand Liquor said:
Sorry you misunderstood what I said. Just thinking about this guys situation, made me think of all the millions of times I've heard her go on about sexual harassment. She even once went on for hours about how one of my groomsmen and his friend of mine were "eye raping" her at my wedding. I let her make a fool out of herself infront of everybody, then let her know my buddy was gay. She is just a fantastic person.
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HNNNGH....reminds me of this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tzgTllHVNqQ
 
cTUXtU4.jpg


This thread is going all kinds of places.
 
daegan said:
The first part of your post is pretty unlikely for a lot of reasons. False reporting isn't terribly common and it takes a decent amount of investigation and some form of cause one way for someone to be able to "cause shit".

The second part of your post - yes because in situations like this it doesn't matter what you feel about your actions, what matters is how they make the people around you feel. I am sure if you were to ask most people who have gone through a similar situation they would tell you the same thing - total misunderstanding, didn't mean anything by it, etc. And a lot of them, probably most of them, would be being truthful. But that doesn't matter. If you have someone consistently acting out in a way that makes others uncomfortable, particularly sexually, you have to act. It's your responsibility as an employer.
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People shouldn't be expected to walk on eggshells because of one paranoid person's hangups about the human anatomy and using HR to make that happen is wholly inappropriate.

Falsely reporting every innocuous action that happens near one's genitalia as sexual harassment does matter as it hurts the credibility of serious claims. Creating a safe and receptive work environment doesn't involve sounding the alarms, pulling out the pitchforks, and going on a witch hunt every time someone's hands go near their genitalia. Context matters and sexual harassment claims need to be held to a much higher standard than something as subjective as one's comfort level.
 
cubicle47b said:
I'd avoid someone that reports something so innocent without it being a repeat offense.
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If she felt she had to report it, she didn't feel it was innocent. And if she didn't feel it was innocent, why should she wait for it to happen again?

Sorry to hear about this OP, but HR is doing the right thing, even though I fully believe you had no bad intentions.

This part aggravates me the most because you should be able to talk to the people who have a problem with you. A neutral third party may be needed to monitor that meeting but that's what HR should be for, conflict resolution.
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It might seem unfair, but no. If someone feels threatened, having them talk it out, even with a 3rd party would just make them feel like they are on trial, and would lead to even less people reporting harassment.
 
To be serious, I do this all the time as I leave the restroom. I am very conscious of stuff like this. But I do not grab my package or anything, just flick my finger to the top of the zipper to make sure its zipped. Now I wont do this anymore.
 
Puppet Shadow said:
If she felt she had to report it, she didn't feel it was innocent. And if she didn't feel it was innocent, why should she wait for it to happen again?
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I'd wait to verify it wasn't innocent instead of assuming it wasn't because that's not the type of work environment I'd want to create. Obviously, if there's a chance of being harmed, that changes things, but that's not the case here.
 
Fast forward so not sure if it's been answered: can't you appeal?

Ask your supervisor since if the claim false and can have negative consequences, you sod be able to appeal. And document all correspondence. If nothing is documented, you'll have a tougher time responding.

Documenting can just be you listing what happened, what was said, your side of the story, them acknowledging your side and the consequences. Email is good.

It may be nothing but you'll want a paper/digital trail if anything goes sour. And documentation probably helps people straighten up.
 
Wormdundee said:
I honestly had hopes that the neogaf community would be less toxic than it is showing itself to be in this thread. We have literally zero information on what this woman did in her reporting, and yet look at all the crazy conclusions people are jumping to.

Some men all excited that they get to throw out their favorite words 'bitch' and 'cunt'. Plus a little advocation of violence and sexual harrassment as retaliation. I mean, I get that some of it is a little jokey and whatever, but do any of you guys realize that this is why women are afraid to reveal themselves? Afraid to speak their minds about anything?

Women have legitimate reasons to be afraid of men, you don't know anything about this woman's life and yet some misogynist piece of crap feels free to put out something like "she's playing the woman card". Unbelievable.

Not to mention that any time someone tries to be serious about these issues you'll have some immature responses that dismiss you out of hand as a 'white knight', pussy, whatever. It's like some of you guys just can't wait until there's an opportunity for you to bring out the sexist insults. It seems some people are incapable of seeing a situation from another perspective.

I have to say, big compliments to the OP for how he's handling this. It's an unfortunate misunderstanding which has been exacerbated by stringent policies that have to be followed. I feel like in an ideal system there would be opportunity to defend yourself, but it's not ideal, it's setup to protect a vulnerable class of people and so there are going to be abuses and misuses of the system.

This isn't a fault of anybody in this situation, it's a societal fault that has required this system to be in place because of the actions of some men, and it's impossible to determine which men are which before they act.

And please, if you're thinking of something involving NOT ALL MEN, or BUT WOMEN TOO, just stop right there.
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Fiction said:
In this thread, we see the answer to the common question people often ask around here: "Why didn't she just report it?"

Grimes, you handled the situation well. Well done.

Everyone screaming for retaliation, calling her a bitch, and threatening violence....you are the reason only 15% of such things are actually reported. Good job.

. That last good job was sarcastic of course.
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THIS. Holy hell. I'm so glad the moderators here crack down hard on this sort of thing. And kudos to the OP as well for being calm and handling the situation well.
 
Shao Kahn on the Lawn said:
People shouldn't be expected to walk on eggshells because of one paranoid person's hangups about the human anatomy and using HR to make that happen is wholly inappropriate.

Falsely reporting every innocuous action that happens near one's genitalia as sexual harassment does matter as it hurts the credibility of serious claims. Creating a safe and receptive work environment doesn't involve sounding the alarms, pulling out the pitchforks, and going on a witch hunt every time someone's hands go near their genitalia. Context matters and sexual harassment claims need to be held to a much higher standard than something as subjective as one's comfort level.
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Context does matter. In this case, these two disagree on the context. Unfortunately, whether you feel your actions are misconstrued or not, they are still your actions and as a functioning member of society you have to own that.

There's a reason why it isn't "oh man, person x said this happened and now they're uncomfortable around person y, we should fire them," and instead it's "well, it's kind of silly, but we'll denote that we spoke about it and file it away." There are a variety of responses for a variety of situations. "Do nothing" though isn't an acceptable response for an employer, period.

skinnyrattler said:
Fast forward so not sure if it's been answered: can't you appeal?

Ask your supervisor since if the claim false and can have negative consequences, you sod be able to appeal. And document all correspondence. If nothing is documented, you'll have a tougher time responding.

Documenting can just be you listing what happened, what was said, your side of the story, them acknowledging your side and the consequences. Email is good.

It may be nothing but you'll want a paper/digital trail if anything goes sour. And documentation probably helps people straighten up.
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It's not false. He admits the events happened. Someone taking something in an unintended fashion doesn't mean it didn't happen.
 
bigmf said:
The only correct answer for dealing with it now is total avoidance of the person. Like cross the street and walk on the opposite sidewalk and never make eye contact. Look away and up.
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I worked at a company were a guy got fired for doing this very thing, he asked one of the safety girls out on a date. She reported him for sexual misconduct, so after his "2 week vacation" he completely avoided, ignored, left the room when she entered and so forth. Less than a month later they fired him because they said he was socially isolating her and that was considered harassment.

Thats something to consider as well OP, if she really pushes it there is nothing you can do and you could be discharged as being an "administration burden"
 
APF said:
We also have to defecate, but at least where I work we go to a private area in the office to do this. To the best of my knowledge, public breastfeeding advocates are more concerned with public areas than private businesses that are not open to the public, so long as the latter makes accommodations for mothers.
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Well that smells and is a proven health hazard which has to be disposed of properly. Adjusting clothing isn't. Or feeding a baby.
 
daegan said:
Context does matter. In this case, these two disagree on the context. Unfortunately, whether you feel your actions are misconstrued or not, they are still your actions and as a functioning member of society you have to own that.

There's a reason why it isn't "oh man, person x said this happened and now they're uncomfortable around person y, we should fire them," and instead it's "well, it's kind of silly, but we'll denote that we spoke about it and file it away." There are a variety of responses for a variety of situations. "Do nothing" though isn't an acceptable response for an employer, period.
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Part of being a "functioning member of society" is acknowledging and accepting that every little thing that makes you uncomfortable isn't grounds for reprimand. Again, one's "comfort" is far too subjective a thing to act on in every single instance. I'm not discouraging the "ownership" of one's actions: I'm questioning the logic of allowing the most paranoid among us create a horrifically uncomfortable work environment for everyone else. What happened in this instance was at worst a faux pas.

This is especially true when two informal counselings can be treated as a formal counseling and placed on a person's work record as is the case here. TrueGrime shouldn't get a formal reprimand on his record next time he scratches his ass in the breakroom and someone happens by at the moment.
 
We all know you did nothing wrong. I'd have a little animosity.

Do us a favor and when she smiles look away and don't even interact with her. I'd be pretty livid as it can strain your hard work on the career path you've chosen.

Take pleasure in ignoring her. Don't feel like you have to walk on egg shells. You did nothing wrong but of course, I guess this means you will have to try and not do that while visible to others since some are sensitive about stupid things.
 
captmorgan said:
I worked at a company were a guy got fired for doing this very thing, he asked one of the safety girls out on a date. She reported him for sexual misconduct, so after his "2 week vacation" he completely avoided, ignored, left the room when she entered and so forth. Less than a month later they fired him because they said he was socially isolating her and that was considered harassment.
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Wow. This is really fucked up. If you accuse someone of something then you have no right to expect conversation from that person. The accused has no obligation to speak up to you because if he does, the accuser will often use that as an ammo to accuse him further.

The guy in your story got fucked royally imo.
 
daegan said:
Context does matter. In this case, these two disagree on the context. Unfortunately, whether you feel your actions are misconstrued or not, they are still your actions and as a functioning member of society you have to own that.

There's a reason why it isn't "oh man, person x said this happened and now they're uncomfortable around person y, we should fire them," and instead it's "well, it's kind of silly, but we'll denote that we spoke about it and file it away." There are a variety of responses for a variety of situations. "Do nothing" though isn't an acceptable response for an employer, period.
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I think pretty much everyone in this thread feels your views, while well intentioned, are far too extreme and zero tolerance. Reality is that misunderstandings happen and not everyone can be perfect all the time. Even you yourself no matter how hard you try may fall into a similar situation as the OP if you work long enough. It only takes one moment of poor circumstance.
 
If anything this is a reminder that your co-workers are not your friends, and you can't expect them to stand by you or give you the benefit of the doubt. People are willing to turnon you based off of office gossip or rumor at the drop of a hat.

Just stay away from her OP and hopefully you outlast her or you leave to a better place.
 
I once nearly got written up for hugging a coworker. Wait. It gets worse. It wasn't by the person I was hugging. It was by someone who saw "the incident"

I worked with this lovely lady named Rita. Who worked remotely and I only saw her about once every half year. So she came to my office and shouted "Ronito!!" And gave me a huge hug. Meanwhile a lady coworker saw us and said, "You should be careful that you don't get written up for sexual harassment!"

I was too confused to say anything and Rita said, "We're not harassing each other, we're friends and we're hugging."

To which the coworker replied, "Sexual harassment isn't just about how you feel. You're harassing me by making me feel uncomfortable."

I was too gobsmacked to say anything. Rita just said, "If a hug with friends makes you uncomfortable then you can just look away."

Luckily it ended there but man, I couldn't understand it, and frankly it's made me afraid to be friendly with people at work.
 
This is why you should just check your fly plainly (Of course doing it in the restroom or in private is the preferred option.) Any weird methods or motions used to obscure it just increase the odds of it being misinterpreted.
 
I work in a factory so the rules around here arent as strict but there is no sexual harassment going on either, obviously, but I cant really relate on that note. Now I can relate on checking the fly thing because the other day after work, I went to take a piss and forgot to zipper up.

Anyways I had a eye doctor's appointment right after. I went there to fill paperwork and while sitting down, I realize that my zipper is open. "FUCK!" I said in my head. There were tons of people there. So I had to use my ninja skills to close it up quick while having paperwork infront of my lap to hide what I did. Shit was embarrassing. I cant even fathom what some lady would of thought I was doing, if she saw me do that. Scary as like OP, they could say some lie to get me in trouble.
 
ronito said:
I once nearly got written up for hugging a coworker. Wait. It gets worse. It wasn't by the person I was hugging. It was by someone who saw "the incident"

I worked with this lovely lady named Rita. Who worked remotely and I only saw her about once every half year. So she came to my office and shouted "Ronito!!" And gave me a huge hug. Meanwhile a lady coworker saw us and said, "You should be careful that you don't get written up for sexual harassment!"

I was too confused to say anything and Rita said, "We're not harassing each other, we're friends and we're hugging."

To which the coworker replied, "Sexual harassment isn't just about how you feel. You're harassing me by making me feel uncomfortable."

I was too gobsmacked to say anything. Rita just said, "If a hug with friends makes you uncomfortable then you can just look away."

Luckily it ended there but man, I couldn't understand it, and frankly it's made me afraid to be friendly with people at work.
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Holy shit, WHAT!?
 
Puppet Shadow said:
If she felt she had to report it, she didn't feel it was innocent. And if she didn't feel it was innocent, why should she wait for it to happen again?

Sorry to hear about this OP, but HR is doing the right thing, even though I fully believe you had no bad intentions.

It might seem unfair, but no. If someone feels threatened, having them talk it out, even with a 3rd party would just make them feel like they are on trial, and would lead to even less people reporting harassment.
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I hate to say it, but if this is the kind of thing that is getting reported as harassment then maybe less reporting of harassment would be a good thing.
 
captmorgan said:
I worked at a company were a guy got fired for doing this very thing, he asked one of the safety girls out on a date. She reported him for sexual misconduct, so after his "2 week vacation" he completely avoided, ignored, left the room when she entered and so forth. Less than a month later they fired him because they said he was socially isolating her and that was considered harassment.

Thats something to consider as well OP, if she really pushes it there is nothing you can do and you could be discharged as being an "administration burden"
Click to expand...

That guy was railroaded. I can't imagine why someone would want to socialize with their harasser, but then what do I know.
 
Shao Kahn on the Lawn said:
Part of being a "functioning member of society" is acknowledging and accepting that every little thing that makes you uncomfortable isn't grounds for reprimand. Again, one's "comfort" is far too subjective a thing to act on in every single instance. I'm not discouraging the "ownership" of one's actions: I'm questioning the logic of allowing the most paranoid among us create a horrifically uncomfortable work environment for everyone else. What happened in this instance was at worst a faux pas.

This is especially true when two informal counselings can be treated as a formal counseling and placed on a person's work record as is the case here. TrueGrime shouldn't get a formal reprimand on his record next time he scratches his ass in the breakroom and someone happens by at the moment.
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So much this. "Trigger warning" culture spreads this idea that you shouldn't ever be uncomfortable ever.
 
Can't speak for every branch, but I will say(as a 10 year US Navy SB1(SWCC/EXW), counseling chits mean jack and shit. Unless you go all the way up and get a page 7.
 
Darknight said:
Holy shit, WHAT!?
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This is part of standard a sexual harassment training. While a lot of it is needed... for instance, someone overhearing an inappropriate joke, even if not directed at them. It also opens the door to the stuff in the quote.

Guy is lucky the other worker dropped it there.
 
GoldenEye 007 said:
This is part of standard a sexual harassment training. While a lot of it is needed... for instance, someone overhearing an inappropriate joke, even if not directed at them. It also opens the door to the stuff in the quote.

Guy is lucky the other worker dropped it there.
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Its still just hugging. Isnt that a normal thing? I mean would people feel uncomfortable when I stretch myself?
 
Sounds like a shitty situation. It's easy to blame her, but she could've easily just told a co-worker, who secretly hates you, and that co-worker reported you.
 
GoldenEye 007 said:
This is part of standard a sexual harassment training. While a lot of it is needed... for instance, someone overhearing an inappropriate joke, even if not directed at them. It also opens the door to the stuff in the quote.

Guy is lucky the other worker dropped it there.
Click to expand...

I understand dirty jokes or sexual undertones. But hugging?
I mean it would seem then that lines are arbitrary.
Again I could understand if the person being hugged was like "Man, that's not ok" I get that totally. But saying "ew, they're hugging!" that's not going to be sustainable.

And yeah I get that it's not normal but at the same time it's not a normal thing, but then again it's someone that I hadn't seen for nearly a year. I don't think it's beyond the range of possibility.
 
ronito said:
I once nearly got written up for hugging a coworker. Wait. It gets worse. It wasn't by the person I was hugging. It was by someone who saw "the incident"

I worked with this lovely lady named Rita. Who worked remotely and I only saw her about once every half year. So she came to my office and shouted "Ronito!!" And gave me a huge hug. Meanwhile a lady coworker saw us and said, "You should be careful that you don't get written up for sexual harassment!"

I was too confused to say anything and Rita said, "We're not harassing each other, we're friends and we're hugging."

To which the coworker replied, "Sexual harassment isn't just about how you feel. You're harassing me by making me feel uncomfortable."

I was too gobsmacked to say anything. Rita just said, "If a hug with friends makes you uncomfortable then you can just look away."

Luckily it ended there but man, I couldn't understand it, and frankly it's made me afraid to be friendly with people at work.
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This is just too much. My female coworkers often hug me when we haven't seen each other. Thankfully I'm gay, so hopefully there wouldn't be any weird misunderstanding by other people. But it's fucked up how it can be interpreted as sexual harassment by someone else who's not even part of the activity in question.

I think this will also lead people to become more and more cold and secluded. They'd be less likely to initiate conversation or gestures because they are afraid it may be construed as something bad/will be badly reacted to.
 
Speaking of hugging, I've gotten notice from my manager at RETAIL to not hug people. I was balking at this but agreed to not hug her at all. Yes, not to THAT manager that mentioned it. I still hug other people anyway.

A year later or so, I was leaving my job for good and I hugged someone in front of that manager and I can tell she was upset because I didn't hug her. I reminded her of that warning because I don't forget shit like that.
 
Can't the OP claim for the "reasonable person standard" rule?

This rule is to protect yourself from hypersensitive individuals and would probably fit what the OP just described.
 
Zoe said:
People loooooove to hug in education.
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OMG! I thought I was the only one that thought that was weird. This lady that hugged me at work I talked to nearly every day and we were very close. But I went to an education client after being off at a different client for 3 months and 3 different people hugged me.
 
ronito said:
OMG! I thought I was the only one that thought that was weird. This lady that hugged me at work I talked to nearly every day and we were very close. But I went to an education client after being off at a different client for 3 months and 3 different people hugged me.
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I think being a female-dominated field makes a lot of behaviors come to surface that would never fly in other office settings (or at least the tech environments I've been in).
 
ronito said:
I understand dirty jokes or sexual undertones. But hugging?
I mean it would seem then that lines are arbitrary.
Again I could understand if the person being hugged was like "Man, that's not ok" I get that totally. But saying "ew, they're hugging!" that's not going to be sustainable.

And yeah I get that it's not normal but at the same time it's not a normal thing, but then again it's someone that I hadn't seen for nearly a year. I don't think it's beyond the range of possibility.
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Well, lets say you just went through a painful divorce. Your husband left you as he claimed he was tired of your emotional coldness. Your never hugged or kissed growing up, you just simply didn't have that kind of friends or family. So being demonstrative, or seeing even complete strangers others acting affectionately reminds you of your issues and makes you feel depressed.

So now you're at work, just trying to do your job while trying to keep your shit together, when your supervisor comes up to you and informs you that you now have to walk your security detail in the arrivals terminal at the airport where you work. Triggers ahoy.

This scenario might sound ridiculously far fetched, but I think we'll here more stories like this in the future.


Edit: Even more kinda off topic:

I had an employee years ago that I had to let go, because he fainted at the site of blood (while investigating I learned it wasn't the first time). He was the first aid attendant. And yes, HR paid a me a visit to make sure I had enough documentation as the guy was threatening 'wrongful dismissal'.
 
Hugging? Hm. That might be an easy harassment fight to win unless your work has some policy.

Believe it or not, the military has rules that prohibit public displays of affection. This one pertains to the army but I know the Marine Corps "loosely" enforces it. I say loosely because I have not personally seen someone get in trouble over it, however the rules can still be enforced.

A. LONG-STANDING CUSTOMS OF THE SERVICE PROHIBIT PUBLIC DISPLAYS
OF AFFECTION BY SOLDIERS WHEN IN UNIFORM OR WHILE IN CIVILIAN
CLOTHES ON DUTY. SOLDIERS MUST PROJECT AN IMAGE THAT LEAVES NO
DOUBT THAT THEY LIVE BY A COMMON MILITARY STANDARD AND ARE
RESPONSIBLE TO MILITARY ORDER AND DISCIPLINE.
 
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