Support NeoGAF

[chaosblade]

The HD5850 was discovered for £45 in an ex-display store. The plan is/was to get a CPU/mobo that could take advantage of the power of the card, but without needlessly spending too much on going higher, unless that will save money in the long run from only having to upgrade the GPU/CrossFire and not both. And the plan would be to sell the replaced parts of course.

With a view to run it for about 2 years, and then do a significant upgrade, would it be best to go i3-2120 now and then upgrade both CPU and graphics, or go strong on CPU now (costing £75 extra) and only upgrade graphics later. Staying with i3-2120 would leave it open for an Ivy Bridge upgrade in the future.

Bear in mind that I'm building this for a friend who is running on an Athlon 3700 and an X1800 or something, don't remember. So the cheaper option would still be a colossal upgrade.

Great deal on that 5850 then, go for it.

And on the CPU front, well, I guess that's pretty much up to you and your friend. The 2120 will be a huge upgrade from that old CPU, but as a dual core it's also not a very forward-compatible buy.

If budget is an issue now, you may as well go for the 2120, but you'll save money in the long run and not miss out on much performance by getting Sandy Bridge now. If OCing is involved, a 2500k is anticipated to last at least 4 years or so before it starts bottlenecking. Given that he's still using that clunker from 2005-2006, he doesn't seem to be much of an upgrader, so the better CPU might be a better option for that reason.

Also depends on what games he plays. For big, intensive games a better CPU is going to be an improvement right off the bat. If he mostly plays smaller or less intensive stuff it wouldn't hurt to upgrade down the line.

Also keep in mind CPU prices don't usually drop too much, even after they've been replaced. High end Ivy Bridge CPUs will probably cost as much 2 years from now as they will at launch, if not a bit more.

 

[HenryHSH]

First of all, why a 2600k? For gaming and normal use the hyperthreading won't make a difference, so you should go with the cheaper 2500k. If you know you need it for something it's fine though.

Waiting for Ivy Bridge is a toss up. If you don't need to build right now it can't hurt, should be a bit more powerful clock for clock and will have lower power consumption. Overall, you won't see much difference though, so if you want to build right now you probably won't be disappointed you didn't wait.

My current PC is an '07 build. I'm using an Athlon 64 x2 5600+ an 5770 (upgraded from a 8800GTS a while back) and 2 GB of ram. I want my new build to last as many years without my CPU bottlenecking my PC's performance.

I'm willing to spend that extra $100 for more cache and the possibility of games taking advantage of hyper-threading in the future. But I'm not sure if they ever will... I'm tempted to put that $100 towards a graphics card...

IMO, 2500/2600k cpus will last you a very long time if you're only going to use them for gaming (especially when overclocked). I was in the same position, used to have an e8400 and wanted to get an i7 then SB came. I was thinking of waiting for Ivy but figured what the heck, I got tired of the waiting game and purchased a 2500k. OC'ed it to 4.5 and never looked back. Such a monumental improvement over my old core2 and I don't see anything in the near future giving it a rough time.

I'm tired of waiting ever since I got all these new games from the steam sale. I'm ready to move on from my '07 build.

 

[Celcius]

Well, after almost 10 years with the same crappy PC, I've finally got a chance to build myself a new one. I'm planning on using it mainly for heavy gaming. Here's my list of parts so far in my NewEgg cart. Any advice is hugely appreciated.

Monitor - ASUS VW246H Glossy Black 24" 2ms(GTG) HDMI Widescreen LCD Monitor
Item #: N82E16824236049

Video Card - EVGA 03G-P3-1584-AR GeForce GTX 580 (Fermi) 3GB 384-bit GDDR5 PCI Express 2.0 x16
Item #: N82E16814130655

The two things I'm still really iffy about are the motherboard and the case, but I'll take advice on everything.

I wouldn't recommend paying extra for 3GB on the gtx 580 if you plan to use a 24" monitor. Save yourself some cash by getting the 1.5gb version instead and you won't even notice the difference.
Also, have you considered the Radeon 7970?

 

[chaosblade]

My current PC is an '07 build. I'm using an Athlon 64 x2 5600+ an 5770 (upgraded from a 8800GTS a while back) and 2 GB of ram. I want my new build to last as many years without my CPU bottlenecking my PC's performance.

I'm willing to spend that extra $100 for more cache and the possibility of games taking advantage of hyper-threading in the future. But I'm not sure if they ever will... I'm tempted to put that $100 towards a graphics card...



I'm tired of waiting ever since I got all these new games from the steam sale. I'm ready to move on from my '07 build.

You won't see $100 worth of benefit with that CPU in gaming and normal use, stick with the 2500k.

And if you're ready to build, go for it. Here's an Anandtech write up on Ivy Bridge describing some of the changes, and they estimate about a 5% performance increase clock for clock. That's a pretty small bump, and the vast majority of games are GPU limited anyway.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4830/intels-ivy-bridge-architecture-exposed

(Basically, "tocks" are where you see the performance increases, and "ticks" are where you see improvements elsewhere like power consumption, and in this case the integrated graphics)

 

[mkenyon]

Thanks.

Only thing I don't like is the 120hz, Vsync would then have to sync up to 120 frames? That would seriously fuck up my smooth gaming.

The reason why you get tears above 60FPS is *because* the monitors are only 60hz. The whole point of the 120hz is you don't have to enable vysnc to get smooth looking frames or get the terrible input lag because of it.

120hz is the solution to all of this.

 

[aktham]

The reason why you get tears above 60FPS is *because* the monitors are only 60hz. The whole point of the 120hz is you don't have to enable vysnc to get smooth looking frames or get the terrible input lag because of it.

120hz is the solution to all of this.

Unless you're getting more than 120 fps, then you'll have the tearing again. Is this correct?

 

[scogoth]

Unless you're getting more than 120 fps, then you'll have the tearing again. Is this correct?

No, the frames are drawn so quickly that your eye can barely distinguish screen tearing. The human eye can see about 72hz (its much more complicated but as a rough estimate) so on 120Hz displays it should make the picture a fluid motion regardless of visual artifacts. As an added benefit of not having to turn on vsync is lower input lag as the frame buffer does not need to wait for the screen to draw the frame before it can update.

Also if your getting 120+fps turn your settings up!

I personally play on 120hz monitor at 110-120fps and most visual artifacts are impossible to see. When it drops to 60fps the screen tearing is glaringly obvious.

 

[mkenyon]

I can't say for certain, but that does seem probable.

*edit* beaten with better info.

Though, 120+ FPS is important in competitive gaming. I turn down settings as much as possible to get in that range generally.

 

[scogoth]

mkenyon and n0n44m, watercooling questions:

I'm a sucker and bought the gold plated swiftech apogee HD and I am planning to get full water blocks for 2x gtx680s when they come out. For rads thinking 120x120x35mm and 140x280x60mm. I've heard good things about the MCP 655 pump but will defer to you guys so,

1) Is combined res/pump good or stick with dedicated parts?
2) If dedicated, whats the best pump for single loop configuration?
2) What the deal with the swiftech micro res vs a full res?

 

[Camwi]

I'd get the ASUS Z68 board and a 7970 if you don't mind AMD.

Anything more specific when it comes to the Z68? There are a couple listed on NewEgg and I have to admit that motherboards are what I know the least about. Is this a better one to get or is there a cheaper alternative that's just as good?

Do not get a GTX 580 when the 7970 just came out. 7970 blows it away.

I'm looking into the 7970 right now. It's a shame that it's out of stock.

Check OP for case recommendations. Check here, and here, for additional HSF options. Check here for SATA III SSD options. May want to hold off on the 580. Take a look at the 7970, and upcoming 7950. Well have reliable word on the next Nvidias soon enough.

I think I'm too impatient to wait for more word on the 520 SSDs.

As far as cases go, I'm now debating on the HAF X and the HAF 932. Is the extra $40 worth it?

I wouldn't recommend paying extra for 3GB on the gtx 580 if you plan to use a 24" monitor. Save yourself some cash by getting the 1.5gb version instead and you won't even notice the difference.
Also, have you considered the Radeon 7970?

I'm looking into the 7970. When it comes to the 580, why do you say the extra 1.5 GB won't make a difference due to the monitor? Is it because of the size of the monitor, or does the extra RAM just not give a noticeable performance boost?

 

[mkenyon]

mkenyon and n0n44m, watercooling questions:

I'm a sucker and bought the gold plated swiftech apogee HD and I am planning to get full water blocks for 2x gtx680s when they come out. For rads thinking 120x120mm and 140x280mm. I've heard good things about the MCP 655 pump but will defer to you guys so,

1) Is combined res/pump good or stick with dedicated parts?
2) If dedicated, whats the best pump for single loop configuration?
2) What the deal with the swiftech micro res vs a full res?

That's not enough radiator if you want to OC at all. I'd be looking at a 360 + 240 minimum.

For reference, a friend was running a single 6970 and a lightly volted 2600K on a single XSPC RX240 (crazy thick radiator), and was getting load temps in the 60s. Added a second, and temps dropped to 49 load. Went from basically being unable to get 5.0Ghz to running 5.0 + 1.43V 24/7 at 59C load.

1. With GPU block designs becoming what they are now, if you get low restriction ones, you will be fine with a middling pump. If you are looking at combos, I really feel like Bay Res/Pump combos are the ultimate choice. It keeps the inside of the case SO much cleaner since that space is going to be wasted anyway. Monsoon/Danger Den Res's are the best, no question. XSPC is second.

2. D5 is really freaking great. When dealing with WC parts, I personally like the idea of planning for much more than is necessary, to increase options later on.

3. It's smaller to fit in smaller cases.

 

[scogoth]

That's not enough radiator if you want to OC at all. I'd be looking at a 360 + 240 minimum.

For reference, a friend was running a single 6970 and a lightly volted 2600K on a single XSPC RX240 (crazy thick radiator), and was getting load temps in the 60s. Added a second, and temps dropped to 49 load. Went from basically being unable to get 5.0Ghz to running 5.0 + 1.43V 24/7 at 59C load.

1. With GPU block designs becoming what they are now, if you get low restriction ones, you will be fine with a middling pump. If you are looking at combos, I really feel like Bay Res/Pump combos are the ultimate choice. It keeps the inside of the case SO much cleaner since that space is going to be wasted anyway. Monsoon/Danger Den Res's are the best, no question. XSPC is second.

2. D5 is really freaking great. When dealing with WC parts, I personally like the idea of planning for much more than is necessary, to increase options later on.

3. It's smaller to fit in smaller cases.

Bay res/pump combo it is. Rads I will have to look at as well as new cases. I'm going to set up just a CPU loop on my i7-930 until I do a full upgarde later this year so will a 120x120x60 be enough for now? running it at 3.5Ghz at 1.3v and with a NH-D14 its ~58C.

 

[HenryHSH]

You won't see $100 worth of benefit with that CPU in gaming and normal use, stick with the 2500k.

And if you're ready to build, go for it. Here's an Anandtech write up on Ivy Bridge describing some of the changes, and they estimate about a 5% performance increase clock for clock. That's a pretty small bump, and the vast majority of games are GPU limited anyway.

http://www.anandtech.com/show/4830/intels-ivy-bridge-architecture-exposed

(Basically, "tocks" are where you see the performance increases, and "ticks" are where you see improvements elsewhere like power consumption, and in this case the integrated graphics)

Thanks for the advice!

I just ordered an Asus P8Z68-V/GEN3 (not the PRO version), i5-2500k, CM Hyper 212 CPU cooler, 16GB 1600 Corsair lo-profile RAM (would of gone for less but price difference is negligible) and an optical mouse since mine broke and I'm currently using a PS/2 mechanical mouse.

Waiting patiently on 7950...

 

[Celcius]

I'm looking into the 7970. When it comes to the 580, why do you say the extra 1.5 GB won't make a difference due to the monitor? Is it because of the size of the monitor, or does the extra RAM just not give a noticeable performance boost?

At 1080p, the extra vram simply wouldn't be used. However, since the 7970 already comes with it, it wouldn't hurt.

 

[·feist·]

Anything more specific when it comes to the Z68? There are a couple listed on NewEgg and I have to admit that motherboards are what I know the least about. Is this a better one to get or is there a cheaper alternative that's just as good?

Z68s have added features over equivalent P67s. OP has a few Z68 recommendations, including less expensive, but solid options. See if you'll benefit from any of the added features.

As far as cases go, I'm now debating on the HAF X and the HAF 932. Is the extra $40 worth it?

If it was a standard 932? Unquestionably. The Advanced makes it harder as it takes a few of the HAF X's features. Even still, unless you know for certain you won't be using any of the X's extra features, I'd have to say "yes." The HAF X comes with a GPU support bracket, better stock support for water cooling and motherboard types, hot swap HDD bays, edge in build quality, and others. See if you have the option to get some hands on time in store, or look at a few videos of each, to help decide.

 

[Aesthet1c]

Do they usually unveil new GPU's at CES? And if so, do you think that will drop the price of current cards? I'm looking at updating my 8800 GTS to either a GTX 460 or an HD 6850. However if the price is going to fall within a week or two, I'd be willing to wait.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

I'm plannin to replace my Phenom II X4 965 with something signifantly faster. Is the Ivy Bridge i5 3570K supposed to be the spirital successor of the i5 2500k? Wikipedia says it'll cost merely $225.

 

[mkenyon]

I'm plannin to replace my Phenom II X4 965 with something signifantly faster. Is the Ivy Bridge i5 3570K supposed to be the spirital successor of the i5 2500k? Wikipedia says it'll cost merely $225.

Yes.

Do they usually unveil new GPU's at CES? And if so, do you think that will drop the price of current cards? I'm looking at updating my 8800 GTS to either a GTX 460 or an HD 6850. However if the price is going to fall within a week or two, I'd be willing to wait.

No, and probably not.

 

[Imp the Dimp]

Yes.

Thank you, that's brilliant. Will definitely be waiting for the i5 3570K then. Release is said to be in April, isn't it? And if I understood correctly, IB will be comaptible with the 1155 socket of Sandy Bridge. So, can I buy a mainboard now and use it for IB later?

 

[mkenyon]

That is also correct. They're really making it easy this time around.

 

[Camwi]

Thanks for all the answers, guys. You've been a huge help.

 

[n0n44m]

Bay res/pump combo it is. Rads I will have to look at as well as new cases. I'm going to set up just a CPU loop on my i7-930 until I do a full upgarde later this year so will a 120x120x60 be enough for now? running it at 3.5Ghz at 1.3v and with a NH-D14 its ~58C.

only con for the bay res/pump combo is that it has more potential for noise due to vibrations as it is easier to transfer those to the chassis, but you'll only notice that when everything else is completely quiet. And yes it really frees up a lot of space, I like my (EK) dual bayres a lot

As for the pump I'd indeed go for a D5 if you want the bayres with integrated pump. There are some bayreservoirs pump combinations that allow you to install a D5 in them (like from Koolance, DD, XSPC), those seem like a good choice to me. The normal Laing pumps are a lot smaller and perform even better but I'm not that convinced about their reliability. I like my Aquastream pumps but they're pretty huge and cumbersome to plan your loop around

single 120 rad is OK for now but I doubt it will perform better than a NH-D14 ... I'd guess you're looking at roughly 4 * 140 of radiators (or 5* 120 like mkenyon said) to adequately cool an SLI+cpu setup, more for overclocking or low fanspeeds

GPUs put out a lot of heat ... saw EK was already getting 32c water with a triple 120 rad + 2200 rpm fans cooling just a single overclocked 7970 ... You don't want your water going more than 10c over ambient IMHO

 

[BoobPhysics101]

Looks like I'm getting a free upgrade from my 1.28 GB GTX 570 to a 2.56 GB GTX 570. Sweeeeet.

 

[Celcius]

^^Video card got upgraded during an RMA?

 

[BoobPhysics101]

^^Video card got upgraded during an RMA?

No. I'm picking up a lot of GTX 570 2.5 GB's, keeping one for myself, selling the other two to a friend, and then selling my 1.28 GB GTX 570. Free upgrade!

Also hoping that the 2.5 GB GTX 570's overclock even better than the 1.28 Gb ones. Wouldn't mind hitting 950 Mhz core + 2200 Mhz RAM OC's.

 

[Yoshichan]

Okay what's going on now? I'm playing SC2 and it says that I have 240fps but it's actually stuttering like a whore. It's never actually "stopping" but it feels like 30fps.

Anyone?

 

[BoobPhysics101]

Okay what's going on now? I'm playing SC2 and it says that I have 240fps but it's actually stuttering like a whore. It's never actually "stopping" but it feels like 30fps.

Anyone?

Try Vsync + Triple buffering.

On Crysis Warhead or Crysis 2, if I have 50-60 FPS but no vsync enabled, it feels super stuttery and unsmooth for example. If I turn on Vsync + triple buffering, FPS stays the same but it becomes buttery-smooth. It's very odd, and I've never encountered it in any other game. SC2 might have the same problem.

But I highly doubt you're getting 240 FPS unless you're running on the absolute lowest settings.

 

[Yoshichan]

But I highly doubt you're getting 240 FPS unless you're running on the absolute lowest settings.

It's SC2... of course I'm playing on the lowest settings.

Will try out the triple buffering thing!

edit: not even finding the option for enabling triple buffer ._.

edit 2: yeah same problem :/

 

[scogoth]

only con for the bay res/pump combo is that it has more potential for noise due to vibrations as it is ........... 32c water with a triple 120 rad + 2200 rpm fans cooling just a single overclocked 7970 ... You don't want your water going more than 10c over ambient IMHO

Tthanks for your thoughts. This could get interesting, I want to keep rads internal. I have a bitfenix colossus and theoretically could fit 140x140 + 140x140 + 140 x 280 but that would complicate tubing a lot.

 

[n0n44m]

Tthanks for your thoughts. This could get interesting, I want to keep rads internal. I have a bitfenix colossus and theoretically could fit 140x140 + 140x140 + 140 x 280 but that would complicate tubing a lot.

eh forgot to mention that was running Furmark but still if you really plan on doing SLI + SB-E ...

 

[mkenyon]

Tthanks for your thoughts. This could get interesting, I want to keep rads internal. I have a bitfenix colossus and theoretically could fit 140x140 + 140x140 + 140 x 280 but that would complicate tubing a lot.

Bitfenix cases really lack WC support. Need a new case. Arc Midi can do 360 + 240.

 

[Deadly]

^^Video card got upgraded during an RMA?

Does this actually happen? I RMA'd my card a few days ago but it passed my mind that the card is sorta out of production now.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

Does this actually happen? I RMA'd my card a few days ago but it passed my mind that the card is sorta out of production now.

Yep, sure does! I have seen people RMA their GTX 480's and get GTX 580's back.

Some people when they RMA older cards, get a newer one if they don't have any of the older ones left.

 

[Iadien]

Does this actually happen? I RMA'd my card a few days ago but it passed my mind that the card is sorta out of production now.

Happened to me with EVGA. I sent an 8800 GTX and received a 260 GTX.

 

[Theonik]

Does this actually happen? I RMA'd my card a few days ago but it passed my mind that the card is sorta out of production now.

They have to replace your card with a card of equal or superior specs. (they should state it on their warranty) Thus many times if the card is out of stock there is a chance you'll get a newer card in return.

 

[mkenyon]

I couldn't hold back. 7970 bought, will be here in 2 days. Now, hoping EK releases their block soon.

 

[Yoshichan]

Solved the problem, thanks Hazaro and BoobPhysics101 !

Let's see how long it takes for me to find something else that fucks me over :lol

 

[Branson]

So the 580 isnt a good purchase anymore? I thought it was still very powerful for a card. I'd rather not go for AMD if I have to.

 

[Hazaro]

So the 580 isnt a good purchase anymore? I thought it was still very powerful for a card. I'd rather not go for AMD if I have to.

It's still a beast of a card, but the 7970 is a much better value and faster.
nVidia new top end should be out in 2-6 months. Who knows!

 

[BoobPhysics101]

So the 580 isnt a good purchase anymore? I thought it was still very powerful for a card. I'd rather not go for AMD if I have to.

580 is the worst card you could buy right now, in terms of price/performance ratio. 7970 absolutely demolishes it, and soon the 7950 will too - for less.

Not to mention the GTX 560 Ti 448 and GTX 570 going for much less than a 580 yet easily OC'ing to 580 performance. 580 is a horrible purchase for anything over $400 imo.

 

[mkenyon]

and soon the 7950 will too - for less.

Not to mention the GTX 560 Ti 448 and GTX 570 going for much less than a 580 yet easily OC'ing to 580 performance. 580 is a horrible purchase for anything over $400 imo.

I haven't seen any reviews yet, linky?

Also, the OC argument is always odd to me. If the 560ti and 570 can be OC'd to 580 stock levels, what about when you OC the 580?

 

[Branson]

580 is the worst card you could buy right now, in terms of price/performance ratio. 7970 absolutely demolishes it, and soon the 7950 will too - for less.

Not to mention the GTX 560 Ti 448 and GTX 570 going for much less than a 580 yet easily OC'ing to 580 performance. 580 is a horrible purchase for anything over $400 imo.

Well. Thats disappointing.

 

[Theonik]

I haven't seen any reviews yet, linky?

Also, the OC argument is always odd to me. If the 560ti and 570 can be OC'd to 580 stock levels, what about when you OC the 580?

580 is a much more power hungry part and runs much hotter so you get a smaller margin for improvement.
Not that it matters anyway. Overclocking doesn't give you extra cores, clock for clock 580 should be faster.
Edit: For most people the premium isn't really justifiable though vs the performance boost.

 

[Branson]

580 is a much more power hungry part and runs much hotter so you get a smaller margin for improvement.
Not that it matters anyway. Overclocking doesn't give you extra cores, clock for clock 580 should be faster.
Edit: For most people the premium isn't really justifiable though vs the performance boost.

So should I still go with a 580 if I already have saved up enough to go that route? Gah. This is frustrating lol.

 

[Hazaro]

So should I still go with a 580 if I already have saved up enough to go that route? Gah. This is frustrating lol.

If you can get one under $450.
Should be a good secondhand market at least, saw a 1.5GB go for $375.

 

[Branson]

If you can get one under $450.
Should be a good secondhand market at least, saw a 1.5GB go for $375.

I'd be ordering from newegg so I'd be getting it for 489 after rebate. Hmm. With a 580 my computer is about $1200 right now.

Well crap. I thought the 580 was still top of the line when it comes to Nvidia.

 

[BoobPhysics101]

I haven't seen any reviews yet, linky?

Also, the OC argument is always odd to me. If the 560ti and 570 can be OC'd to 580 stock levels, what about when you OC the 580?

Doesn't matter if you OC the 580 because it's $150-200 more, that's the point.

It's not impressive when a $450-550 card can be overclocked past its performance when $280-350 cards can be overclocked to that $450-550 level. But you know this.

I haven't seen any reviews yet, linky?

Also, the OC argument is always odd to me. If the 560ti and 570 can be OC'd to 580 stock levels, what about when you OC the 580?

Math. 7950 has 10% less SP's than the 7970, slightly lower clocks, etc. It should be around 15-20% slower than a 7970... which is still 5-15% faster than a 580. If MSRP is $400-500, and it comes with the 3 GB of VRAM standard, it'll cost less than a 580, have 2x as much VRAM, OC far better, and be faster stock.

I'd be ordering from newegg so I'd be getting it for 489 after rebate. Hmm. With a 580 my computer is about $1200 right now.

Well crap. I thought the 580 was still top of the line when it comes to Nvidia.

If you must spend $500+, buy a 7970.

 

[Branson]

Doesn't matter if you OC the 580 because it's $150-200 more, that's the point.

It's not impressive when a $450-550 card can be overclocked past its performance when $280-350 cards can be overclocked to that $450-550 level. But you know this.

Would I need additional cooling for these crazy overclocks?

Dear god the 7970s are like $550

 

[Hazaro]

I'd be ordering from newegg so I'd be getting it for 489 after rebate. Hmm. With a 580 my computer is about $1200 right now.

Well crap. I thought the 580 was still top of the line when it comes to Nvidia.

It is top, AMD reclaimed it first on a new process.
Someone mentioned Kepler 680 might be March, but then it would also cost like $599

 

[Deadly]

Yep, sure does! I have seen people RMA their GTX 480's and get GTX 580's back.

Some people when they RMA older cards, get a newer one if they don't have any of the older ones left.

Happened to me with EVGA. I sent an 8800 GTX and received a 260 GTX.

They have to replace your card with a card of equal or superior specs. (they should state it on their warranty) Thus many times if the card is out of stock there is a chance you'll get a newer card in return.

Damn wow. Sent in my 9800gtx+ to EVGA too, if I get a 260 I might actually be able to run BF3 in my native res! Hurray!