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"I need a New PC!" 2012 Thread. 22nm+28nm, Tri-Gate, and reading the OP. [Part 1]
- Thread starter Hazaro
- Start date
- Status
i need some quick help.
i want to buy a graphics card but i'm a total noob at pc stuff and i'm in a super tight budget and can only spend like $50. i don't plan to change pc anytime soon and the only thing i can upgrade is the graphics card since i'm running off the internal one that came with the pc and only have a single PCIe slot available.
i want to buy a graphics card but i'm a total noob at pc stuff and i'm in a super tight budget and can only spend like $50. i don't plan to change pc anytime soon and the only thing i can upgrade is the graphics card since i'm running off the internal one that came with the pc and only have a single PCIe slot available.
CambriaRising
Member
You may want to save up a bit. Any idea what kind of CPU you have?
Hi Guys,
I'm upgrading from a 5850 and found this card. Any input?
Also I have a PCI 2.0 slot and read that there's hardly any difference from running it with a PCI 3.0 mobo.
I'm upgrading from a 5850 and found this card. Any input?
Also I have a PCI 2.0 slot and read that there's hardly any difference from running it with a PCI 3.0 mobo.
Is there still a point to the GTX 560 Ti 448 Core? I started looking for a new video card yesterday, and as far as I can tell the GTX 570 is cheaper these days.
Celcius
°Temp. member
I don't plan on actually buying 2, I was just curious as to which case people would recommend. I guess if someone was buying two they probably would go with water cooling though.
Putting together a PC for my son using some of my old parts. I need a LGA 775 Motherboard that takes DDR2 memory. Newegg has a bunch of micro ATX but I'd rather just standard ATX. Honestly I guess I really don't care but I'd like to put a graphics card in there, which brings me to my next question.
I need a graphics card for this setup. Obviously nothing fancy. He'll mostly be playing indie platformers and flash games, but I just want something in there that's decent.
So I guess my real problem is finding something that will meet all of this criteria. Any help is appreciated.
edit: for the hell of it, here's the stuff I already have:
- Q9300 Core 2 Quad w/heatsink
- 4Gb RAM
- Power Supply
- (2) 250 Gb HDDs
I need a graphics card for this setup. Obviously nothing fancy. He'll mostly be playing indie platformers and flash games, but I just want something in there that's decent.
So I guess my real problem is finding something that will meet all of this criteria. Any help is appreciated.
edit: for the hell of it, here's the stuff I already have:
- Q9300 Core 2 Quad w/heatsink
- 4Gb RAM
- Power Supply
- (2) 250 Gb HDDs
It's actually mini-ITX. Immediately, swap 2500K for 3530K, PSU for a BP550 and a Bitfenix Prodigy for the Lian Li. It's an upgrade as far as cases are concerned and quite a bit less expensive. Drop the DVD drive unless there is some burning reason for it.
Made this with the help of the internet + true bro Xero, this. However it totals a little over $1K CDN and still missing windows + keyboard + mouse.
Anyone have suggestions for shaving some money off? Maybe around 1-200 dollars, though with me being in Canada and it being a Mini-ATX that's probably a little limiting.
When you get to that level of hardware, there are a number of choices that excel in different areas. You have everything from the Little Devil V8
to the Caselabs M8
a host of Danger Den cases
or even something simple like the Shinobi XL or Switch 810.
It's all about the total system at that point, as there are plenty of cases that provide more than enough airflow with the right fans for two 690s.
I'd actually pour over the Overclock.net and Hardforum marketplaces to find a used 775 motherboard. Should find some great deals there.
How cheap do you want to go on the videocard?
To have a significant difference, you'd probably want to look at something like the 670 or 7950.
Only worth it if you are going to overclock it and find out where it's limits are. If not, any 7970, 670, or 680 will do.
Thanks for the suggestions. Were you making these based on them being more suitable parts or was it for costs reasons? Asking because the case is noticeable as far as cost savings go, but the 2500K is only like $10 cheaper ($30 cheaper on amazon.ca vs. newegg, though) and the PSU only $5.
Regardless, thanks again.
GTX460 (non SE) will suit your needs well.
Otherwise, abandon the ITX idea.
Only places I could really see to trim right away. You could go with a cheaper videocard too.
Otherwise, abandon the ITX idea.
Maybe I'll look into a different videocard option then.
Any thoughts on using an Asus F1A75-I Deluxe motherboard versus that ASRock Z77E-ITX? That's also like -$30.
the CPU is an i3 according to the control panel.
That's for an entirely different processor, the AMD A series in specific.
That ASRock and the Asus Z77-I are the only options for ITX socket 1155 really.
G'day guys,
I'm about to buy a new tower for my old man. As such, it doesn't need to be much special - it'll get used for browsing eBay, carsales.com.au, bikesales.com.au (semi-flash websites), some basic word processing/emailing and that sort of thing. We've got peripherals and a monitor from the old PC he's using now, so don't need to go there again thankfully. /edit: and the case should be recyclable too. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it though!
I had a bit of a browse through the entry level PC recommended in the OP and ended up with this:
$381.00 worth, with a DVD drive to be added. The reason for an ssd instead of a 500gb hdd (which is $75, for comparison sake) is simply speed. Dad will never fill up any hdd, ever (and I've set the oldies up with a Tb networked drive for everything to access anyway), but he chucks a middle-aged man tantrum if made to wait for stupid shit (something I think we can all agree on!)
All I wanted to check was if this the way to go still, or are the AMD quad-core fusion's worth a look these days?
I'm about to buy a new tower for my old man. As such, it doesn't need to be much special - it'll get used for browsing eBay, carsales.com.au, bikesales.com.au (semi-flash websites), some basic word processing/emailing and that sort of thing. We've got peripherals and a monitor from the old PC he's using now, so don't need to go there again thankfully. /edit: and the case should be recyclable too. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it though!
I had a bit of a browse through the entry level PC recommended in the OP and ended up with this:
Code:
ASUS P8H61-M-LX-V3 Motherboard $59.00
OCZ Agility 3 120GB SSD $109.00
Antec Neo Eco 450C 450W Power Supply $59.00
Intel Core i3 2120 $125.00
G.Skill Ripjaws F3-10666CL8D-4GBRM (2x2GB) DDR3 $29.00$381.00 worth, with a DVD drive to be added. The reason for an ssd instead of a 500gb hdd (which is $75, for comparison sake) is simply speed. Dad will never fill up any hdd, ever (and I've set the oldies up with a Tb networked drive for everything to access anyway), but he chucks a middle-aged man tantrum if made to wait for stupid shit (something I think we can all agree on!)
All I wanted to check was if this the way to go still, or are the AMD quad-core fusion's worth a look these days?
Infinite Justice
Member
looks alright for your old man imo but get rid of that SSD since OCZ SSD's have a horrible reputation on here (its in the OP to avoid like the plague). Either go for the Crucial m4 or the Samsung 830 with the Crucial getting more of a nod since its the cheaper of the 2.
Link for the M4
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004W2JKZI/?tag=neogaf0e-20
As for the AMD's it sounds like they are still not worth it.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Looking for some good 1600 DDR3 RAM to go with my new Asus P8 Z68-V/GEN3 mobo.
I know I should stick to 16GB, but I so want to extend my penis to 32GB.
I know I should stick to 16GB, but I so want to extend my penis to 32GB.
specialguy
Banned
man as an aside i picked up the 128gb m4 for 115 a few weeks ago, thinking super deal. saw it for 89 shipped on a deals forum like yesterday lol.
256 gb's will be reasonable before too long. perhaps i should have waited.
then again with my current os drive-data drive setup, i think 128gb is good enough.
256 gb's will be reasonable before too long. perhaps i should have waited.
then again with my current os drive-data drive setup, i think 128gb is good enough.
Infinite Justice
Member
Saw it for 99.99 on Amazon day before yesterday iirc and i was like "holy shit i'm too broke to buy this"
.Too easy. I knew I'd read somewhere to avoid those OCZ SSD's, but was buggered if I could find it in my haste this morning! Good tip, thanks for the heads up. I swapped in one of the Samsung 830's, as they're slightly better bang for buck at my retail outlet of choice.
Cheers!
Canis lupus
Member
What about Kingston HyperX ones?
DeadRockstar
Member
Hi guys,
Just drawn up a list for a new 3770K build and the only thing giving me pause is the GPU. Is there any benefit to going 680 over 670? The money doesn't really bother me, but it seems like a good 670 you can OC makes the most sense. Would the 680 just be wasting money? My resolution is 2560x1440.
Also, is the Asus DCUII still a good card to get? I loved the last one I had.
Just drawn up a list for a new 3770K build and the only thing giving me pause is the GPU. Is there any benefit to going 680 over 670? The money doesn't really bother me, but it seems like a good 670 you can OC makes the most sense. Would the 680 just be wasting money? My resolution is 2560x1440.
Also, is the Asus DCUII still a good card to get? I loved the last one I had.
Intel 330 128GB SSD for £55 through an Amazon seller, amazing bargain.
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007P3RMLU/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/B007P3RMLU/
The difference between stock 670/680 is in the region of 5-10% at 1080p, it's not worth the extra 100£ odd, or however much in dollars. The ASUS GTX 670 TOP is faster than a 680 and like 70£ cheaper, here. There's a few benchmarks at 1600p (slightly different to your resolution, not much though) in this HardOCP review. At 1600p the difference is more in favour of the 680, but usually only around 10fps or less. It's up to you whether you think that the extra money is worth it (I would say it isn't, but that's my opinion). The ASUS cooler (on the 670 at least, i'm assuming it's the same on the 680) is silent even under load. Love it.
Weird. Have you tried going into the BIOS and completely disabling the onboard GPU? That would be the first thing to look at. Which card do you have? most cards these days have LEDs on them somewhere that flash or display a different colour from normal if there is a hardware issue. I don't think it is, at all, but never hurts to look. Try the BIOS thing first, though.
DeadRockstar
Member
Thanks for the reply. I think I agree that the difference isn't worth the price. Just need to wait for somewhere to have that Asus 670 card in stock here in the UK. A few places have the non-top version in stock, but I imagine Asus keep their best chips for the top versions.
ninjaurbano
Member
Thanks! If not for you to get my attention about the temperatures, I would be risking my CPU.
I bought a Coolermaster 212 EVO heatsink, and successfully stress tested my CPU using Prime95, at 4.6ghz with 1.28v, with temperatures in 70s (and below 80º). I hope this is fine for a computer that will be running 24/7 (but not always at full load, of course).
That'll be totally fine. IB runs a bit hotter than SB does, so you are perfect. There is no game that will come close to stressing your CPU like P95.
@guy building rig for dad (on phone sorry)
AMD A Series was made for this purpose. Check out a socket FM1 motherboard and an A6 processor.
@guy building rig for dad (on phone sorry)
AMD A Series was made for this purpose. Check out a socket FM1 motherboard and an A6 processor.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Are they good for the price?
Yep. I wouldn't generally suggest straying from Samsung 830 or Crucial M4, but Force GT, Chronos Deluxe, and Hyper X would be the other three I would buy if a good deal came up.
I have 6 Chronos Deluxe 60s in our office workstations, and 4 in our server in RAID10. Not a single hiccup in any of them for about 8 months now.
They are such a gamechanger, that I think SSDs could be one of those tools that help to open up terrifying vistas of reality, and our frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation or flee from the light into the peace and safety of a new dark age.
*edit*
New EVGA Z77 ITX being teased:
Shadowhaxor
Member
Like to get some input here. I've been running my Intel i5-750 @ 3.7Ghz for the past few years. Now while the system is pretty rock solid paired with 16GB of DDR3 and GTX680, I'm beginning to wonder if it's time to upgrade the CPU and Mobo, especially since it's the P55 chipset. Other then weaker than expected performance out of the SSD the combo handles everything that is thrown at it.
So looking over benchmarks the ther i5-750 doesn't seem to do to bad for a 2+ year old process since the price drops on the i5-3570 are looking to be to good to ignore. Only issue is I typically either pass my old hardware to my second gaming PC that my wife and kids use which is rocking a C2D overclocked to 3.2Ghz and AMD 6950 2GB. I would end up parting that PC and moving my existing hardware to that and then I guess trying to make some cash on that C2D which I really doubt I'd get much if anything at all.
That said do you think it's worth moving from the P55 to Ivy Bridge? I'm leaning toward no atm, but you never know.
Current Mobo: EVGA P55 FTW - http://www.evga.com/articles/00502/sli/
Current CPU: Intel i5-750 @ 3.7Ghz
Current GPU: EVGA GTX 680
Current PSU: Corsair 650W TX650
Current Memory: (2) GSkill Ripjaw X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB)
So looking over benchmarks the ther i5-750 doesn't seem to do to bad for a 2+ year old process since the price drops on the i5-3570 are looking to be to good to ignore. Only issue is I typically either pass my old hardware to my second gaming PC that my wife and kids use which is rocking a C2D overclocked to 3.2Ghz and AMD 6950 2GB. I would end up parting that PC and moving my existing hardware to that and then I guess trying to make some cash on that C2D which I really doubt I'd get much if anything at all.
That said do you think it's worth moving from the P55 to Ivy Bridge? I'm leaning toward no atm, but you never know.
Current Mobo: EVGA P55 FTW - http://www.evga.com/articles/00502/sli/
Current CPU: Intel i5-750 @ 3.7Ghz
Current GPU: EVGA GTX 680
Current PSU: Corsair 650W TX650
Current Memory: (2) GSkill Ripjaw X Series 8GB (2 x 4GB)
CoachKevin
Member
Just wanted to say thanks again for all your help with making my new PC a reality! Here is the result:
No problem! Think about taking a few hours, go through the cable management guide in the OP. Will help keep your system free of dust for a longer period of time, and make upgrading/changing/fixing stuff a lot easier.
Not really. Could try and OC a bit more too if you need a bit more gusto.
Lactose_Intolerant
Member
Just wanted to say thanks again for all your help with making my new PC a reality! Here is the result:
See if you can do something with those cables. At worst, get some zip ties.
Ok, what is seriously wrong with this SSD? http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16820211603
$189 for a 256GB SSD sounds too good...
$189 for a 256GB SSD sounds too good...
It's an unknown. Storing data on something that doesn't have a proven track record is a recipe for possible disaster.
Reliability is the #1 concern when you're talking about storage.
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Thanks to amazing Arken on GAF here, I am a proud owner of the XL2420T. Now that I've had a few days on it, there's a few things I wanted to share.
1) So buttery smooth.
2) Color is really bad out of the box, you need to calibrate this monitor. I'm not a color/photo/multimedia guy either, so you know it's something that needs to be done.
3) The stand is amazing, but huge. A little too huge for my setup which was created specifically to handle crappy monitor stands.
4) In direct comparison to the S23A, the picture isn't nearly as sharp.
I think I'm going to readjust my recommendations for 120hz now. S23A if PQ is super important to you, XL2420T if you hate gloss screens or are going 120hz for competitive gaming. It's won me over enough to replace the S23A for my main desktop, so I'm moving the S23A to be on the multimedia/second gaming machine, which is quite fitting.
TimeEffect
Member
Want to give me a list of things to get for building a PC that can play BF3 on low to medium? I dont want to change my tower, it's the family pc and my mom will pay for most of it provided she thinks im simply upgrading the bare minimum.
We generally need a new desktop, but I'll end up paying for any extras necessary for building the rig to meet BF3 requirements. I just want to know what I can take out and put in.
After seeing the Armored Kill trailer, I can't continue playing BF3 on consoles.
http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=21098207 is that any good? HDD is 6 GB, isn't that too low? I have a PS3 40 GB HDD in comparison..
We generally need a new desktop, but I'll end up paying for any extras necessary for building the rig to meet BF3 requirements. I just want to know what I can take out and put in.
After seeing the Armored Kill trailer, I can't continue playing BF3 on consoles.
http://secure.newegg.com/WishList/PublicWishDetail.aspx?WishListNumber=21098207 is that any good? HDD is 6 GB, isn't that too low? I have a PS3 40 GB HDD in comparison..
specialguy
Banned
LOl that's a ONE TERABYTE hard drive...
the 6.0 gb/s is the sata connection speed.
Everything looks very good to me though I'm not the best to comment on say, motherboards.
$633 for a pretty bare bones rig, no matter what people tell you PC gaming isn't cheap...
EDit: Unless you plan on adding more powerful stuff later, looks like you've shot too high on the power supply. A name brand 500 watt should be plenty and cheaper.
This should be fine and save you $50 (60 if you follow through with the rebate) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171046
That said, it's not a bad idea to future proof your power supply (eg, the 700 watt one you have picked out). That way should you get a beefier future rig, you can probably reuse the same PSU and save $. PSU's and cases are two things that can last a long time. It's up to you.
the 6.0 gb/s is the sata connection speed.
Everything looks very good to me though I'm not the best to comment on say, motherboards.
$633 for a pretty bare bones rig, no matter what people tell you PC gaming isn't cheap...
EDit: Unless you plan on adding more powerful stuff later, looks like you've shot too high on the power supply. A name brand 500 watt should be plenty and cheaper.
This should be fine and save you $50 (60 if you follow through with the rebate) http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817171046
That said, it's not a bad idea to future proof your power supply (eg, the 700 watt one you have picked out). That way should you get a beefier future rig, you can probably reuse the same PSU and save $. PSU's and cases are two things that can last a long time. It's up to you.
I thought they looked pretty good. Tidying cables was the most difficult part for me, they were all too long or too stiff to easily manoeuvre. Does it really make that much difference? Doesn't look like it'd obstruct airflow
Any awesome 3d card deals? Looking to replace a Readon hd4000 something, that I've been using FOREVER (runs most game well enough for me, but i think it's breaking and causing blue screens). Would like to spend ~$150 but would go up a little, don't need anything fancy, have a i3 3.1ghz 8 gb ram windows 7 64bit . Thank you.
OP, $530 build.
6870 can often be found for $150.
Going AMD over an i3 is kind of silly. There's nowhere to go with that socket, and it gets bested by the i3 in any processor demanding game. BF3 is one of the few where it doesn't matter, but it's really limiting outside of that.I threw this one together, pretty much exact to mine and I play bf3 great, bit cheaper too
*EDIT*
Fractal Design R4 Review.
well, I was just trying to save him some money, and the phenom is still plenty powerful for the next few years, least gaming wise. I like to give people options at least
With an i3, he gets expanded options for upgrading in the future.
I put together that one he linked with future upgrading in mind. Some changes here and there and it could easily be around $550 or so.
Big thanks to everyone here. Last night I built my first ever PC myself and the thread here has been a massive help. I'm hoping to test out some 120Hz gaming now on my monitor.
The only nerve racking part was the mounting of the CPU. Even after it went on easily a part of me still worried that it wasn't in right. The rest of the build I found fairly easy (I am an electronics technician by trade, work on a lot of other electronics but never PCs). Cable management still needs a lot of work but now that I know my PC is setup correctly I can easily go back and rejig (technical term) some things. I will OC my CPU in a couple weeks time but for now I am too eager to test out the PC. Turns out my cable for my monitor which has male parts for DVI-D actually goes into the DVI-I slot on my PC. That was the only issue I had but I managed to solve that after replacing video cards and trying a HDMI cable narrowed the issue pretty quickly.
In a month or so when I get more money I will be ordering a second 670 for SLI. When that is installed and I have fixed up my cables I will post my obligatory new PC pic. I can't stress how helpful this place has been.
Thanks
The only nerve racking part was the mounting of the CPU. Even after it went on easily a part of me still worried that it wasn't in right. The rest of the build I found fairly easy (I am an electronics technician by trade, work on a lot of other electronics but never PCs). Cable management still needs a lot of work but now that I know my PC is setup correctly I can easily go back and rejig (technical term) some things. I will OC my CPU in a couple weeks time but for now I am too eager to test out the PC. Turns out my cable for my monitor which has male parts for DVI-D actually goes into the DVI-I slot on my PC. That was the only issue I had but I managed to solve that after replacing video cards and trying a HDMI cable narrowed the issue pretty quickly.
In a month or so when I get more money I will be ordering a second 670 for SLI. When that is installed and I have fixed up my cables I will post my obligatory new PC pic. I can't stress how helpful this place has been.
Thanks
Can't wait to see it! Grats on the new build!
Not really.well, I was just trying to save him some money, and the phenom is still plenty powerful for the next few years, least gaming wise. I like to give people options at least
Min framerate is even more exaggerated than that, as the Q95 outperforms PII X4s.
While the help is of course appreciated, I don't think I can stress how much time and energy Haz puts into the OP. Literally every part in that chart is handpicked and tossed back and forth and agonized over.
You really can't build a better PC for the money than what's in the OP.
hey_it's_that_dog
benevolent sexism
I built my PC today and it booted fine the very first time. Much better than 4 years ago when I failed to install the heatsink properly and it shut down after 2 seconds.
Two questions:
1) The PC doesn't beep during startup (but it's obviously working and recognizes all components). Is it just that my case and/or mobo don't have a speaker?
2) My case fans work, but the 3-speed switch doesn't seem to do anything. What might be the problem there? What should I be looking for? There are a couple of cables that I can't identify that aren't plugged into anything, but I think they might be for hooking additional case fans to the fan controller. The case is the NZXT H2 if that helps. I was really disappointed with the documentation. There were a few unlabeled 4-pin connectors, which I'm assuming power the chassis fans, but who knows.
Two questions:
1) The PC doesn't beep during startup (but it's obviously working and recognizes all components). Is it just that my case and/or mobo don't have a speaker?
2) My case fans work, but the 3-speed switch doesn't seem to do anything. What might be the problem there? What should I be looking for? There are a couple of cables that I can't identify that aren't plugged into anything, but I think they might be for hooking additional case fans to the fan controller. The case is the NZXT H2 if that helps. I was really disappointed with the documentation. There were a few unlabeled 4-pin connectors, which I'm assuming power the chassis fans, but who knows.
specialguy
Banned
He gets two real extra cores with the X4 though. That's why I'd think a i3 2120 and a X4 @3.4 would be pretty similar. Also saves $15, maybe a cheaper mobo too.
Upgrades is a point, but I've found it's a false promise. Never once have I actually upgraded the CPU on the same mobo. Usually the gains are too slim to be worth it on the same socket, or it's not cost effective, or by the time you're ready new standards are out (USB 3, Sata, a new DDR standard, new socket, PCIE 3.0, whatever). Or the cpu to upgrade too is old and super expensive now.
At this point I buy with the view one CPU for one motherboard, upgrading never works out.
gutterboy44
Member
Ok, I finally took some pictures of my completed build. Thanks for those who helped with the questions, tips and tricks.
Fractal R3 w/ 2 included 120mm fans and a Noctua NF-P14 and NF-P12
ASRock Extreme 6 P77
i5 - 3570K (no OC yet)
Noctua NH-D14
8GB 1866 GSkill Sniper
Gigabyte GTX 670
Seasonic 80 Plus Gold 560W
2 x 1TB WD Caviar Black 6gb/s in RAID 1
1 x 1TB WD Green for back of of C:\ and dump files
Samsung 830 128gb
Fractal R3 w/ 2 included 120mm fans and a Noctua NF-P14 and NF-P12
ASRock Extreme 6 P77
i5 - 3570K (no OC yet)
Noctua NH-D14
8GB 1866 GSkill Sniper
Gigabyte GTX 670
Seasonic 80 Plus Gold 560W
2 x 1TB WD Caviar Black 6gb/s in RAID 1
1 x 1TB WD Green for back of of C:\ and dump files
Samsung 830 128gb
i3 @ 3.3 -> i5 @ 4.5 is a huge upgrade. That difference is linear performance increase.
Any game that is CPU bottlenecked is all about raw horsepower, not cores. n-threaded or multithreaded games for four threads are efficient enough that they are rarely a bottleneck. Check out BF3 or Civ V benches to see what I mean.
Any game that is CPU bottlenecked is all about raw horsepower, not cores. n-threaded or multithreaded games for four threads are efficient enough that they are rarely a bottleneck. Check out BF3 or Civ V benches to see what I mean.
got the same width as the XL now ... which is nice for cable management on the back of the motherboard tray
new fan controller is nice and functional as well ... definitely among the best cases out there
but why didn't they made sure it would fit the H100 ? seems like such a missed opportunity in today's market
and I like the XL / R3 power button better
@gutterboy44 - nice job on the cables ! I like how you put the GPU cables straight down the HDD cages instead of bending them around behind the tray
don't tell mkenyon you're using the frontpanel audio!
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