Support NeoGAF

[Hellish]

It's different in that you need to extend each of the wires that goes to the USB header and be sure that they are oriented properly.

Similar to the Ethernet then I guess but probably a bit harder. After the cut to put the end on it I had to put the cables back in the correct order.

Edit:Just thought of it now but I could always use the long ones from the front headers that I never hook up, I probably have a 550D that is unsellable to due cutting it like a hack to fit the RIVE in it.

Double Edit: Apparently no need as replacements are sold http://www.corsair.com/en/parts/case-parts/300r-front-i-o-panel-with-all-cables-and-connectors.html

Triple EditNow to find one with USB 3.0 and USB 2.0 as I have seen posts on various forums of USB 3.0 being weird with certain peripherals. Unfortunately the 800D one is not listed in corsairs parts section. Edit: found it somewhere else FUARK EDITS!@!@!

 

[mastershake]

The new stuff is sketchy right now. Possibly Q3/Q4 I think was original news, now there has been whispers of not releasing this year because it puts the Titan in a weird place. Gotta wait for an official announcement at this point.

Best article I can find right now on Nvidia's circumstances:
http://vr-zone.com/articles/no-nvid...e-march-2013-maxwell-only-in-2014-/17073.html

Either way, it's a guess and a crapshoot.

Thanks for the info!

I think I'll just upgrade in the fall then plan my next big upgrade around maxwell/whatever nextgen stuff AMD is working on.

 

[theSlacker]

Why would you want a filtered exhaust?

I know they make their cases to use their h100s and what not, but not everyone uses them, and some people like using the top as intake, or not at all. Don't like dust and cat hair being able to just float down though the top of the case when it is off. Even just a removable panel like the 550d had would be good if not a removable filter. Know you don't like the 300r, but that was my other problem with it, after the limited mounting for front fans. How the top was basically the same as this.

I do like most of what I see about this, and it fills a lot of what I want in a matx case. Not overly small for the sake of being small, just a case designed to fit a big cpu air cooler, and 2 pcie cards. Love that this has the extra bay opening for a second 2 slot card at the bottom as well. Room for just 1 more 3.5" drive and a filter on the top would make it perfect, and they have shown ways of doing both in their other cases. Like a removable hard drive bay to stack on the current one that will not block the top pcie card, and a fan filter. Well can't really say perfect yet since don't know about the front fan mounts and space I guess. But that is what disappoints, that it was so close.

 

[Hawk269]

Not that I'm a 900D hater or anything, I just like to make sure that the smaller guys who have dedicated their business to this sort of thing aren't getting overlooked by people who are interested in the 900D. These ones are full aluminum and are simply astonishing as far as features and build quality go.

CaseLabs SM8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BtSv2Qj0CAQ

CaseLabs SMH10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2K3sEqQYPQ

Little Devil PC-V7

What is that round thing in the last pic? The thing that is towards the top of the res???

 

[mkenyon]

Flow meter.

I know they make their cases to use their h100s and what not, but not everyone uses them, and some people like using the top as intake, or not at all. Don't like dust and cat hair being able to just float down though the top of the case when it is off. Even just a removable panel like the 550d had would be good if not a removable filter. Know you don't like the 300r, but that was my other problem with it, after the limited mounting for front fans. How the top was basically the same as this.

I do like most of what I see about this, and it fills a lot of what I want in a matx case. Not overly small for the sake of being small, just a case designed to fit a big cpu air cooler, and 2 pcie cards. Love that this has the extra bay opening for a second 2 slot card at the bottom as well. Room for just 1 more 3.5" drive and a filter on the top would make it perfect, and they have shown ways of doing both in their other cases. Like a removable hard drive bay to stack on the current one that will not block the top pcie card, and a fan filter. Well can't really say perfect yet since don't know about the front fan mounts and space I guess. But that is what disappoints, that it was so close.

Could get a CaseLabs SM5 and just use some demciflex filters

I am eagerly awaiting the inevitable Define/Arc Mini R2 as well. I'd imagine they'll nail it on features.

 

[Hellish]

What is that round thing in the last pic? The thing that is towards the top of the res???

A flow meter.

 

[snack]

What's a good modular Corsair power supply that would work with the best overall build from the OP.

 

[iavi]

Holy hell, watercooling is a whole 'nother black hole of funds.

What's a good modular Corsair power supply that would work with the best overall build from the OP.

Does it need to be Corsair?

 

[mkenyon]

What's a good modular Corsair power supply that would work with the best overall build from the OP.

Seasonic M12II.

A lot of the Corsair PSUs are rebranded Seasonics.

 

[snack]

Holy hell, watercooling is a whole 'nother black hole of funds.



Does it need to be Corsair?

Umm, not really. But most of new build consists of Corsair. Just trying to stick to a brand.

Right now I am using a TX750 but it is non-modular. Got it from my brother who gave me two-three years ago. I'm afraid the cable clutter will get in the way of making the final build messy looking.

 

[brentech]

What's your guys go to video benchmark app?
Think I'm going to play with my card here.

Is the free Heaven benchmark a decent choice?
nvm, I see the 'race your pc thread' in the OP uses 3DMark11 and is free as well.

 

[scogoth]

I just have 1 last problem now. I want to place the case on the other side of the wall but the KB+M usb cables are probably 1-2ft to short so I want to use something like this coming out of the case (ill probably cut a hole in the back panel), instead of a USB Extender.

but with longer cables if something exists and mount this inside the wall, do you or anyone in this thread know of one or if it would be relatively easy to re cable one myself, I have cut ethernet cables(to shorten) and power cables(to extend) and dont think this could be that much different.

http://www.performance-pcs.com/cata...=27434&zenid=3841fa89a89aa43647be64634005168a

It would cost a lot more than $5 to extend them yourself

EDIT: and now I read your edits. You can make any of the cables yourself just takes time and patience. And money. That way you can get any connectivity you want through the wall

 

[Momentary]

Not that I'm a 900D hater or anything, I just like to make sure that the smaller guys who have dedicated their business to this sort of thing aren't getting overlooked by people who are interested in the 900D. These ones are full aluminum and are simply astonishing as far as features and build quality go.


CaseLabs SMH10

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2K3sEqQYPQ

If it wasn't for the 900D this would be the case that I'd jump on. It's just the 900D has all this user friendly stuff for dimwits like me. From what I gathered I'd have to order other parts from Caselabs if I wanted to install certain components when Corsair already has almost everything I need from the get go.

Plus it looks dead sexy:

The SMH10 looks like the military grade server towers that the Marine Corps uses.

 

[snack]

Okay, so I checked out this SeaSonic M12II 650 SS-650AM 650W on Newegg:

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151106

Some of the wires are short according to some reviews on Newegg. That is not good.

 

[mkenyon]

Most of the accessories for CaseLabs are just oriented around having specific requirements, like creating a space for mounting a pump when any one of the walls/surfaces do not suffice.

None of it is really necessary if you are looking to do a plug and play type build.

Okay, so I checked out this SeaSonic M12II 650 SS-650AM 650W on Newegg:

http://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817151106

Some of the wires are short according to some reviews on Newegg. That is not good.

What case?

I've done builds with that PSU in a Define R4, BitFenix Shinobi, BitFenix Outlaw, BitFenix Prodigy, CM 690II Advanced, CM Scout II, and Corsair 550D. All worked just fine. Definitely too short for a full tower/XL-ATX case though.

 

[theSlacker]

Flow meter.

Could get a CaseLabs SM5 and just use some demciflex filters

I am eagerly awaiting the inevitable Define/Arc Mini R2 as well. I'd imagine they'll nail it on features.

The filter thing could easily be solved, either with an aftermarket filter or making a black blank to fit over the holes. The extra hard drive space can be harder. Could get one of those mounts that work in the drive bays, but then you can have heat problems. Will wait to see what the Define/Arc Mini R2 are like I guess.

 

[snack]

Most of the accessories for CaseLabs are just oriented around having specific requirements, like creating a space for mounting a pump when any one of the walls/surfaces do not suffice.

None of it is really necessary if you are looking to do a plug and play type build.

What case?

I've done builds with that PSU in a Define R4, BitFenix Shinobi, BitFenix Outlaw, BitFenix Prodigy, CM 690II Advanced, CM Scout II, and Corsair 550D. All worked just fine. Definitely too short for a full tower/XL-ATX case though.

Corsair Vengeance C70 (White) ATX Mid Tower Case

 

[mkenyon]

Only cable you will worry about is the CPU/EPS 8 Pin one. I'd wager it'll work just fine, but in the case that it doesn't, you can just get an extension.

 

[snack]

Only cable you will worry about is the CPU/EPS 8 Pin one. I'd wager it'll work just fine, but in the case that it doesn't, you can just get an extension.

Alright, cool. Thanks!

 

[News Bot]

Ordered up my graphics card, should be here in the morning. http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-063-HS

I'm still rocking an Intel Q6600 quad core. How much of a bottleneck can I expect? And is it better to wait for Haswell before buying a new processor?

I'm also pretty sure my RAM needs upgrading. I'm currently on 8GB, but I believe it's just 800mhz.

After the graphics card, I intend to move onto a new motherboard. Then RAM, then processor. Wallet be damned.

 

[snack]

This is what my build looks like so far:

PCPartPicker part list / Price breakdown by merchant / Benchmarks

CPU: Intel Core i5-3570K 3.4GHz Quad-Core Processor ($226.99 @ Newegg Canada)
CPU Cooler: Cooler Master Hyper 212 EVO 82.9 CFM Sleeve Bearing CPU Cooler ($29.99 @ NCIX)
Motherboard: Asus P8Z77-V LK ATX LGA1155 Motherboard ($124.50 @ Vuugo)
Memory: Corsair Vengeance 8GB (2 x 4GB) DDR3-1600 Memory ($57.99 @ Newegg Canada)
Case: Corsair Vengeance C70 (White) ATX Mid Tower Case ($114.99 @ Canada Computers)
Power Supply: SeaSonic 620W 80 PLUS Bronze Certified ATX12V / EPS12V Power Supply ($93.99 @ Newegg Canada)
Total: $648.45
(Prices include shipping, taxes, and discounts when available.)
(Generated by PCPartPicker 2013-04-16 19:26 EDT-0400)

I'm contemplating the gpu card next. I think I may side with Nvidia this time around. I've owned ATI cards for as long as I can remember. Are there things that you guys recommend I change to my build thus far? Any suggestions are welcome. This build is not yet final!

 

[kennah]

Ordered up my graphics card, should be here in the morning. http://www.overclockers.co.uk/showproduct.php?prodid=GX-063-HS

I'm still rocking an Intel Q6600 quad core. How much of a bottleneck can I expect? And is it better to wait for Haswell before buying a new processor?

I'm also pretty sure my RAM needs upgrading. I'm currently on 8GB, but I believe it's just 800mhz.

After the graphics card, I intend to move onto a new motherboard. Then RAM, then processor. Wallet be damned.

lol, a fuck of a lot. You may as well wait until Haswell and do CPU, motherboard and RAM all at the same time. Start saving those pennies.

Edit: and dont' forget, that your old cpu won't be compatible with the new motherboard. Totally different sockets.

 

[News Bot]

lol, a fuck of a lot. You may as well wait until Haswell and do CPU, motherboard and RAM all at the same time. Start saving those pennies.

Edit: and dont' forget, that your old cpu won't be compatible with the new motherboard. Totally different sockets.

Oh yeah I know that, was gonna get the motherboard and the processor at once. Not sure why I said processor after the RAM, lol.

I could buy everything now but I want to try and space it out so I'm not strapped for cash in other departments, haha.

 

[TouchMyBox]

Here's a list of cases that move in that direction off the top of my head:

Lian Li A55, A05, V700, V750, A75, A76. (one or two)

Cubitek Magicube AIO (one)

Fractal Arc Midi R2, Arc Mini, Define R4, Define XL R2 (all have two)

In Win H Frame (one)

CaseLabs, they can be 3.5, 5.25", radiator mounts, or fan mounts.

Thanks for the suggestions. I've been looking around at some of the Lian-Lis and the v700 and v750 are especially neat because they are larger versions of my little lian-li NAS box. I think ideally I'd go for a PC-V700WX but without the side windows if that's possible. Looks like it's not easy to buy in Canada though at the moment.

 

[t-ramp]

I uninstalled my 13.3 AMD drivers, booted in Safe Mode and used Driver Sweeper, and then got a variety of BSODs upon attempts to boot. Fucking computers. Thank God I had System Restore on.

 

[mkenyon]

Vsync lovers, prepare to cry a bit.

I uninstalled my 13.3 AMD drivers, booted in Safe Mode and used Driver Sweeper, and then got a variety of BSODs upon attempts to boot. Fucking computers. Thank God I had System Restore on.

Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about Driver Sweeper anymore. I've had a few weird issues as well.

 

[brentech]

I assume that the Race Your PC thread is basically a dead thing thing at this point? Looks like almost all the Nvidia cards are from the 500 series.
Still interesting to compare, but yeah.

 

[oneils]

I use a Logitech K400 for keyboard/trackpad combo. I don't like the small right shift as the up arrow key gets in the way. Touchpad is ok and can scroll with 2 finger swipe. For games I bought the Xbox controller that comes with the wireless dongle.

I went with this wireless keyboard with mouse pad. http://www.amazon.com/dp/B005DKZTMG/?tag=neogaf0e-20

Its super thin and light works great, the mousepad is just as good as if you were using a laptop.
Price is right too.

Thanks guys for the recommendation.

Now, another question. For my main PC I have a 460gtx. Lately having trouble cranking up the AA for newer games on my 1080p display.

Thinking of picking up an Asus GTX 660 OC. Seems like a popular card on NCIX canada. I was wondering if folks think this might be a worthwhile upgrade or if anyone here knows of another 200dollar range type card coming down the pipe?

 

[iavi]

Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about Driver Sweeper anymore. I've had a few weird issues as well.

Is there any alternative?

 

[mkenyon]

Not using it. I've been following this format:

1. Download new driver, make sure old installer is long gone.

2. Delete everything in C:\AMD or C:\NVIDIA

3. Go into Add/Remove Programs, remove all AMD or NVIDIA drivers.

4. Restart PC.

5. Upon boot, it shouldn't be able to auto install any drivers. If it did, you didn't do #2.

6. Install latest drivers.

 

[scogoth]

Vsync lovers, prepare to cry a bit.

Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about Driver Sweeper anymore. I've had a few weird issues as well.

Adaptive V-Sync baby. Nvidia thought of this already.

Spoiler

Yeah I don't use v-sync, 120Hz is the answer

 

[cpp_is_king]

Adaptive V-Sync baby. Nvidia thought of this already.

Spoiler

Yeah I don't use v-sync, 120Hz is the answer

I actually had a lot of difficulty telling the first video apart, where they were running down the alley. Then I got to the part where he said "I think almost everyone should be able to see easily that the first video is smoother than the second video" and felt like a moron

I downloaded it via the mega link however and it was easier to see then, but can anyone tell the difference between the two via the youtube link? I don't even think youtube supports 60fps playback does it? It also didn't help that the second video seemed to lag about a half second behind the first video, it's like they didn't get the timing 100% perfect.

 

[Irobot82]

Is there any alternative?

I can't take credit for this, I got it somewhere, so random dude credit, but this is what I do for AMD.

(1) Run the Application Profiles (CAP) uninstaller from 'Programs and Features', select 'No' to restarting now.
(2) Run the AMD uninstaller from 'Programs and Features'. Express uninstall all ATI, select 'No' to restarting now.
(3) Uninstall any leftovers in the case that step (2) fails with Windows Installer Cleanup available here.
(4) Manually delete all AMD and ATI registry entries from HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software, HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE, and HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Wow6432Node
(5) Manually delete any AMD or ATI folders from C:\Users\<YourUserName>\AppData\Local, C:\Users\<YourUserName>\AppData\Roaming, C:\ProgramData, C:\Program Files, and C:\Program Files (x86)
(6) Manually delete any AMD and ATI related files from C:\windows\system32 and C:\windows\syswow64 -- for this step I use the command prompt:
del C:\windows\system32\ati*.*
del C:\windows\syswow64\amd*.*
del C:\windows\system32\amd*.*
del C:\windows\syswow64\ati*.*
(7) Under Device Manager, right click your AMD card(s) and select Uninstall, and check the box that says 'Delete the driver software for this device'
(8) Finally, reboot and install your new driver.

 

[iavi]

Not using it. I've been following this format:

1. Download new driver, make sure old installer is long gone.

2. Delete everything in C:\AMD or C:\NVIDIA

3. Go into Add/Remove Programs, remove all AMD or NVIDIA drivers.

4. Restart PC.

5. Upon boot, it shouldn't be able to auto install any drivers. If it did, you didn't do #2.

6. Install latest drivers.

I can't take credit for this, I got it somewhere, so random dude credit, but this is what I do for AMD.

(1) Run the Application Profiles (CAP) uninstaller from 'Programs and Features', select 'No' to restarting now.
(2) Run the AMD uninstaller from 'Programs and Features'. Express uninstall all ATI, select 'No' to restarting now.
(3) Uninstall any leftovers in the case that step (2) fails with Windows Installer Cleanup available here.
(4) Manually delete all AMD and ATI registry entries from HKEY_CURRENT_USER\Software, HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE, and HKEY_LOCAL_MACHINE\SOFTWARE\Wow6432Node
(5) Manually delete any AMD or ATI folders from C:\Users\<YourUserName>\AppData\Local, C:\Users\<YourUserName>\AppData\Roaming, C:\ProgramData, C:\Program Files, and C:\Program Files (x86)
(6) Manually delete any AMD and ATI related files from C:\windows\system32 and C:\windows\syswow64 -- for this step I use the command prompt:
del C:\windows\system32\ati*.*
del C:\windows\syswow64\amd*.*
del C:\windows\system32\amd*.*
del C:\windows\syswow64\ati*.*
(7) Under Device Manager, right click your AMD card(s) and select Uninstall, and check the box that says 'Delete the driver software for this device'
(8) Finally, reboot and install your new driver.

Sounds like that'd do it, though; I hate having to driversweep as it is, this looks like it'll take even longer lol.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Is there any alternative?

Do you really need one? I started out with a 7970 in my machine. Replaced it with a GTX 680. I turned off the computer, removed the 7970, put in the 680, installed the drivers, everything works fine.

I think a lot of people get too caught up in these little details that don't really make a difference. Let Windows do its thing, it's gotten pretty good now by Windows 7 (this wasn't always the case with older versions)

Having orphaned files or registry settings lingering around on your system isn't going to have any negative effects anyway.

 

[Irobot82]

Sounds like that'd do it, though; I hate having to driversweep as it is, this looks like it'll take even longer lol.

Yeah, I think you could probably create a bat file that does all the deleting from cmd, I've just never tried yet. Should be pretty simple if someone knows how to make one.

Do you really need one? I started out with a 7970 in my machine. Replaced it with a GTX 680. I turned off the computer, removed the 7970, put in the 680, installed the drivers, everything works fine.

I think a lot of people get too caught up in these little details that don't really make a difference. Let Windows do its thing, it's gotten pretty good now by Windows 7 (this wasn't always the case with older versions)

I have windows 8 and I will say with the AMD drivers I was constantly having BSOD's when trying to install new drivers. If I didn't do this method was just wrecking my system.

 

[cpp_is_king]

I have windows 8 and I will say with the AMD drivers I was constantly having BSOD's when trying to install new drivers. If I didn't do this method was just wrecking my system.

Well, I will say that Win8 is a different beast so I can't speak for that. They changed the driver model in some complicated ways, so I think it's a combination of some instability on MS's part from having such big changes to their driver model, and instability on the driver maker's part from not having as much experience with the driver model.

For Win7 though, I think it works fine. If you want to be really extra safe though, just uninstall the thing through the control panel, then turn off the machine and install new hardware. (basically what mkenyon said)

Regardless though, I never trust a 3rd party more than the manufacturer of the original software to edit my registry for me.

 

[Dave_6]

Well I got it together but not all is well:


I did a test boot last night before putting everything in the case and all seemed ok (got a display on my TV at least). Got it all buttoned up and hooked it back up and now I'm getting no display at all and the debug LED on the mobo says 62 and I don't see that in the manual.

I think I have the H60 fan on backwards as it felt like it was pulling air into the case.

 

[brentech]

Ran 3DMark11 for the first time. 3570k @ 4.5Ghz, MSI 660 TF/OC kept at the factory overclock scored a 7013.

Power limit increased to 115%
Upped the core clock by 40mhz and scored P7234.

Now I have to play with the memory clock. And see if I can find something stable there.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Well I got it together but not all is well:


I did a test boot last night before putting everything in the case and all seemed ok (got a display on my TV at least). Got it all buttoned up and hooked it back up and now I'm getting no display at all and the debug LED on the mobo says 62 and I don't see that in the manual.

I think I have the H60 fan on backwards as it felt like it was pulling air into the case.

What mobo is it?

 

[Dave_6]

MSI MPower

Also the power LED on the case isn't working either.

 

[Celcius]

A pc fan always pulls air into the "open" side and pushes it out of the side with the the four pieces that go from the center to outer part. From the photo above, all fans seem to be oriented correctly.
Have you double checked the front panel connectors?

 

[oneils]

A pc fan always pulls air into the "open" and pushes it out of the side with the the four pieces that go from the center to outer part. From the photo above, all fans seem to be oriented correctly.
Have you double checked the front panel connectors?

This is the most common reason for new builds of mine to not boot up. I messed up the front panel connectors. I'd start there. If that does not fix it, try reseating all power connectors, and then memory.

 

[TheD]

Vsync lovers, prepare to cry a bit.

Yeah, I'm not sure how I feel about Driver Sweeper anymore. I've had a few weird issues as well.

What is the point of that article?

Double buffered Vsync drops down to 33ms frame time when it can not reach 16ms frame time?...... NO SHIT!

 

[scogoth]

What is the point of that article?

Double buffered Vsync drops down to 33ms frame time when it can not reach 16ms frame time?...... NO SHIT!

The point is the constant switching between the two introduces a stuttering effect that makes the game appear to be even worse than a constant 30fps

 

[RavenHawk]

I'm wondering if anyone would be able to help...trying to overclock my Club 7870 XT graphics card and I'm having no joy whatsoever. I've read up on multiple guides and can overclock the memory just fine, but the core clock refuses to budge at all. I can move it, but GPU-Z reports no difference (stuck at 925 during 100% load) and I don't see any better figures from Furmark's benchmark (which suggests GPU-Z is correct). Even a 5Mhz increase doesn't register.

And the card is supposed to 'boost' to 975, which it isn't.

Has anyone come across this before? Very frustrating!

What program are you using when you attempt to overclock your card?

 

[snack]

When the 700/8000 series cards come out, will the 600/7000 series cards get a price drop?

 

[MadOdorMachine]

I was looking to replace my 560 Ti with a GTX 690 or a Titan, but after doing some research I've found that the 690 won't work at all w/my mobo and that the Titan is probably a bit overkill for just using a single 1080p monitor. I'm now looking at a 7970 GHz edition and was wondering what people's thoughts are on this card and which brand to use. From what I can see Sapphire and HIS seem to be the preferred choice. All I've used in the past are EVGA/Nvidia but seeing as how AMD will be making the GPU's in PS4/Durango I think it might not be a bad idea to switch vendors. So is the card I linked above a good choice for upgrading from a 560 Ti? Below are my specs.

Samsung 1080p monitor
Intel Core i7 - 2600K CPU
ASUS P8P67 Mobo
Corsair Vengeance DD3 1600 (8 GB)
750W Power Supply
Cooler Master Elite 430 Case
560 Ti GPU

 

[Demon Ice]

Vsync lovers, prepare to cry a bit.

That's why I would never use standard, double buffered Vsync. Triple buffering + adaptive Vsync FTW.

 

[brentech]

Ran 3DMark11 for the first time. 3570k @ 4.5Ghz, MSI 660 TF/OC kept at the factory overclock scored a 7013.

Power limit increased to 115%
Upped the core clock by 40mhz and scored P7234.

Now I have to play with the memory clock. And see if I can find something stable there.

Brought my memory clock up as well now. Think I'll stick with where it's at. Ran the test fine and scored a P7349.
So over 300 point increase from the card out of box.

I bought this card as a low/mid level quality card that I figured I'd replace when new series cards came out. Might go with 780 series, we'll see how that all plays out.