-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
I took a trip to North Korea. (Pic heavy)
- Thread starter SuperBanana
- Start date
- Status
Shamrock7r
Member
Pretty much this.
When you can't actually articulate a sound, reasonable defense, and your only way to defend yourself is "if you disagree I understand", or "don't listen to the haters" that should tell you something.
infinitys_7th
Member
Almost all their money is going into supporting the show areas. The real question is if the show areas just look okay, what do the unshown areas look like?
heliosRAzi
Banned
Your OP is literally propganda
SuperBanana
Banned
Sorry, did we read a different thread? Saying something is fascinating and enlightening is not saying it's good. I mean, shit, I might be Kim Jong Un himself with those glaring endorsements!
Bearjewpiter
Neo Member
Yes we are, most of the world is missing out on the beauty that an entire country has to offer because of despicable humans.
Edit: maybe you take issue with me saying that we're missing out on their culture, I have no interest in a culture of using the populous as NK does but I enjoy learning about any culture that's different, be it morally bankrupt or not
Shmuppers
Member
they don't like us man
Also, how can you deny that words like "fascinating" carry positive connotation
The part that rubbed me the wrong way about the OP was where he talked about 'getting a better understanding of the country'.
You did not get a better understanding of anything. I would wager damn near 100% of the people you saw were part of the experience. From the people sweeping the roads to the people on the train. Look up other peoples pictures from tours. They have people sweeping too. Do they all go at the same sweeping time or something?
There is a reason the tours are so controlled. They make sure you only see what they want you to see. It was all fake. It wasn't just 'the parts that were fake'. Every single thing about your trip was fake. Ms Puk has to be friendly because otherwise her family will be murdered. If for some reason she isn't playing a part when you said 'she wants to visit Austraila and isn't brainwashed' and someone from the company or regime saw that, her whole family will be killed, so there's that.
l the people you saw, even the 'poor but not really poor' farmers were part of it. These people live better than most of the population of NK for the optics alone. The only people that live better than them are ruling elite.
For an actual understanding on what goes on there, here are some links:
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/sep/19/north-korea-prison-camp-14-documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzUIU5PvLOo
And yes, spending money there just supports this. No one demonizes the NK people. They are the victims. The money you gave them doesn't stay with them, sadly.
You did not get a better understanding of anything. I would wager damn near 100% of the people you saw were part of the experience. From the people sweeping the roads to the people on the train. Look up other peoples pictures from tours. They have people sweeping too. Do they all go at the same sweeping time or something?
There is a reason the tours are so controlled. They make sure you only see what they want you to see. It was all fake. It wasn't just 'the parts that were fake'. Every single thing about your trip was fake. Ms Puk has to be friendly because otherwise her family will be murdered. If for some reason she isn't playing a part when you said 'she wants to visit Austraila and isn't brainwashed' and someone from the company or regime saw that, her whole family will be killed, so there's that.
l the people you saw, even the 'poor but not really poor' farmers were part of it. These people live better than most of the population of NK for the optics alone. The only people that live better than them are ruling elite.
For an actual understanding on what goes on there, here are some links:
https://www.theguardian.com/film/2013/sep/19/north-korea-prison-camp-14-documentary
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KzUIU5PvLOo
And yes, spending money there just supports this. No one demonizes the NK people. They are the victims. The money you gave them doesn't stay with them, sadly.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Now post the part where you say it's poor, but not as poor as you thought and that you left with a much better understanding.
Milly Osworth
Member
Nice read, thanks. Crazy how something like this is still possible in 2016.
SuperBanana
Banned
Pyongyang isn't as poor as I imagined, no. It's also the elite and richest part of NK but I imagined it to be much more run down and poorer looking similar to other poor Asian countries. It has beer, it has coke and other sodas, many places even use solar panels. I didn't think any of that was available there.
Thanks. Always nice to throw in a personal insult because I traveled somewhere you don't approve of. I'll let the rest of the group who went know we're all touched in the head.
Gamer @ Heart
Member
Bro, come on. We all know the government is fucking insane. It's the parts where you praise these little touches and more where you forget, this was all set up.
Those smiling kids you saw was orchestrated and timed. Half the people you saw only job is to play the parts you saw.
OP has to be trolling us at this point. I refuse to believe someone could be this oblivious.
PassiveObserver
Member
OP staying obstinate. Please realize that you left NK with exactly the mindset that the regime wanted you to leave with.
You were in a large amusement park isolated from Pyongyang. It actually is as poor as you'd imagine, you just didn't get to actually see Pyongyang.
SuperBanana
Banned
I told you a lot was faked and I'm recounting my experience. Obviously, those experiences are altered. Did I ever say "WOW THIS IS GREAT"?
And no, those kids weren't. We simply drove past them and I had my camera at the ready. They weren't orchestrated and timed. Now you're just claiming bullshit. Stop telling me how my own trip went. You've never been. ONE other person has yet everyone knows exactly how it's run. The arrogance is astounding.
LucidMomentum
Member
It's almost as if the parts of the country you are the parts of the country they want you to see?
I'm curious, did you have any ability to choose where you wanted to go during this trip? Or was everything scheduled for you? Did you have no objections to losing your passport?
I don't think any place that demands my passport and holds me for ransom during the trip would be one worth visiting, IMO.
stan423321
Member
The harsh reality is that if you have two options when it comes to playing nice with citizens of highly twisted totalitarian regimes (as well as some other types of social organizations), and both aren't perfect but one you're implicitly suggesting is worse. You can do that stuff playing nice with the regime itself or not. If you do it with their leaders then they will do their best - and they're good at it, believe me - to try to twist it to their purposes. The straightest case is that they will try to take over the profits quietly, but they may in fact go and announce that they mightily forced you to give it to them. And then probably quietly take over the profits anyway.
Playing against leaders could be considered more risky by someone insanely pessimistic, but for the reason stated above it's overall the way to go in case of leaders that are as crazy as North Korean ones seem to be, barring some really starking revelations about state of things there.
Wrong, and how wrong. Of course they (leaders) have time and effort that they could use on work on the country, however small. The critical part is that they don't need to, to stay afloat as is. Some would even say - they need not to, to keep the citizens too focused on daily struggle to analyze things. Managing a totalitarian country is possible under opposing citizens but they do not help.
On the other hand they need to have some people keeping their PR up because party members not getting Western tech would suck, slightly. Priorities, man.
CloudyTuba
Member
All these people going on the exact same on-rails tour as each other in the designated and allowed areas and they think they've seen North Korea.
I imagine they're not even close. It's like inviting someone into your house after you've stuffed all your dirty shit into the bedrooms to make the livingroom presentable. Oh, sure, walk into my kitchen, look into my fridge freely. Take a beer if you want. Nice, right?
But if you wander into my bedroom and find the body under my bed I'll fucking murder you.
That's how I understand North Korea. I'm sure the tour is one of the nicest places in all of NK.
Your government supervised trip is at odds with descriptions from actual North Koreans. Which is more likely - refugees are lying about the state of the country they fled, or that you only saw what the North Korean government, infamous for being extremely controlling, wanted you to see?
Gamer @ Heart
Member
Go read about other people's trips.
SuperBanana
Banned
You can custom build your own tour. To other cities, towns, events, and even request brand new things that you think of. The group guides are the highlights.
You still are missing it. We are not calling you naive for missing the obviously staged stuff. You found those out but you got tricked to the not obvious. You mentioning the farms looking good, the hot cool guide, the store with people, the beer, etc. All that is as planned as the obvious stuff yet you missed it
IOW it's proaganda.
And they still take away your passports. Good thing OP didn't accidentally go off the amusement ride rails!
Fenderputty
Banned
I don't know what's more depressing, the OP or the amount of people posting they thought the OP was a good informative read.
Dreams-Visions
Member
Sad this even had to be posted.
LookAtMeGo
Member
So all those happy people dancing on the beach were payed actors?
LucidMomentum
Member
So like the Truman show?
I guess what I'm saying is, did you get time to freely wander on your own and / or deviate from the "planned" tour?
Like, if I go on a trip I rarely stick to the planned itinerary. I usually end up wandering / finding new things or talking to the locals.
NK doesn't seem like a fun trip, human rights issues regardless.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
No one would have to tell you how your trip went if you understood it.
Juche does this. They do it to themselves. They're literally waiting for the moment to take SK off the map. Why would we give them aid and tech?
infinitys_7th
Member
You drove past them on a planned route at a planned time that just "coincidentally" mirrors other guided tours as much as one night's performance of Hamlet mirrors the next performance.
Those kids are probably prepped a couple hours before and placed there. And I swear I've read that exact description of how NK kids react to foreigners elsewhere - "like we were celebrities". Is that a normal reaction for children to strangers?
In most of the country, access to the beach is entirely restricted, because people will try to swim away. And the waters are filled with barbed wire and mines.
So yes.
SuperBanana
Banned
I could explain why you're wrong but the arrogance and ignorance will just keep going. Unless you go there and see for yourself you're just mimicking other peoples opinions and most of those are opinions from people who haven't been either.
lmao. Yes. Have you never been out of your own country? Kids in China go wild over white travelers. Hell, the adults do too. They want selfies and take snap shots of you. Gasp in awe at your height and hair colour. Same in Fiji. Same in a lot of African areas.
DiipuSurotu
Banned
Fixed
Thelonelykoopa
Member
I'm going to stop you there. Pyongyang looks nicer because most those buildings were built before the 90s. Its also looks nice because its the only place the government keeps up.Outside of the city the infastructure has collasped and the people have to fend for themselves which is one of the problems I have with your OP as they dont get free housing,jobs,education. The North Korean government doesnt have shit together hell they made it so their military cant communicate with each other why? Because they fear a coup if their military had any form of order. Their is glimmer of hope such as a blossoming underground captialist market but this is not because of the government butin spote of the government.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
The person you're responding to laid it out perfectly and you still don't get it.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I don't oppose the very idea of going on the tour. Yes, it funds corruption, but so does buying a diamond or an iPhone.
You just have to know what you're actually participating in. The jury is out on whether the OP does. I can't tell if he's genuinely misunderstanding it, or if GAF is grilling him hard because they disagree with the very concept of going to NK.
You just have to know what you're actually participating in. The jury is out on whether the OP does. I can't tell if he's genuinely misunderstanding it, or if GAF is grilling him hard because they disagree with the very concept of going to NK.
Fenderputty
Banned
And you don't think you're spreading propaganda. LMFAO
Nah, I actually feel like I've been on this trip multiple times considering every single story recounting their experience in North Korea is exactly the same.
Dynamite Shikoku
Congratulations, you really deserve it!
Op got hook line and sinkered
Jon Armdog
Member
Holy shit dude. Really? You realize this sounds exactly like scripted propaganda
walking fiend
Member
I am sure they showed you 'everything'
And you were asking why we think you're spurting propaganda?
Da-Kid
Member
LookAtMeGo
Member
Jeebus.
Touche.
I just watched this one. Seems a little more eye opening seeing it from the perspective of a defector rather than a tourist.
https://youtu.be/_ZEmDpkz0g4
- Status