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[More_Badass]

These are people who can barely keep their military weapons clean and useable, can barely farm to feed themselves, yet are experts at setting up alternate reality and flawless representations of a fake, second, North Korea to deceive foreigners?


Nah, sorry. I don't believe it.

You're kidding right?

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

There are entire chapters about it in Nothing to Envy.

You seem to be ignoring that book.

That book was written in 2009 about a famine that happened even earlier.

We're talking about North Korea in 2016.

Give some citation yourself on this one.

Look up Foxconn human rights abuses. Look up suicide nets. Look up the human rights abuses in North Africa due to the boom in mining trade.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

You're kidding right?

Are they crafty experts at deception or are they poverty stricken, on the verge of starvation, and about to crumble under their own weight?

It is cognitive dissonance to believe both.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Is it actually that nuts there that they basically put on a Truman show for everyone visiting? Like placing fake/paid people around the city to deceive visitors? As someone who isnt very educated on the country it just sounds so outlandish and conspiritory. I can't believe places like this exist. Anyway. Off to do some research.

 

[Krejlooc]

Sure I get that but the camps aren't in Pyongyang itself, just like the gulags were in the rest of the soviet union, with East Berlin being one of the most visible areas of the USSR which was heavy on the censorship/propaganda/monuments to their Dear Leader.

The thing he posted about Auschwitz - emaciated children clearly starving to death - goes on in Pyongyang as well. It was just beyond his sight, where he wasn't allowed to go.

 

[MikeHattsu]

People in North Korea, particularly those near the DMZ, already get hints about how backwards their world is. South Korea will use intercom systems to blast information into North Korea. The information they blast isn't just "Your government is lying to you!" type stuff, they'll broadcast, for example, upcoming weather forecasts - the type of forecasts North Korea actually doesn't have the technology to produce themselves. When your enemy can demonstrate knowledge like this, it fucks with the minds of north Koreans.

The people OP got to interact with are already elite. They are not the type to waiver.

+ the smuggling in of outside media:
https://www.wired.com/2015/03/north-korea/

Probably does more than visiting on one of these tours will ever do.

 

[Fenderputty]

Every country commits human rights abuses. The things that North Korea does to it's people? Apple/Samsung/etc does to the North African miners. Apple/Samsung/etc do the laborers to assemble the products you use.

This was a false equivalency when it was first posted and it is now. Wake me when going to NK on a tour is as required in every day life as owning a cell phone. Then wake me again when the laborers making the phones are in the 20+ million category.

 

[Krejlooc]

That book was written in 2009 about a famine that happened even earlier.

We're talking about North Korea in 2016.

North Korea hasn't had some miracle turn around in 7 years. In fact, their infrastructure has gotten even poorer. The book even goes into that.

People still die in Pyongyang of starvation.

 

[Izuna]

You're kidding right?

I can't believe it. People have taken edgy to a new level.

 

[Nickle]

Are they crafty experts at deception or are they poverty stricken, on the verge of starvation, and about to crumble under their own weight?

It is cognitive dissonance to believe both.

Just because the leaders are smart doesn't mean that they care about the health of the people.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

you can't hand wave away the concentration camps

In America or in North Korea?

Cause they exist in both.




This came across my RSS feed this morning:


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...overty?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Teens in low-income communities, overlooked by childhood nutrition policies, do sex work, save school lunches, sell drugs and join gangs for food, report says

Literal starvation in your own country but it's not some third world boogeyman. Yet people are perfectly fine keeping the status quo here, but want to wall off North Korea and hole them up and make the situation for them even worse.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

????????

So if you know it was all fake, why did you include this in your OP?

No one left without a much better understanding of the country you see in the news almost daily.

I mean, you left with a better impression than when you arrived:

Overall, it's a weird country. It's poor but not as poor as I thought. There aren't people eating tree roots or fully emancipated. I can't claim I know every part of the country but I saw as much as any westerner will ever get to see for a long time.

Which was the entire point of their tour.

 

[nekkid]

North Korea has a very insecure feel to it. You know that kid at school who always talks shit about how his uncle works for Nintendo and gets him all the new games before they come out? Think of that kid as a country. They boast about every monument taking only days to build because of "Kim Jong Un's great leadership" or how they're the best at everything. Many times they'll claim something then blame America for ruining it so they can't show you. For example a Temple being thousands of years old....until America bombed it and now the Temple was rebuilt like 15 years ago...but it's still technically thousands of years old! ...Right? Did you know Korea invented spoons? How about gun powder? You thought it was China but wrong! They also invented the printing press 500 years before anyone else. And most importantly they invented the massage chair. Korea is also where life began. Not Africa but Korea. Trust me on this. It has Kim Jong Un's tick of approval. People think the entire country will have a "Truman Show" feel to it but the bullshit they do actually come up with is pretty obvious. You can tell the fact from the fiction.
The country seems to happily endorse eugenics too. There is in fact a religious political party in North Korea who are run by actual Buddhist monks. The problem is the monks aren't allowed to preach, aren't allowed to leave certain areas, and are never allowed to marry or have kids. So while technically the political party does exist it's been oppressed into literal oblivion and the monks will eventually die out. There are only a hand full left that live there and seem to have accepted their fate. Not like they have a choice.

You know, now that I think about it, NK is a lot like this guy:

Even the nuclear testing thing seem remarkably similar to him shouting "bus wankers!".

Thoroughly interesting read, OP. Glad you had a good time.

 

[nynt9]

In America or in North Korea?

Cause they exist in both.




This came across my RSS feed this morning:


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...overty?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard





Literal starvation in your own country but it's not some third world boogeyman. Yet people are perfectly fine keeping the status quo here, but want to wall off North Korea and hole them up and make the situation for them even worse.

I'm really curious as to what you're trying to prove with all these false equivalences and "technically correct but basically wrong" arguments in defense of North Korea.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

In America or in North Korea?

Cause they exist in both.




This came across my RSS feed this morning:


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...overty?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard





Literal starvation in your own country but it's not some third world boogeyman. Yet people are perfectly fine keeping the status quo here, but want to wall off North Korea and hole them up and make the situation for them even worse.

Yes, I believe I've read enough GAF for today.

wut

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

This was a false equivalency when it was first posted and it is now. Wake me when going to NK on a tour is as required in every day life as owning a cell phone. Then wake me again when the laborers making the phones are in the 20+ million category.

So your participation in human rights abuses is okay because you need to do it?

Just because the leaders are smart doesn't mean that they care about the health of the people.

I don't think the NK leaders are smart. I think they're ignorant, walled off, self centered, paranoid, lunatics who have to keep appearances going through the use of raw force, not cunning.

It's some people in this thread who think that NK leaders are some masters of distraction, putting on an elaborate stage show.

 

[Krejlooc]

Literal starvation in your own country but it's not some third world boogeyman. Yet people are perfectly fine keeping the status quo here, but want to wall off North Korea and hole them up and make the situation for them even worse.

Actually, I'd assume most people in this topic belong to a nation that is part of the UN, in which case they belong to a nation offering thousands of pounds of food and medicine each year, that Kim Jong Un refuses in favor of his nuclear arms program.

I have yet to see a single post in this thread condemning the people of North Korea.

 

[collige]

Is it actually that nuts there that they basically put on a Truman show for everyone visiting? Like placing fake/paid people around the city to deceive visitors? As someone who isnt very educated on the country it just sounds so outlandish and conspiritory. I can't believe places like this exist. Anyway. Off to do some research.

It's not like NK is Jamaica or some other country that has a booming tourist industry. We're talking about probably a dozen western tourists at any given time, all under constant surveillance.

 

[BronsonLee]

I see things have progressed in this thread about as well as can be expected

 

[MrKaepora]

Are they crafty experts at deception or are they poverty stricken, on the verge of starvation, and about to crumble under their own weight?

It is cognitive dissonance to believe both.

You do know that you're talking about a country who invests, according to wikipedia, 20.8% of their GDP in the military and has to ask China for food and medicines right?

 

[Azuran]

In America or in North Korea?

Cause they exist in both.




This came across my RSS feed this morning:


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...overty?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard





Literal starvation in your own country but it's not some third world boogeyman. Yet people are perfectly fine keeping the status quo here, but want to wall off North Korea and hole them up and make the situation for them even worse.

This is a real post

 

[SuperBanana]

These are people who can barely keep their military weapons clean and useable, can barely farm to feed themselves, yet are experts at setting up alternate reality and flawless representations of a fake, second, North Korea to deceive foreigners?


Nah, sorry. I don't believe it.

There is plenty of fakeness to it. However, even though people who have never been seen to know more than I do, they fake it poorly. The real and the fake are easy to tell apart and everyone was well aware of when the bullshit started to flow and we were even told by the western guide a lot of times. He even said at one part "What you're about to see is all a bit of bullshit but just go along with it and I'll answer any questions at the end".

Pyongyang is the "elite" of North Korea though and you can also tell. Locals in the city can dine out maybe once a week and shop occasionally but all still reply heavily on the government. The farmers are poor and villagers wash their clothes in the stream and have cows and carts to transport things around. The city has cars and trucks. I expected the "elite" class to be much poorer which is why I said it didn't seem as awful as portrayed. I never came across the poorest or the camps so I don't know why people assume I was talking about them at all.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

I'm really curious as to what you're trying to prove with all these false equivalences and "technically correct but basically wrong" arguments in defense of North Korea.

No one is defending North Korea. North Korea is awful.

It's not false equivalences. North Korea doesn't have a monopoly on human rights abuses and no one in this thread who says they actually care about human rights abuses actually care about them. They just want to join in the political theater and rail against a boogeyman.

 

[heliosRAzi]

Are they crafty experts at deception or are they poverty stricken, on the verge of starvation, and about to crumble under their own weight?

It is cognitive dissonance to believe both.

Forced labor is free.

I see things have progressed in this thread about as well as can be expected

Better than expected.

 

[Fenderputty]

So your participation in human rights abuses is okay because you need to do it?

I can't control where or how cell phones are made. I can control whether or not I give money to the DPRK. But continue on with your false equivalencies. You're on a roll.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

I have yet to see a single post in this thread condemning the people of North Korea.

You're literally shitting on the OP for daring to go to North Korea and interacting with the people there. Instead your policy is that we should wall them off.


The UN regularly cancels food aid to North Korea, collectively punishing the average, innocent, people for something they didn't do.

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...-after-missile-launch-warns-of-more-sanctions

 

[Kill Your Masters]

Look up Foxconn human rights abuses. Look up suicide nets. Look up the human rights abuses in North Africa due to the boom in mining trade.

I am unable to find foxconn death and rape camps on google.

edit:

In America or in North Korea?

Cause they exist in both.


This came across my RSS feed this morning:


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...overty?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard

Uh nevermind, I think I have enough bizarro-GAF for today.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

I can't control where or how cell phones are made. I can control whether or not I give money to the DPRK. But continue on with your false equivalencies. You're on a roll.

You give money to organizations that commit human rights abuses all the time.

I don't think you're to blame for it no more than OP is to blame for wanting to meet and interact with people who are being forced into isolation.

The North Korea regime wants their people to be kept ignorant of the world and your attitude is completely in line with that. Think about that.

 

[LookAtMeGo]

It's not like NK is Jamaica or some other country that has a booming tourist industry. We're talking about probably a dozen western tourists at any given time, all under constant surveillance.

I guess that would make it easier for sure. It just sounds so crazy to me. Ill admit I'm ignorant on the subject but I am interested in learning more.

Are there any good sources from people who made it behind the scenes over there and documented it I could read about?

 

[BronsonLee]

They put nets on the outside of the rooftop bar I go to a lot just in case people fall over

 

[RoyalFool]

So do you think the people there know it's all a charade, and the guides just put on a brave face and lie because they want to believe it, and want to live the best they can.

Or do they honestly, hand on heart believe the country is great?

The people working the fake 'tour' factories, what goes through their mind as they load and unload the same box over and over day after day.

It's the one thing I really want to know, but there is simply know way of finding out

 

[Ferrio]

When NK falls, the shit we'll uncover will rival WWII Germany guaranteed. It may not go as far as gas chambers and ovens, but it won't be pretty.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

You're literally shitting on the OP

 

[Krejlooc]

You're literally shitting on the OP for daring to go to North Korea and interacting with the people there. Instead your policy is that we should wall them off.

He didn't "interact with the people there." He gave money to the North Korean government, and got to watch some puppets dance for his amusement. This dude was not sneaking into the North Korean countryside to interact with locals (nor should he have). You're elevating his human-zoo vacation to some sort of humanitarian excursion which is gross.

 

[Poohblaster]

In America or in North Korea?

Cause they exist in both.




This came across my RSS feed this morning:


https://www.theguardian.com/us-news...overty?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Copy_to_clipboard





Literal starvation in your own country but it's not some third world boogeyman. Yet people are perfectly fine keeping the status quo here, but want to wall off North Korea and hole them up and make the situation for them even worse.

Can I get sent to American concentration camp for liking Shenmue?

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

I am unable to find foxconn death and rape camps on google.

https://www.google.com/search?sourc... rights abuses&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.2720j0j7


https://www.google.com/search?espv=...1...35i39k1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i20k1.02uSZe_kQqM


https://www.google.com/search?espv=...1j0i67k1j0i131k1j0i20k1j0i22i30k1.QCcZJi9L5O0

 

[MikeHattsu]

I mean, not to downplay the severity of your first statement or compare the treatment of HK incarceration, but your latter statement definitely has some hard numbers that you may not want to marginalize.

He's being sarcastic and using US whataboutism...

 

[BronsonLee]

So do you think the people there know it's all a charade, and the guides just put on a brave face and lie because they want to believe it, and want to live the best they can.

Or do they honestly, hand on heart believe the country is great?

It's the one thing I really want to know, but there is simply know way of finding out

Almost assuredly the latter. From any/all North Korean documentaries I've seen, their citizens are heaaaaaaavily indoctrinated. They put up with things that'd make you and me kick someone right in the balls.

 

[NH Apache]

Reading this thread, I feel like I'm taking crazy pills.

 

[nynt9]

No one is defending North Korea. North Korea is awful.

It's not false equivalences. North Korea doesn't have a monopoly on human rights abuses and no one in this thread who says they actually care about human rights abuses actually care about them. They just want to join in the political theater and rail against a boogeyman.

Ok but what's your point though? "Leave poor North Korea alone"?

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

He didn't "interact with the people there." He gave money to the North Korean government, and got to watch some puppets dance for his amusement. This dude was not sneaking into the North Korean countryside to interact with locals (nor should he have). You're elevating his human-zoo vacation to some sort of humanitarian excursion which is gross.

You're equating North Korean people to animals now.

 

[Fenderputty]

You give money to organizations that commit human rights abuses all the time.

I don't think you're to blame for it no more than OP is to blame for wanting to meet and interact with people who are being forced into isolation.

The North Korea regime wants their people to be kept ignorant of the world and your attitude is completely in line with that. Think about that.

Are we gonna go around in a circles here? I need a cell phone I don't need to go on a NK tour. You're also ignoring scale in your equivalency.

Furthermore I don't want people to be ignorant of NK. I'm literally arguing that going on some fake guided tour is aiding in the ignorance.

 

[Hello? This is Hailun!]

Ok but what's your point though?

People who go to North Korea to normalize person to person relations are doing more good than harm and people should get off their high horse.

North Korea should be flooded with aid, should be flooded with interaction and accessibility to the international markets, goods, etc, to see how the rest of the normal world lives. Walling them off does nothing.

But no one wants to do that. We want to humanely bomb them. Or humanely cut off their access to the international market. Or humanely sanction food exports to them.

Furthermore I don't want people to be ignorant of NK.

No one is ignorant about what is going on in NK.

 

[Kill Your Masters]

Ok but what's your point though? "Leave poor North Korea alone"?

#AllCountriesMatter

#NotAllDeathCamps

 

[kingkitty]

When NK falls, the shit we'll uncover will rival WWII Germany guaranteed.

if NK falls in our lifetime, no doubt we'll discover some horrific shit

and to have someone in this thread downplay and deflect these camps, it's staggering

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

You're equating North Korean people to animals now.

Man, you just keeping ramping it up, don't you?

 

[SuperBanana]

He didn't "interact with the people there." He gave money to the North Korean government, and got to watch some puppets dance for his amusement. This dude was not sneaking into the North Korean countryside to interact with locals (nor should he have). You're elevating his human-zoo vacation to some sort of humanitarian excursion which is gross.

NK is extremely cheap. Barely any of the money went to the government. The majority went to China, the tour company, the tour guides, and gifts/tips for locals who help out. Many of the "puppets" soley reply on tourist tips as a source of income.

 

[Krejlooc]

You're equating North Korean people to animals now.

No, I'm not.

 

[doctorblurg]

You're equating North Korean people to animals now.

no they're not, they're speaking on how everything OP saw was a manufactured play to make NK not seem so bad. The people he saw were there solely to make a good appearance to foreigners

 

[Fenderputty]

No one is ignorant about what is going on in NK.

Are we reading the same thread? The OP is drinking the kool-aid and saying "it's not as poor as it's made out to be" and people are saying "cool pics OP, super interesting" as if the information learned on the tours inst' readily available and completely falsified.