Fenderputty
Banned
Posting, "the country isn't as poor as I thought it would have been" on GAF is exactly what the DPRK wants him to do after this "tour"
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I took a trip to North Korea. (Pic heavy)
- Thread starter SuperBanana
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Posting, "the country isn't as poor as I thought it would have been" on GAF is exactly what the DPRK wants him to do after this "tour"
Paid guided tours aren't exactly "traveling outside your country". You're paying for a vanilla, easily consumable commoditization of whats really there.
In this case, it's full blow propaganda. You didn't see NK, you saw what a strictly controlled group allowed you to see.
Going to Disney world isn't showing you "what Florida is like", let alone what the United States is like.
If you want to experience other cultures, ditch the group tours. Especially the ones in facist dictatorships that threaten you with violence for stepping on the wrong grass.
stufte
Member
It's saying that propaganda is powerful and NK has propaganda very similar to what the Nazis used. It's not saying you're a nazi, it was to highlight the similarities of the propaganda.
Dreams-Visions
Member
With so much information being out and readily available about NK and its conditions from people who lived there and escaped to tell the story, you'll have to forgive people for a lack of patience with westerners who should be intelligent enough to know better taking a guided tour that we've all seen others take before and drinking any portion of the kook aid. As if what they have seen is a reflection of life for people in NK rather than seeing it for what it is: a well-curated propaganda experience best taken in as a cautionary take of what decades of oppression, brain washing and fear can breed.
"It's not so bad" is like saying the planet isn't warming because there's been a nip in the morning air this week. The longer you fight on that hill, the faster people will lose their patience with you. The irritation with the OP is of his own doing secondary to his own pride and defensive instinct. He believed his lying eyes and complicated the matter with doomed analogues, embarrassing arguments, and ridiculous comparisons (NYC, Detroit). All because of a refusal to not believe his lying eyes, but the volumes of information about what we know about NK outside of the tourism routes.
Everyone saw it. People are focused like a laser on the comments that "things aren't so bad" and the bizarre defense mechanisms being called out on his limited experience seemed to have invoked in him. He spent 5 minutes in NK and is ready to make positive pronouncements on the conditions of the state. But that couldn't have been influenced by propaganda, goodness no!
The Omega Man
Member
Ahahahahahahaha
I've lived in 3 different continents, I speak 4 different languages and I am an expat living in a different country with a different language I was born and raised in, I am also married to a woman from a different country than mine, but hey you think you are the cool and only one leaving in some foreign land were a different language is spoken, learning so much and experiencing so much that the rest of civilization don't even dream of because you are the only traveled person here.
you are full of crap buddy.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
The problem people have is you cant take North Korea at face value and you went their without having(as far as I can tell) studied or taken a course on North Korea. Without prior knowledge on the matter what your seeing can be quite deceptive.
CloudyTuba
Member
I think it's dumb to suggest stuff like the kids were planted and waiting for you to pass.
But it would be reasonable to assume that the quality of life people enjoy along your tour path is significantly greater than what is actually the norm, and that it is part of the plan.
People aren't equating you to a Nazi.
People aren't being obtuse to your position on NK.
You just seem to be completely oblivious regarding the parts and purpose of your trip.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
What the...? Are you serious? Of course not. Your reading comprehension must be really atrocious for you to think that.
That post was not comparing you to a nazi. It was comparing you to someone who would be fooled by nazi propaganda. Do you really not see how that is hugely different or are you just interesting in creating an absurd persecution complex?
Not saying you are wrong but most people in Kathmandu (Nepal for geographically challenged) have smart phones but don't have electricity for large portions of the day. Lack of reliable infrastructure doesn't mean people can't have phones, I'm sure many other developing countries are similar. N Korea is a different case from the rest of the world of course, but again just saying your argument here doesn't hold any water.
SuperBanana
Banned
Which is what I've said....like, the entire time.
SuperBanana
Banned
If it was a satire of Nazi Berlin with a "friendly" nazi tour guide maybe. Not be gleefully taking photos of a gas chamber and starving Jews while I dine with SS officers. That's pretty clear what it's implying.
Baldwin_the_First
Member
Damn. That was heartbreaking.
LookAtMeGo
Member
Im watching a documentary about the propaganda machine there now. Quite fascinating stuff. The funeral scene for Kim Jong 1. Damn.
UnObtainium17
Member
MrCunningham
Member
Vacationing to North Korea really is like visiting a theme park. A disturbing theme park where you get lead around to designated spots and you aren't really allowed to touch anything.
Nice pictures.
Can't understand why people are attacking the OP (i guess NK is a sensible topic here because of their government) , he is only telling how he felt through his travel and seems to be honest on it which is different to say how NK truly is.
Obviously it's a controlled visit which means something can be very wrong there, by logic if there wasn't any problem it wouldn't be necessary any kind of control, but some of the things they are trying to hide are just dumb, for example the photo on supermarket that someone posted here is not even a big deal , but becomes one because it's prohibited by them so some of it seems like excessive control.
Can't understand why people are attacking the OP (i guess NK is a sensible topic here because of their government) , he is only telling how he felt through his travel and seems to be honest on it which is different to say how NK truly is.
Obviously it's a controlled visit which means something can be very wrong there, by logic if there wasn't any problem it wouldn't be necessary any kind of control, but some of the things they are trying to hide are just dumb, for example the photo on supermarket that someone posted here is not even a big deal , but becomes one because it's prohibited by them so some of it seems like excessive control.
orthodoxy1095
Banned
Oh I'm sure someone would go there, get their orifices searched, drive past Palestinian slums and Israeli settlements and then try to preach to us about how the Israeli government "isn't as bad" as they thought.
infinitys_7th
Member
Honestly this crossed my mind as well.
That's why the friendly guide seems like such BS - a whole country dedicated to keeping almost everyone unexposed to western culture has someone who vocally wants to go to Australia be a guide?
The spy thing makes sense - attractive, intelligent, charismatic.
She most likely wasn't a spy. Just there to do exactly what op said, make NK look accepting of different opinions.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
Reading this post and then reading the OP filled me with a sense of sadness
If it makes you feel better quite a few North Koreans are not as propaganda filled as it seems since as I mentioned the government has lost quite a bit of their previous area of influenced. Officials outside of the city have no real loyalty to the main government and its been reported many outside of the cities are highly critical of the government includong the military and the north korean government cant do a damn thing about it. Pyongyang is probably the most indoctronated part of North Korea.
Incredibly sobering ted talk
wow. Thanks for sharing.edit: for anyone else watching, subtitles can be turned on
Check out their website.
Full of fun stuff and news.
He's cured cancer, Aids, Multiple Sclerosis, Ebola and more.
He also uses pictures of these nice tours with visitors to prove that everyone admires and loves North Korea.
Their propaganda mixed with the tons of atrocities are disgusting.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
read 8 pages before realizing i turned into a warzone
Necromanti
Member
We're in the DMZ while the South Korean and North Korean propaganda machines fight for supremacy.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
No, it was using hyperbole to show what a gullible tourist visiting nazi Germany might think, but with real pictures of the atrocities as contrast to show just how gullible that hypothetical tourist would be.
I'm not surprised you missed the point and prefer to act all indignant though.
DukeLongfellow
Member
The fascinating thing about people complaining about tourists actually going to North Korea is the thought that they are "supporting the regime by giving them money". The money NK gets from this is peanuts. The number of tourists is extremely low all year long anyway and is really only "open" during the Mass Games period. NK mostly doesn't even feel it from a financial standpoint.
The fact that there are people who think that visiting a country to gain a bigger understanding of the different and the unknown (which was the purpose of OPs trip)=supporting death camps and absolutist regimes is ludicrous. That type of moral dilemma just doesn't apply here.
The fact that there are people who think that visiting a country to gain a bigger understanding of the different and the unknown (which was the purpose of OPs trip)=supporting death camps and absolutist regimes is ludicrous. That type of moral dilemma just doesn't apply here.
Dreams-Visions
Member
What to believe. This or Bananas lying eyes.
Really the torture described was awful. Glad she found her sister.
SuperBanana
Banned
I left with a deeper understand of what's wrong with North Korea. How badly the goverments grip is. And a sadness for its citizens. GAF is literally the only place I've posted my trip where people are so so desperat to act like I've been only filled with lies and trained to spread propaganda.
Congratulations on support a horrible, tyrannical regime by popping over on your hollibobs to take a few pics to satisfy your curiosity.
I swear these people who come on here and post about their NK visits are brainwashed to some degree. There's a member called Chichagong or something who went there and could barely bring himself to say a bad word about the country. There's always this sense of "I know some people say it's a terrible place, but it was all right actually." Let's ignore the death camps, the propaganda, the constant nuclear threats to enemies and ego-induced famine and poverty.
Read Barbara Demick's Nothing to Envy and tell me NK is a lovely place. It isn't.
I swear these people who come on here and post about their NK visits are brainwashed to some degree. There's a member called Chichagong or something who went there and could barely bring himself to say a bad word about the country. There's always this sense of "I know some people say it's a terrible place, but it was all right actually." Let's ignore the death camps, the propaganda, the constant nuclear threats to enemies and ego-induced famine and poverty.
Read Barbara Demick's Nothing to Envy and tell me NK is a lovely place. It isn't.
SuperBanana
Banned
Much easier to visit nk according to a guy on the trip who went there.
A friend asked if I wanted to go. I was traveling to America for 6 weeks and he wanted to do Asia. It was the one chance I ever will so I took it.
petran79
Banned
When I was young we used to drive through Socialist Yugoslavia. There was a tree and they said this was the tree where Tito took a piss, so it was monumental spot!
Also my parents had traveled to some of the socialist countries. I was 5 years old and we travelled by plane to Moscow in the mid-80s and bought a portable B/W TV. I remember Misha the Olympic mascot. Also I met a colleague who did study Physical Education in Yugoslavia in the 80s. Regarding sports that country was far ahead but it lacked in many issues.
Even in the 80s, those countries despite the troubles and authoritarianism were much better off and more open-minded than N.Korea is today. In Romania things were much worse though. People looked visitors eagerly, trying to leave. But there were the ones who wanted to take advantage of tourists. My parents told me that in Romania one guy gave them fake money in exchange rate. In order to get it back another guy told them to give him cassete tapes with Greek music. He kept his promise!
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
Who care if it's true ? I am pretty sure that NK is not as poor as it was during the big famine of the 90's. Even the worst dictature will always prefer that the general population don't starve.
When he speak about the pro-regime guide calling him names and stuff, and saying that the people is really greater than the regime, is not really giving a good press to the regime in itself.
If you think that this:
Is a praise of NK government, you really need to actually speak to an NK apologist.
North Korea doesn't allow travel between cities for fear of revolution, and it's people eat tree bark. You think North Korean citizens have smart phones?
DreadfulOmen
Member
What was the overall tone of the people? Did you feel like they were all unhappy? Do you think that if they had a choice to leave they would? Besides your group did you see any other tourist there?
Now go read Nothing to Envy when one of the refugees talks about the day that happened, and how she was terrified because she couldn't cry on command. She thought she was going to be taken away by the state.
That's it? Such a weird place to go when you're plunking down that much money. How do you even go about arranging that?
Because it's funding NK leadership and contributing to the propaganda they push, all while people are suffering. The whole point is to bring in revenue and send people away thinking "it ain't so bad".
Whenever I see pictures of NK, I see a cardboard cutout of a country. Empty and seldom used.
thesoapster
Member
The shots of the city streets always get me. They're almost always empty or nearly empty.
No. I'm saying your logical argument that if people don't have power for much of the day then means that they can't have smartphones. That argument doesn't make any sense. N Korea is a whole different beast, but just making up random illogical arguments to get your point across is dumb. I'm fairly certain most people there live a shitty poor life and don't have smartphones, but it's got nothing to do with how often they have electricity.
SuperBanana
Banned
He's traveled almost everywhere and likes obscure places. I like weird and unique experiences and a high curiosity of things. It fitted.
This is a US based forum, the US of A has done more harm than NK leadership could ever dream of but I don't see the same reactions to the US.
The reaction of team outrage is blatently hypocritical at best.
Hell there are people on this very forum that complained about my trip to Russia lmao
stan423321
Member
I'm living in the ex-Soviet bloc and I don't need to be in a particular place to point at an obvious possible mechanism for improving one's PR. Ignore any references to North Korea on that page, by the way, if it helps you.
It's been done. Maybe it's regret that's reinforcing the thought that it hasn't been done there, maybe it's just the slickness of presentation that got to you. "You gotta go there to know"? Come on, the whole point is that going there tells you nothing. Nothing! Nothing at all!
Honestly there's only one way to know for sure what's happening here, and that's throwing them a surprise visit at surprise place. I am not saying you should do it. I am saying that going where they'll know you come is equivalent to, I don't know, checking the one known cave exit while in a cave to confirm world is destroyed by "Kuppelweiser radiation" just like your teacher said it is. Except the other way around.
stufte
Member
Yah, no one ever complains about the horrid things the US government has done on this forum. NEVER.
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