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I took a trip to North Korea. (Pic heavy)
- Thread starter SuperBanana
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Do you have some actual proof for this statement? For example, tourism from western countries to North Korea is like in the low thousands (about 2,000) a year.
Compared to tourism to U.S 64 million a year, Iran's 2 million a year, and 36 million to UK.
What you are saying makes no sense and completely different in nature anyways, as you are watched through your entire tour and have severely restricted movement. I get what you are trying to say, but the comparison is invalid due to that and one could say the same for touring other countries. The difference is, those other countries are not going to hold you there (and if you were to get in trouble, you have representation via your original country) for minor stupid actions such as stealing a poster.
My whole take on your trip is not positive since you just took the standard trip most other tourist do. There was nothing new of substance and you learned nothing from it. You also took the words of local North Koreans to "debunk" the inaccurate articles about North Korea is also weird to me (especially since you do not state you deviated from the scripted areas). Pictures are indeed restricted and you have to smuggle them out if you took them where you weren't suppose to.
To others
The comparison to U.S issues is silly. I agree with you on U.S's torture/Guantanamo bay, but I disagree with using U.S incompetence on the Iraq War as a comparison. In one, one is U.S policy in another U.S screwed up and resulted in a lot of deaths.
Same. I have a morbid curiosity with that country and would love to see the country for myself (even though the horror show is behind the scenes)
It's a fascinating country and I want to travel and see it and maybe talk to some of the people if they can/want.
However it's a bit tense right now and if they do hold your passport the entire duration of the trip it's a bit dodgy to say the least.
I'm mostly curious about the areas outside the tourist zones but it does look beautiful as a traveler to experience some of the locations in the pictures.
Maybe one day when things have calmed down a bit.
However it's a bit tense right now and if they do hold your passport the entire duration of the trip it's a bit dodgy to say the least.
I'm mostly curious about the areas outside the tourist zones but it does look beautiful as a traveler to experience some of the locations in the pictures.
Maybe one day when things have calmed down a bit.
Fried Food
Banned
Except you aren't actually seeing the real NK. Pretty much everything you saw was staged to look as good as possible.
This post is pretty telling. You would rather have a go at guy who is getting 15 yrs manual labor for stealing a poster then say how fucked up it is.
petran79
Banned
Countries like Qatar do the same actually if you want to apply for work. If something goes wrong and you want to leave, you are at the mercy of your employers or the emir.
Like someone else on here said, OP sounds incredibly gullible and is passing off parts of the charade as their unique insight into North Korea. Its basically like paying to go to a Nazi run theme park next to a concentration camp and then writing about how the Nazis aren't so bad.
Enter The 36 Chambers
Member
Don't let some of the posts on here get to you OP.
You had an incredibly rare opportunity to visit North Korea and you took it like most people would.
Some just prefer to be the moral high horse and tell our how bad a person you are. Ignore them.
Really Interesting pics and a fascinating read. Thanks for sharing.
You had an incredibly rare opportunity to visit North Korea and you took it like most people would.
Some just prefer to be the moral high horse and tell our how bad a person you are. Ignore them.
Really Interesting pics and a fascinating read. Thanks for sharing.
Sorry, I'm not generally against posts like this but you give no insights that haven't been already observed. You have just been a part in a tightly arranged propaganda tour, so you can tell everyone how well their beer is and what neat pictures you have taken there. Nothing of what gives you "a better understanding" about certain things.
heliosRAzi
Banned
They gave him a better understanding of what they want him to understand.
SuperBanana
Banned
Nah. Seen everything I want to see. You can create custom tours that go to different towns, areas, or try specific things but I don't need any more. I just wanted a taste of the bizarre. Apparently, 2 German guys wanted a custom tour where they just traveled on the subway to every single stop. Got off, took a few photos, and caught the next train. The guide said it was boring as hell but they loved it.
Yes, it was not smart of him to take the poster, assuming that he did (lots of people have just been kidnapped because they were needed as translators), but certainly you can see that the punishment does not fit the crime, right?
I typically respect different laws/punishments and had no problem when Singapore caned an American brat for vandalizing a bunch of cars. His punishment, while likely a bit excessive, did not ruin his life. 15 years of hard labor for stealing a poster, however, is not at all a rationale punishment. If your argument is that it's OK because he was stupid then think about how often all of us do stupid things. The world would be a lot shittier if doing something stupid (that doesn't really harm anyone) led to 15 years of hard labor. That's dystopian , not justice.
ElectricBlanketFire
Member
Don't worry, they aren't.
SuperBanana
Banned
Of course it doesn't.
Fair enough. I still commend you for taking the trip and sharing your experience with us.
Lastly, Germans love their dose of train simulator, so who knows maybe they were researching for the next World of Subways... in DPRK.
SuperBanana
Banned
You can request some really weird stuff. An American Christian family went and requested a mass...I don't know why. So NK actually got a priest(from China?) and filled a church(which they have because of the illusion of religious freedom) with fake people so it was a full, christian mass with North Koreans and Chinese priest. Just depends how much you want to pay I guess.
Kralamoonard
Member
Thank you OP for sharing this - I do feel some people are being a bit too judgmental about you here and are missing out on some nuance, as if it's black and white (not about that le situation itself mind you - that's obvious but about WHY you visitors) - I feel they project their feelings (which are valid) on to you and deal in extremes, and have to realise not everyone is the same.
It's hard to explain but it's the same thing people told me when I wanted to go on holiday to Turkey with my friends as I've always wanted to go and have a good time after my exams and people starting projecting their political opinions on to me. I just want to relax and wind down on the beach -- if we were to boycott countries based on governments doing messed up shady things, then we wouldn't travel to 90% of the countries in the world. I know some Iraqi's who would never step one foot in the US (and I mention that because I assume most of GAF are from there), yet I wouldn't judge them for their choices as they have their own reasons, and similarly, they wouldn't judge me from going there either (I've personally always wanted to go to the US myself!).
I feel people need a wider view of the outside world and not just deal with jumping instantly to no as an answer based on what they read all the time (which is not to say it isn't true but it's not the only thing to factor when wanting to travel).
Thanks again for giving us a perspective - it's definitely interesting. I personally wouldn't go because I don't think I'd enjoy it but you do you OP.
It's hard to explain but it's the same thing people told me when I wanted to go on holiday to Turkey with my friends as I've always wanted to go and have a good time after my exams and people starting projecting their political opinions on to me. I just want to relax and wind down on the beach -- if we were to boycott countries based on governments doing messed up shady things, then we wouldn't travel to 90% of the countries in the world. I know some Iraqi's who would never step one foot in the US (and I mention that because I assume most of GAF are from there), yet I wouldn't judge them for their choices as they have their own reasons, and similarly, they wouldn't judge me from going there either (I've personally always wanted to go to the US myself!).
I feel people need a wider view of the outside world and not just deal with jumping instantly to no as an answer based on what they read all the time (which is not to say it isn't true but it's not the only thing to factor when wanting to travel).
Thanks again for giving us a perspective - it's definitely interesting. I personally wouldn't go because I don't think I'd enjoy it but you do you OP.
Yep saw it but i don't think it's relevant in a global scale and we're still discussing it , most people in the world seems to think NK is problematic and i don't see it changing anytime soon.
Most money they make with tourism seems to come from Chinese tourists , more or less 6000 people excluding Chinese visit there each year.
Here an article over tourism in NK , notice the guy is well aware how problematic the country is and how go there can be controversial.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/travel/d.../why-tourists-should-still-go-to-north-korea/
Don't you find this rather hypocritical for you to say after you admitted to stealing NK currency when you weren't suppose to?
We could have just as easily been reading a news report about ANOTHER 20-something year old being held for stealing things from the DPRK! You and poster boy could have been roomies at the hard labor camp on some trumped up charges for petty crimes.
It's not about money. The photos from the NK tours have been spread across Internet blogs and social media as the definitive look of quaint, weird (but not horribly bad!) North Korea. My first impression of NK was a photo blog similar to the OPs where I thought it was a strange place but also kind-of-nice, fun in the quirky old-fashioned way that Havana, Cuba still has all those 60s cars. I had no idea of the fake towns, actors, spies, kidnappings, torture, assassinations, prison camps, crushing poverty and starvation, lack of basic everyday stuff and electricity, etc. This tour has worked at accomplishing its mission, which again, is not pulling in big revenue. They know the people who visit are pretty affluent and "worldly" individuals who will eagerly spread the word and photos of their neat little adventure to all their friends, family and social media contacts. It's a propaganda dissemination tool, plain and simple.
Well put.
If say NK was on the verge of facing a new round of sanctions for nuclear weapons and missiles' testing at the time you made your trip, it could have very easily been you who would have been made an example of for being "foolish" enough to steal currency. Then we would have to read about others calling you a dummy for not following the rules. You're not understanding that any excuse would have sufficed because they were looking for the opportunity to detain someone at that specific time due to unrelated drama with the US, evident by the fact that people have done worse, more intrusive shit have not had any problems. If there was nothing to pinto you and they needed a prisoner, you would've been falsely accused with something, anything really... like being a spy based on so-called surveillance they observed of your suspicious behavior, reports of your pointed questions to the guide and any other shit they can claim as signs of undermining the regime.
Gonna pull this post from a page back because no one responded to it.
The only place in NK where this happened (note the past tense) is at KIR: https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Kaesong_Industrial_Region#/Kaesong_Industrial_Park
For 12 years, this industrial park operated and produced many things with money paid from the companies directly to NK, not to the workers.
In Feb of this year, it was shut down after SK shut it down after a missile test. NK got angry and said that they were shutting it down for good and confiscated all the equipment.
Here is a report that lists the manufacturers who were in the KIR (2011): https://www.fas.org/sgp/crs/row/RL34093.pdf
Majority of the products are watches, textiles, and clothing. There are some electronics makers for parts unknown. Samsung is NOT one of the companies but I do not have sources saying that they don't use parts from there; it is hard to prove a negative.
So, to rein in your rant a bit above:
Samsung was not one of the companies
The complex is now closed, due to a moral reasoning of a rocket launch.
Majority of the items were clothing.
Your cheap S Korean monitor most likely was not part of this.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
I thought they arrested people for leaving bibles and preaching... but they let people pretend to be religious?
Except ordinary Turkish people can hang out on the beach too, and as far as I know Turkey doesn't have concentration camps. OP is just presenting a propaganda tour they went on as if it was reality.
If they actually went to some random place in North Korea where ordinary people live and photographed it then that would be great.
scotcheggz
Member
Thanks for that, the report is particularly interesting. I'd actually forgotten that kaesong had been shut down until you posted this, now I remember it was in the news for being unstable for a while and then later shut down completely. Good call.
My interest in the DPRK has largely waned honestly. The last paper I wrote about the place was concerning the economic position and the effect of the revaluation in 2009 and so on, this was just after it happened, so I'm going back 6-7 years now... Fair play on the Samsung catch, I'm sure I read somewhere that they were actually making panels there at some point in the past but I'm willing to accept that I remember that wrongly.
I looked at the DPRK quite a bit during my postgrad, so sometimes these threads bring up old interests and I tend to rant, so I try to avoid posting. At least we've refrained from most of the "just nuke them" posts so far though haha.
Anyway, thanks for the corrections and the links, I'm going to read that report properly now, cheers.
SuperBanana
Banned
A lot of things in NK are "You can do it but not really". Sunday is the weekend there...buuut a good NK citizen will go to work anyway. You're a good citizen, right?
scotcheggz
Member
Here's Some quotes from the book "under the loving care of the fatherly leader" by Bradley K Martin concerning churches and religion:
"a visible change of questionable significance was construction of the first protestant and Catholic churches permitted to operate in Pyongyang in decades. In the early days of the North Korean communist regime, all the churches had been closed.. ..churches were regarded as symbols of imperialist oppression."
"There were no portraits of Kim or his son on the church walls and congregation members during services did not wear the miniature Kim portraits on their breasts. Perhaps this was for the benefit of us foreign visitors. I watched a man walk up the hill toward the church wearing his Kim badge, near the gate he turned and the badge was gone, discreetly pocketed."
"In an atmosphere so overwhelmingly hostile to competing religions or other different ideas, it was but a small change to have church buildings - not so much a real shift in domestic policy as a cosmetic ploy to influence public opinion abroad.. ..this attempt to show a tolerant attitude towards Christianity was intended to improve Pyongyang standing with the west."
And here's an interview with a defector from the same book:
"when Billy Graham visited north Korea, he returned and said Christianity is reviving. I'll tell you the real story of religious life in North Korea. There's absolutely no religion in North Korea. I saw so many people in camp who came in because of religious belief. Even secretly praying is enough to get you sent to camp. Probably everyone in North Korea who is a religious believer is sent to a camp."
So yeah, it seems like they let people pretend exactly. It goes on to explain more the benefit of this but I'm on my phone so I can't quote everything.
Katzenjammer
Member
Skimming through this thread has made me realize that North Korea is much worse than I had previously thought, and I've just purchased Nothing to Envy to learn more. I've also reflected a bit on the morality of going there as a tourist, which I hadn't really done before. So thanks OP and the rest who have been posting here.
EvilKatarn
Member
You should buy Escape From Camp 14 as well.
SuperBanana
Banned
They don't dig through your pockets of each clothing item when you leave. Customs is easier and more relaxed than Australia or America. The guide said it's fine so everyone took a note or two with them. This guy managers a company that goes to some of the most wild countries in the world(Afghanistan, Iran, Chernobyl, ect) and has gone to NK 60 times or more. If he says do it, you can do it. If he says don't do it, you don't do it. People exaggerate a lot when it comes to the way NK acts towards visitors. I thought the same way as you but the customs people are more curious of what you have than wanting to throw you in jail. These questions were asked to the main western guide(not the north koreans) who told us we'll be fine and you won't get tossed away for taking the wrong photo or having a NK note which are sold in SK and China anyway as souvenirs. They go hard after you if you seriously disrespect them or break a law. If you do one of those, the guides cash in all their good will to get you out of it.
And maybe a bottle of whiskey and a carton of cigarettes.
scotcheggz
Member
AHHHH THIS FUCKIN BOOK! you won't learn much from that book. The 1 star reviews on amazon are pretty accurate, despite being the minority. It is far too coloured by her own cultural biases and fictional, badly written nonsense. Yet still it sells and sells. Second time i've seen it mentioned in this thread, second rant I've had about it haha...
If you're interested after reading it, look elsewhere for a better and more useful read. The best starting place imo for reading on NK is the book my quotes above are from, it' really is more or less the defacto primer. "Under the loving care of the fatherly leader: North Korea and the Kim dynasty" by Bradley K Martin.
Theres a few others too, but they become more specialised into different areas, wheras the Bradley K Martin book is a good ovierview and despite its size and depth, its written in a way that makes it not overly heavy reading.
Team Filler
Member
I think it is fucking gross to see so many people supporting and defending the OP. Between this and that article about the West Virginia cop being fired, man...
There are 5 (out of 1313 total, so "minority" is an understatement) one star reviews.
Only one one star review appears to be coherent, the rest are either miscategorized or are off-topic complaints (author using swear words, another admits to not having read the book).
You can do better than a couple sentences criticizing the author for flowery language and cultural biases.
Its that posters schtick. Its not even the first time they have posted it in this thread.
The book is great and highly recommended.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Ah yeah the guide said it was going to be fine, so surely they would not lock you up for a tiny little infraction like that. Surely that guide is trustworthy.
It's not like it's North Korea or anyth.... waiiiiit
Team Filler
Member
The only positive I can take from this thread is that it reminded me I need to finish reading Nothing to Envy by Barbara Demick.
Astral Dog
Member
saw a mod mention Nothing to Envy a few pages looks pretty interesting now i want to learn more.
SuperBanana
Banned
Yeah, you're right. I mean just look at all the people arrested who've gone on those tours...oh wait.
Does anyone think about what Korea would be like if the UN and US hadn't intervened in the Soviet and Chinese backed invasion? Millions would not have died in that war, and I highly doubt the entire peninsula would be the cult that is north Korea. The Chinese and Russians would have continued to have developed the entire peninsula and you'd probably have a fairly modern Chinese proxy state, instead of half of it being a cult state. I honestly don't know if not having an independent south Korea would be better or worse, but the peninsula should have never been divided after WWII as a result of Soviet and US ambitions. The NK invasion that started the korean war was an attempt at reunification after their country was pointlessly divided by the US and Russia after kicking out the Japanese.
Russia is mainly to blame though for strongly opposing UN and US plans for a unified peninsula after WWII to begin with though. The current set up is a result of a terrible proxy war between the Soviets and US after WWII. And though the Soviets were wrong to begin with, I don't know that the US reaction of heavily responding with military intervention and essentially ensuring a continued divided state was for the best. Probably it was, to ensure a modern and Democratic south Korea, but the north kind of got fucked as a result because the Soviets and Chinese quickly pulled out support after the korean war effectively ended. Maybe they would have pulled out any way even if the NKs were successful in their invasion. Who knows. Revisionist history is kind of fun to think about.
Russia is mainly to blame though for strongly opposing UN and US plans for a unified peninsula after WWII to begin with though. The current set up is a result of a terrible proxy war between the Soviets and US after WWII. And though the Soviets were wrong to begin with, I don't know that the US reaction of heavily responding with military intervention and essentially ensuring a continued divided state was for the best. Probably it was, to ensure a modern and Democratic south Korea, but the north kind of got fucked as a result because the Soviets and Chinese quickly pulled out support after the korean war effectively ended. Maybe they would have pulled out any way even if the NKs were successful in their invasion. Who knows. Revisionist history is kind of fun to think about.
What do you mean, oh wait? There's only 1500 hundred western tourists per year: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/3113352.stm
It appears that at least one person from US, Canada, or Australia is arrested per year:
https://www.wikiwand.com/en/List_of_foreign_nationals_detained_in_North_Korea
So, that's 1:1500, minimum.
Comparing that to the US for example (2009 data):
1,534 Brits arrested in the US of 7.2 million Brits total.
https://www.gov.uk/government/uploa...oad_National_Press_Release_21_August_2009.pdf
That's more than 311% increase over "normal." Factoring in that this is arrests only (and most Brits are immediately released), if you are a westerner, with two exceptions, you are stuck in N Korea for at minimum 40 days.
So, at minimum, I would not hold that attitude about getting arrested in N. Korea.
SuperBanana
Banned
I'll still take the advice from a professional who runs a specialized business taking people to North Korea and other extreme locations around the world, has traveled there over 60 times, and has connections and friendly relations with officials and staff over the advice of Morrigan Stark, a random person on GAF who acts like they know far more about tours to North Korea.
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