stufte
Member
I've been to Casa Bonita.
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
I took a trip to North Korea. (Pic heavy)
- Thread starter SuperBanana
- Start date
- Status
I've been to Casa Bonita.
Thelonelykoopa
Member
Whenever I think of those tombs Im reminded at the lengths china went to perserve Mao`s body as they didnt have the perserving technology of the russians so they had to guesstimate everything .... you will never look at massages the same way again... A great read if you can ever find a paper dealing with the subject of Chairman Mao death and preservation.
When you visit North Korea you are not witnessing atrocities in the same vein that you are going to a reformed concentration camp ->museum or going to historical war sites.
You are actively obtaining entertainment and novelty purely of the facade laid before you and will never experience the slightest of some of the worst modern tragedies to mankind .It's also both a danger to your life and your stay will be used as both domestic and international propaganda.
You will be hand-held through some scenery,have your face stuffed with some food, fed some bullshit about the country/people/history, pat on the head, and shipped off home.
It's shouldn't be viewed as amusing or used as a set-piece to satisfy your curiosity.
You are actively obtaining entertainment and novelty purely of the facade laid before you and will never experience the slightest of some of the worst modern tragedies to mankind .It's also both a danger to your life and your stay will be used as both domestic and international propaganda.
You will be hand-held through some scenery,have your face stuffed with some food, fed some bullshit about the country/people/history, pat on the head, and shipped off home.
It's shouldn't be viewed as amusing or used as a set-piece to satisfy your curiosity.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Yes. Why?
heliosRAzi
Banned
Have you committed any atrocities before?
It's only a leap if you haven't read multiple stories by visitors to Pyongyang, which it seems you didn't do before going to learn for yourself. I've read four or five Western accounts, ranging from tourists to professionals that worked in Pyongyang. Yours reads nearly identically to theirs, with the exception they were all aware that they were being led around by the nose to be shown what they were meant to see. They understood that their tour leaders were actually minders, entrusted by the NK government to show you only the best face of the regime. Because they remembered they were touring a totalitarian state where not genuflecting to Kim can get you put in a concentration camp, instead of having a happy fun time vacation in the midst of inhuman misery.
Wandering Robot
Member
Thank you for the post, OP. At the very least, you've dispelled others' curiosity; North Korea is an interesting country, but I don't think they even deserve the tourism...
As a side note, though, I wonder how people there respond to multiracial visitors?
As a side note, though, I wonder how people there respond to multiracial visitors?
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Just say directly whatever it is on your mind instead of trying to entrap him with some mind games for a GOTCHA moment dude, geeze, lol.
On topic: I wouldn't go even if the opportunity is offered, but I'd be lying to say if I don't find some of the photos as intriguing.
heliosRAzi
Banned
Whoa, dude. Just making a joke.
Wow, we're still bashing the OP for funding a dictatorship it seems....
Dude even mentions he knows if's 99% fake and people still act likes he's spouting propaganda.
It's fine to disagree with the OP about going to NK for moral reasons but do we really have to shame the OP for being curious? I've looked into doing one of the tours as well (Heck I was close to joining one, but it got cancelled due to the NK closing their borders because of the Ebola outbreak)
- All of these companies tell you before hand that the majority you're going to see is fake and an orchestrated tour by the government.
- Yes you can only take pictures in specific spots and guides will make sure you delete pics they don't approve of.
- Yes all of the people OP interacted with are there because they are forced to be there. BUT I would really like to know how everyone seems to know that every single living person OP came across is an actor because that seems to be something people just pulled from their asses. You can tell me the tour guides, the people in the stores and the people in/around the tourist places/monuments are fake/actors. But how do all of the naysayers know that people who are walking by (like a group of school kids) are also part of the act.
I know people are gonna link me to books to read and videos to watch from NK defectors about how bad it is. I've read and seen most of those.
OP and others are not denying any of that shit that's going on, nor handwaving how bad it must be outside of the on rails tour section he got to see.
But remember you are going with experienced tour companies (read up on Koryo tours for example, they've been doing it for ages and especially the founder has seen/experienced some crazy shit there) so they will probably inform you one stuff that's real/fake (even if there only might be 1% realness on the whole tour). Would still be really interesting to see it all and to hear the stories from the tour guides IMO.
And I'm not hating on people disagreeing with the OP in a normal manner but some people seem to just pull stuff out of thin air and accuse the OP of buying all the propaganda he was fed.
But I guess the chance for a normal discussion got killed before we got to page 2 on this thread...
Dude even mentions he knows if's 99% fake and people still act likes he's spouting propaganda.
It's fine to disagree with the OP about going to NK for moral reasons but do we really have to shame the OP for being curious? I've looked into doing one of the tours as well (Heck I was close to joining one, but it got cancelled due to the NK closing their borders because of the Ebola outbreak)
- All of these companies tell you before hand that the majority you're going to see is fake and an orchestrated tour by the government.
- Yes you can only take pictures in specific spots and guides will make sure you delete pics they don't approve of.
- Yes all of the people OP interacted with are there because they are forced to be there. BUT I would really like to know how everyone seems to know that every single living person OP came across is an actor because that seems to be something people just pulled from their asses. You can tell me the tour guides, the people in the stores and the people in/around the tourist places/monuments are fake/actors. But how do all of the naysayers know that people who are walking by (like a group of school kids) are also part of the act.
I know people are gonna link me to books to read and videos to watch from NK defectors about how bad it is. I've read and seen most of those.
OP and others are not denying any of that shit that's going on, nor handwaving how bad it must be outside of the on rails tour section he got to see.
But remember you are going with experienced tour companies (read up on Koryo tours for example, they've been doing it for ages and especially the founder has seen/experienced some crazy shit there) so they will probably inform you one stuff that's real/fake (even if there only might be 1% realness on the whole tour). Would still be really interesting to see it all and to hear the stories from the tour guides IMO.
And I'm not hating on people disagreeing with the OP in a normal manner but some people seem to just pull stuff out of thin air and accuse the OP of buying all the propaganda he was fed.
But I guess the chance for a normal discussion got killed before we got to page 2 on this thread...
Subpar Spatula
Banned
I can say I have.
Golden_Pigeon
Banned
I know the discussion is now going on from many pages, but don't reply if you catch it in the middle. It's pretty annoying.
He said that comparing drone strike made by the US and death camp in NK is absurd.
The thing is i wasn't even comparing at the first place but explaining why many people around the world would consider the US to be far worst. To understand why, just look at the iraqi invasion of 2003. A sovereign nation invaded and destroyed with forged evidence, bypassing the UN. Hundreds of thousands people dead.
Then he goes to say North Korea is not as poor as he thought, lol.
But I don't get this, the OP clearly states that he knows it's all fake. He's not suddenly a NK defender now, he just shared his experience of going on the guided group tour!
Him funding the regime is one thing, but the defending on DPRK, saying it's one the safest places to visit etc. not as poor as he thought, and all the posts saying USA = DPRK anyway so why do we care (or OP saying that the worst of DPRK is seen throughout Asia lmao) is something else.
It's pure propaganda, and I really feel like OP has no right to go on a guided tour of the privilege, look at the children of the elite and see their smiles, then use that to judge the whole country. If only OP got to tell the story of the other 90% of DPRK -- or the 12 million (50% of the population) who eat grass and tree bark, and sometimes the remains of loved ones to get by.
metalslimer
Member
I mean you obviously know what they show you is fake so why even bother with that NK isn't as bad as some think. We all know there are areas where the rich and elite do fine. Most of the country is horrifically poor and starving
Alebrije
Member
Like Mexico
NinjaMouse
Member
If you guys want more N. Korea, check out this guy's Youtube Channel:
https://www.youtube.com/user/FunForLouis
He's got a week or more of time there where they did some surfing class for the N. Koreans in one of the coastal towns. It's amazing how this guy takes the place and almost makes it look like a "Visit N. Korea!" travel ad. He took a lot of heat in some media outlets for basically falling right in to the propaganda machine. Some even suspected his trip was funded by the DPRK in order to make the place look good. I think the dude was pretty aware of things, though, and there are plenty of times he mentions how strange certain "normal" situations felt.
While I certainly don't agree with his happy go lucky portrayal of the place, I fully understand that he had to watch is tongue, at least while there, or else he could have probably landed himself in some nasty trouble.
Give it a watch, at least. If anything, you'll see more than the standard picture set everyone else seems to end up with.
His channel seems to bury them a bit in an "Asia" folder, so here's a link to the first one, and you can work up from there if you wish:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmCpTzA6SKc&index=53&list=PLKdBO8TXUFBg0OKDBf9E7vSfCVszzkAip
https://www.youtube.com/user/FunForLouis
He's got a week or more of time there where they did some surfing class for the N. Koreans in one of the coastal towns. It's amazing how this guy takes the place and almost makes it look like a "Visit N. Korea!" travel ad. He took a lot of heat in some media outlets for basically falling right in to the propaganda machine. Some even suspected his trip was funded by the DPRK in order to make the place look good. I think the dude was pretty aware of things, though, and there are plenty of times he mentions how strange certain "normal" situations felt.
While I certainly don't agree with his happy go lucky portrayal of the place, I fully understand that he had to watch is tongue, at least while there, or else he could have probably landed himself in some nasty trouble.
Give it a watch, at least. If anything, you'll see more than the standard picture set everyone else seems to end up with.
His channel seems to bury them a bit in an "Asia" folder, so here's a link to the first one, and you can work up from there if you wish:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmCpTzA6SKc&index=53&list=PLKdBO8TXUFBg0OKDBf9E7vSfCVszzkAip
I quoted you earlier on this and you might have missed it;
But I think that's the thing people are misinterpreting, he's not judging the whole country based on his highly guided/scripted tour. He's basically just retelling what he experienced.
He hasn't denied there being camps/atrocities or human rights violations.
TheSpoiler
Member
Dreams-Visions
Member
No. Stop. You really should have read the thread. You're not a light shining on some set of confused masses; we know what's going on. We've witnessed the apologizing.
There are some posts you've either missed or ignored. you should go read them if your intention is to discuss this further. His posts coupled with a few other very specific people are why the thread is where it is now. The turn it took towards whataboutism and suggesting NK is a safer experience than going to major US cities, or that a NK guided tour is a similar experience to what tourists going to NYC would experience should have been all you needed to know. That all we need to do is go visit them more and they'll find their way to normalcy. That it's the fault of the West that NK is declining food and are living in famine (when the real reason is because they don't want to give up their nuclear program). But again, maybe you missed them.
this.
Oh I saw that post. The point is, he started his post with literally saying "so what's wrong with visiting?" and came back with propaganda, saying "it isn't as bad as he thought". Regardless of what context this is supposed to mean, it's precisely why OP is getting shit.
Where are the posts saying "funding regime aside, this trip was a facade" -- is his OP telling us anything about how fake it actually was? Instead, it's showing the only positive thing DPRK has, which is that the elite have supermarkets.
Fenderputty
Banned
The only thing insightful about this thread is the depressing number of people finding the OP insightful.
I interpreted his reaction as the following:
I do think 99% of the stuff OP saw was fake/orchestrated BUT there's ofcourse a slight chance he saw some regular ass people who were going about their daily lives. Which he didn't get to interact with or talk to or get close to but who were still visible to him.
I think he was defending his point about gaining some insight (however small) from some of these non-scripted people or from the stories of his tour guide (the one from the Western company not the NK officials)
I think it's fair to be skeptical of a lot of media depictions of places you've never visited. Maybe there's some type or propaganda machine going on in your country for said place, who knows.
But when you go "eh, whatever" to a confirmed bugged room and the inability to keep your own passport, then yeah...
But when you go "eh, whatever" to a confirmed bugged room and the inability to keep your own passport, then yeah...
Dreams-Visions
Member
The number of people coming in now thinking they are prepared to explain to all of us what he really meant is pretty depressing too. Like, lul.
TheSpoiler
Member
Okay, now that you've somewhat read the OP's posts, you should read some other posts and inform yourself about the NK because you are already starting to drink that kool-aid.
Besides, let's not play the interpenetration card. It's lame and has hardly any ground. If the OP wants to clarify, he can do so himself. Otherwise there's no reason to play "this is what he REALLY meant" because it's a game of morphing his phrases to fit whatever narrative you so choose.
And sure, you could say "BUT SO ARE YOU". But I'd rather subscribe to his current rhetoric over having to pick out lines and pretend they mean something else.
metalslimer
Member
I mean this a regime with freaking concentration camps. It sucks to say but it really is like take a nice stroll through Nazi Germany and pretending it's not as bad as some say. Like I do agree that in the west we tend to pretend like certain areas (Iran for example) are horrific places to live with few redeeming qualities. But this is all goes out the window when it comes to NK.
Yes, he's retelling -- uncritically -- stories told him by the representatives of a totalitarian state. That's propaganda. And when you do that while simultaneously ignoring the reality of the horror of most lives in NK, you're spreading the government's propaganda for them. That's what people have a problem with, the OP's uncritical regurgitation of what his handlers told him.
Haven't read the whole thread, but yikes at thinking you actually mingled with the common people at any part of your trip. North Korea is like that guy who fucks a new girl every night and leaves every one of them thinking they're special. Until they all tell their stories and the pattern becomes obvious, of course.
But bro, they SAID his room wasn't bugged. And they made fun of the super duper brainwashed guy! And he could even go outside!
Paracelsus
Member
The part with "everything's free but you have to work all week for practically no money" is, despite what gaf wishes, what most likely the free world is gonna have to settle for in the close future if we don't want to see hundreds of thousands per country starving to death.
FireBeaver
Banned
TIL from this thread that the U.S is totally just as bad as North Korea. I mean have you seen the forced labor concentration camps around here?
/s
I have and I definitely do not agree with all his posts or with some of the other post by people defending NK or the OP.
But wait it is safer to visit, as in "statistically".
Seeing as you are on this handholding guided tour where you can't leave or do whatever you want: You won't get robbed, won't get hurt, won't get killed, etc.
(I know this is still not what you wanted to hear, but it is true)
The only major exception being if you even do one thing that they told you not to do, you're in deep shit. As in labor camp for a long as time or never leaving NK again.
But again "statistically" these cases happen so rare it's considered extremely unprobably to happen to anyone when doing the tour group (because most people aren't idiots and will not try and break the rules that have been laid out multiple times before and during the tour.)
Ofcourse I totally agree with you that saying this is anything like visiting the US is insane.
I'll stop defending the OP as it seems my interpretation of his words might be different from what you guys are getting out of the OP/his remarks.
Ok, my bad, my interpretation was a bit more mild than most of the people here.
I'll stop referring to it after this post
perfectchaos007
Member
And the guy who made the last North Korea fun trip thread came into this thread to insinuate that maybe just American's have a bad view on North Korea because America is North Korea's biggest enemy in all.
Subpar Spatula
Banned
Hard to say. You'd be surprised how some high security places can be pretty relaxed. I don't expect a poor dictatorship to be incredibly diligent. It's similar to thinking you're going to be overheard saying damning stuff at a casino or airport (where you're monitored a lot) but the higher ups just think, "that guys a dumb idiot".
Unless they think every tourist is a spy (which could be true then NK really does do its super due diligence).
Pancake Mix
Copied someone else's pancake recipe
Doesn't about 40 percent of the population get the Asian glow from consuming alcohol? Do they trade their 5 litres of beer for cash?
"Ain't so bad" is what they are going for. It, and the funding, are the only reasons the most isolated country in the world even allows these bullshit tours. They want westerners to think the regime isn't as bad as it seems when the reality is much worse.
I absolutely do not have to respect anyone that contributes to that shithole regime and I never attacked anyone.
Well, that and I find misery tourism to be revolting on a moral level. OP says Pyongyang wasn't as bad as he thought it was going to be but still describes a pretty awful place. That means OP expected something brutal and still wanted to go. The idea of explicitly supporting something like that - putting money in the hands of these people who oppress, specifically to witness the oppression first hand... it's really gross IMO.
That the propaganda actually took is like the crap cherry on the shit cake.
Someone can point to iphones all they want, the people who buy iphones don't buy them just to revel in the misery of the poor factory worker suffering to make it.
Ultimately, I see these types of topics in the same light I'd see a topic about a poster bragging about eating a gourmet meal made entirely of dolphin. It doesn't make me see the OP in some traveled, worldly light, it just makes me think they are bragging about doing something awful.
echoshifting
Banned
Haven't read the thread yet (I'm gonna since you're doing q&a), but just wanted to say this was a really interesting read, even if I'm skeptical of some of the details you were provided. Great pictures.
PassiveObserver
Member
Asian glow ain't stopping anyone from wanting to drink.
Fenderputty
Banned
The false equivalency and whataboutism is bad as well.
- Status