You're not looking into the eye of evil in NK when you go on a guided tour in the best part of the country. The eye of evil is the concentration camps they're keeping out of sight and in which you might be put into if you go prying long enough or break a law. If you need an adrenaline rush, just do some base jumping or something.
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I took a trip to North Korea. (Pic heavy)
- Thread starter SuperBanana
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You're not looking into the eye of evil in NK when you go on a guided tour in the best part of the country. The eye of evil is the concentration camps they're keeping out of sight and in which you might be put into if you go prying long enough or break a law. If you need an adrenaline rush, just do some base jumping or something.
Yeah I don't think people in the US realize how badly Iraq hurt (and is still hurting) the US's reputation internationally.
Morrigan Stark
Arrogant Smirk
Not to mention he says he did something similar (stealing currency) but, well, that doesn't count because reasons!
I'm going to be apologetic for my country and say no, definitely not the same thing as in China. You don't get minders in your trip, you can free roam and taxis go to airport because there are customers there. But yes Chinese are also very face-aware so to speak and tend to put the best image in front of foreigners, but far from the level of the North Koreans now (we did do some of the same stupid facade in the 70s when Nixon came here for example).
North Korea can be very nostalgic for the Chinese to travel. My dad doesn't want to and said 'who the hell wants to go back to the 70s?'
I myself am always fascinated by the country (I am a big fan of dystopian novels and totalitarian history) but it is also precisely the reason why I am not going there until a Berlin Wall like moment.
Now he just needs to counterfeit tons and tons of North Korean currency, float it over the border with balloons, and make all the North Korean people wealthy!
or destabilize their economy even more.
TheSpoiler
Member
Which ones?
Dynamite Shikoku
Congratulations, you really deserve it!
All the people thanking the op for his pics and saying they were glad he had a good time? I agree.
Astral Dog
Member
i hate how these dictatorships/countries are basically taking advantage of innocent gullible tourists like op to spread their disgusting propaganda just another way to exploit their own people and foreigners
chillybright
Banned
What the hell? Now I have seen something.
Not even on Chinese forums do posters apologize for North Korea or defend the ones that somehow do.
Not even on Chinese forums do posters apologize for North Korea or defend the ones that somehow do.
Wuthering_Heights
Banned
Thanks for the post and the pictures, OP. Very interesting.
I hope to visit some day, myself.
I hope to visit some day, myself.
TransTrender
Gold Member
Thanks OP that was neat!
I don't understand this. The Passport's not some magic piece of paper, if the NK authorities didn't want to let you leave having your passport on you probably wouldn't turn the tide, there's no US embassy or whatever you can get to, literally the only scenario you'd need it is where they wanted to hold you and you somehow escaped and fled to the Chinese border or some shit and couldn't get past their customs. SK, well, if you made it across the DMZ they'd probably detain you and bring you to their side and you could probably work things out. Maybe. I imagine you'd get a military response with or without a passport.
The only time I see a passport mattering is when you're in a country that somewhat respects people and law.
That said, I went to East Berlin when the wall was up when I was a child and it was an eye opening experience, one that I'm somewhat grateful for as it put life into perspective for me at such a young age, but I absolutely wouldn't go to NK.
I'm torn in the idea of visiting countries with terrible leaders like this. If you can spend money and legit help the local population I'm not sure it's a terrible thing, I think people meeting each other's a powerful thing. Propping up the regime seems like an obvious con but I wonder if the tourist industry in NK is a meaningful part of their budget in any way and considering how long they've been cut off from the world I'm not sure denying the people in NK that aren't in camps the chance to meet foreigners and pump up their local economy is outweighed by denying the ruling regime a little more money.
At this point in my life I think sanctions and isolation only work when the leader of said country gives something of a damn about his or her people and in North Korea's case I don't think that's the case.
SuperBanana
Banned
Not only is there video of it but the guy openly admitted it to the guide. The info I got was from the company that he was with, not the country. He fully knew what he did and why he was arrested. I'm sure he had no idea of the penalty though. It's not victim blaming.
Stealing political banners in a restricted area isn't the same as having a dollar worth of currency "forgotten" in your pocket. Even if they caught you you'd be fine. The guide wouldn't let you get arrested for that. They have a lot of good relations and influence. Had that guy told the guides about what he did he'd probably be home right now.
He told us stories of people doing things as bad or even worse than that America who they got home safely.
"It's not victim blaming, but if he hadn't done those very bad things and confessed to doing them immediately dear leader would have shown leniency on him."
Yeah it's ok just let it all out to the guide right now, people have done worse and gotten home safely.
Definitely not a possible way to sniff out if people are genuine in their feelings or spies.
Just like they put inactive bugs in your rooms for the massive amounts of celebrities who visit.
Nexus Zero
Member
You wouldn't believe how idiotic some people are. One of the clearest rules is "don't leave the fucking hotel unless it's with us" - what did I see a couple Americans do? Get escorted back in after a mornings jaunt round Pyongyang with a couple telephotos. Their guide got a proper red faced bollocking and might well have been landed in serious trouble after. It's simple to behave yourself and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if this guy did exactly what they say he did.
While I cannot agree with all the posters dissing the OP, it is amusing to see these accounts from a country that is essentially masters at brainwashing, lies, and propaganda. An entire country full of people are brainwashed on the regular. Surely they can handle 6 tourists from time to time
No one can prove what was real and what isn't, but I have no a doubt this entire trup was like an amusement park ride with everything carefully planned. Any anomalies you think you saw were probably the equivalent of the dude in the Mickey Mouse costume at Disneyland getting caught scratching his balls from time to time. Occasionally people will get caught off script, but there was definitely a script
Awesome OP though man. I'd visit in a heartbeat to see for myself
No one can prove what was real and what isn't, but I have no a doubt this entire trup was like an amusement park ride with everything carefully planned. Any anomalies you think you saw were probably the equivalent of the dude in the Mickey Mouse costume at Disneyland getting caught scratching his balls from time to time. Occasionally people will get caught off script, but there was definitely a script
Awesome OP though man. I'd visit in a heartbeat to see for myself
Supermanisdead
Member
i mean that guy was basically asking for 15 years hard labor
There's nothing wrong with going to the NK on one of these guided trips, but it is your duty to read up on the real conditions of the country and to look at what you're presented critically. If all you do is spread sunshine stories of how wonderful everything was you're playing along with the propaganda machine. I don't think you can claim it's morally wrong to pay them money for this experience, however. It's not a lot and at least it keeps a few people in solid work there.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I agree you can't trust the source.
I do personally think the American kid was foolish, stole something, and was guilty. It's not in NK's interest to arrest people on their tours (scares others off), and if they did frame the situation, they'd invent a more substantial charge than "stealing a banner".
Of course, the punishment does not fit the crime either.
SuperBanana
Banned
If you willingly go to a country like NK, walk into a restricted area, and attempt theft you aren't a victim. Even if it wasn't NK but ANY cou try if you commit a crime then you're not a victim. Wtf are you talking about? You're so eager to warp everything to your viewpoint you keep posting nonsense.
They did. He was tried for subversion, not stealing a banner. He was coerced into a confession, got a one hour trial, and was sentenced to fifteen years hard labor.
Here is his incredibly believable confession:
Yup, sounds like a freely obtained confession to me.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Point taken. I mean it's NK. I'm not surprised they'd make him into an enemy of the state.
But he did take the banner, yes? I think he did.
The North Koreans are fulla shit but Korea actually had metal movable type centuries before Gutenberg.
That's it. Everything else is propaganda. People in Pyongyang aren't "regular folk" - they're the richest and highest in the political class, which is sad considering how poor off they seem in contrast to other developed nations. This is also the same country that has a literal Potemkin village on the border
That's it. Everything else is propaganda. People in Pyongyang aren't "regular folk" - they're the richest and highest in the political class, which is sad considering how poor off they seem in contrast to other developed nations. This is also the same country that has a literal Potemkin village on the border
Hard to know. There's video, but it's a shadowy figure whose face is not clearly seen and his confession is clearly coerced, so maybe he did and maybe NK just needed a bargaining chip. It certainly wouldn't be outside of their standard operating procedure of creating a crisis so they can be paid to defuse it.
But without anything approaching a fair trial, and no ability to talk to him, no one here can really know.
...the guy is being sentenced to 15 years hard labor for stealing a poster. That is cruel and unusual punishment. He absolutely is a victim, even if he's a moron. Your perspective is warped. The punishment doesn't fit the crime, and he's going to under go human rights violations for what would be a slap on the wrist offense in any civilized nation. His "crime" is all sorts of trumped up. He is being used as a political prisoner.
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I suppose that's true. Not exactly due process.
Not getting into the main debate again because that's pointless.
But I do want to react to the "victim blaming" debate. Imo this is not victim blaming or not in a way that makes sense anyways.
Exhibit A(the classic one): Woman in hotpants and semi-transparent top walks home at night from the club, gets raped. Is blamed "well she shouldn't have dressed like a slut". That's basically the go-to example for victim blaming.
Exhibit B: (Foreign) Woman in hotpants and semi-transparent top walks around the main shopping street in Riyadh, gets arrested. That is just plain stupidity. Of course you can say "But there should not be oppression of what women want to wear" but that is such an illusion and stupid behaviour, because you can't expect a shithole like that to adhere to first-world-standards(when even many "first-world-countries" can't fully do that, hence why Exhibit A even exists in the first place). So when you knowingly go to such an extreme place and knowingly dress in that way you know you will be arrested and then get arrested, your own stupidity imo outweighs any position of "victim blaming".
And of course the process and punishment itself were a joke and a political move because I think just a few days before sanctions were hardened.
But I do want to react to the "victim blaming" debate. Imo this is not victim blaming or not in a way that makes sense anyways.
Exhibit A(the classic one): Woman in hotpants and semi-transparent top walks home at night from the club, gets raped. Is blamed "well she shouldn't have dressed like a slut". That's basically the go-to example for victim blaming.
Exhibit B: (Foreign) Woman in hotpants and semi-transparent top walks around the main shopping street in Riyadh, gets arrested. That is just plain stupidity. Of course you can say "But there should not be oppression of what women want to wear" but that is such an illusion and stupid behaviour, because you can't expect a shithole like that to adhere to first-world-standards(when even many "first-world-countries" can't fully do that, hence why Exhibit A even exists in the first place). So when you knowingly go to such an extreme place and knowingly dress in that way you know you will be arrested and then get arrested, your own stupidity imo outweighs any position of "victim blaming".
And of course the process and punishment itself were a joke and a political move because I think just a few days before sanctions were hardened.
He's going to a manual labor camp - essentially a concentration camp. Yes, for 15 years, although North Korean experts expect he'll be used as some sort of bargaining chip and could maybe get out in like 3 or 4 years.
If he went to one of the proper camps, why would they let him free again? I thought they don't want anyone being able to tell they exist / how they are like.
He's not going to a gulag where they purge political dissenters, he's going to a manual labor camp that North Korea freely admits exist.
SuperBanana
Banned
You know what you're getting into when you go. You don't accidentally stumble into NK. It's a risk and one that you should be mature enough to handle when you go. This guy was obviously not. It's like going with a zoo keeper inside a lions den, running over to the lions and try to take its food, then get upset that it mauled you.
Might as well have been a big red button saying "Don't push" and he pushed it.
So basically, you're cool with whatever punishment North Korea inflicts, even when there is no due process, over any minor transgression?
And, again, this trip was supposedly about you gaining insight?
BocoDragon
or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Going into NK on a tour and stealing something is incredibly dumb, even if NK is the one in the wrong for detaining and imprisoning someone 15 years hard labor over something so small.
Well. They said he was, but usually white foreigners don't wind up in the labor camps. If they hold to their history, he'll be locked in the same hotel and fed a healthy but minimal diet and left alone until someone with juice from the U.S. comes and cuts a deal with them. Of the twelve Americans arrested, none of them have served their full sentences and several destined for the camps never left the hotel.. They usually hold them anywhere from a few months to a couple of years. Some do wind up in labor camps(like Kenneth Bae), but so far, all have returned.
I'm sorry but I really know don't know what you're trying to do here.
Ofcourse the punishment is insane and the guy not getting a fair process is also a huge problem.
But the guy decided to go to North Korea!!! and despite that before you even go there you have to sign a form saying you know about all the rules and will stay with the tour group and follow orders of the tour leader at any time. They give you a briefing before hand and send you an information package which also includes do's and don'ts.
And then when you finally do show up in North Korea the Tour guide stressed those do's and don'ts again.
AND then you still decide to leave your hotel room and go roaming about and steal a post or flag or whatever he took.
I'm sorry but the dude is a fucking idiot.
15 years is insane. But they fucking tell you a 100 times to not steal anything or go wandering about/leave the hotel at night.
Tevious
Member
I live in South Korea. That's funny about the beer. The South Korean brands (Cass and Hite) suck. I prefer Tsing Tao, a Chinese brand founded by German settlers.
I've been to JSA in the DMZ (south side) twice already. Had both the American and ROK tours. They like to sell the place as being really dangerous, but I think it's mostly for show. You can also buy North Korean money there at a gift shop. I bought some as a souvenir. I'll probably go to the war museum this week during Chuseok, since I haven't gotten around to going there yet.
I've been to JSA in the DMZ (south side) twice already. Had both the American and ROK tours. They like to sell the place as being really dangerous, but I think it's mostly for show. You can also buy North Korean money there at a gift shop. I bought some as a souvenir. I'll probably go to the war museum this week during Chuseok, since I haven't gotten around to going there yet.
SuperBanana
Banned
Never said going there showed me they're nice and merciful people. In fact, I said the opposite anout the government.
I'd like to see the SK side too. One traveler was a teacher who lived in South Korea (but Canadian) and wanted to see the other side.
OP, glad to hear you had a safe and enjoyable visit. Thank you for sharing your pictures and story. Now for a little but on how you helped out the DPRK regime.
First, fiscally. You do know that a portion of your expenses for the trip went to North Korean leadership, in a sense everything that didn't go to airfare to get to China and your stay there went to them, directly or indirectly. You said it wasn't that much, and you're right that most countries won't be able to survive and just tourist trips like you took.
Second, and even worse in my opinion, is the PsyOps you willfully are part of now. (Yes, PsyOps is real, you can look it up and is considered a part of information warfare, such as dropping pamphlets and propaganda). You took part in a guided tour that was developed so you could see what the regime wants you to see and spread that along. You recognize that partly, but you don't fully comprehend all of it. By going and sharing you story and view you are helping the regime seem less evil. You are fighting in here that it isn't all as bad as everyone makes it out to be, elevating the DPRK Leadership indirectly by showing the good that has come to the country and spreading stories about how it isn't all evil. While what you saw was nice, I'm sure, it was what they wanted you to see. And now in the future if people start talking about North Korea think about what you will say. I'm not positive, but wouldn't be surprised at all if it was something along the lines of "Yeah, they are bad, but not all of it is bad. I took a trip and had a good time, look at these pictures." Not wrong to share your experiences, but you will be diverting people having a conversation about the atrocities happening there possibly and showing them a North Korea that doesn't realm exist. If this happens enough people will start to believe the country isn't as bad as all the defectors say and start trying to justify the regime.
People in this thread just are trying to get you to understand this to some extent. You say you didn't fall for their propaganda, but you really mean you didn't fall for the propaganda aimed at the North Koreans, you do appear to have fallen for the propaganda aimed at foreigners though. It is actually pretty obvious when you read just the OP:
"If you're wondering if our hotel rooms were bugged, yes, they were. However, we were told they really only bug them for diplomats and important people and probably don't even have them turned on for us. They don't care what we do or say in our rooms."
"I discovered those who say they "illegally" took photos on their trip or had to "sneak out" pictures are full of shit."... "You aren't allowed photos inside..."
"The guide was fully open about it and told us the story. What you don't realize is just how stupid it was what he did."
" It's poor but not as poor as I thought. There aren't people eating tree roots or fully emancipated."
Appreciate your trip, but try not to fool yourself into thinking that you have seen the true North Korea. I don't want to dogpile any further, but try to think about your whole trip critically and understand why others don't view it as an innocent trip the same way you do.
You are probably right in that the kids aren't actors. The great thing about kids is they don't fully understand things so are easier to keep happy. But if you don't think they are planted come on.
If you go by where I live at 0810 Monday through Friday late August til late June you will see groups of kids standing around looking happy. If you think the North Korean government isn't able to make things look normal with as long as they have been doing this you're fooling yourself.
Do you really think it is that hard for a totalitarian dictatorship to keep people they don't want foreigners to see away from a couple hundred miles of road? Do you think the government doesn't approve a route that goes through the best of the villages they have? They have total control of the whole tour.
You are right that there is the possibility for someone to do something that would look bad on the government, but the people there probably have a decent understanding of what will happen of you go against the governments word.o
First, fiscally. You do know that a portion of your expenses for the trip went to North Korean leadership, in a sense everything that didn't go to airfare to get to China and your stay there went to them, directly or indirectly. You said it wasn't that much, and you're right that most countries won't be able to survive and just tourist trips like you took.
Second, and even worse in my opinion, is the PsyOps you willfully are part of now. (Yes, PsyOps is real, you can look it up and is considered a part of information warfare, such as dropping pamphlets and propaganda). You took part in a guided tour that was developed so you could see what the regime wants you to see and spread that along. You recognize that partly, but you don't fully comprehend all of it. By going and sharing you story and view you are helping the regime seem less evil. You are fighting in here that it isn't all as bad as everyone makes it out to be, elevating the DPRK Leadership indirectly by showing the good that has come to the country and spreading stories about how it isn't all evil. While what you saw was nice, I'm sure, it was what they wanted you to see. And now in the future if people start talking about North Korea think about what you will say. I'm not positive, but wouldn't be surprised at all if it was something along the lines of "Yeah, they are bad, but not all of it is bad. I took a trip and had a good time, look at these pictures." Not wrong to share your experiences, but you will be diverting people having a conversation about the atrocities happening there possibly and showing them a North Korea that doesn't realm exist. If this happens enough people will start to believe the country isn't as bad as all the defectors say and start trying to justify the regime.
People in this thread just are trying to get you to understand this to some extent. You say you didn't fall for their propaganda, but you really mean you didn't fall for the propaganda aimed at the North Koreans, you do appear to have fallen for the propaganda aimed at foreigners though. It is actually pretty obvious when you read just the OP:
"If you're wondering if our hotel rooms were bugged, yes, they were. However, we were told they really only bug them for diplomats and important people and probably don't even have them turned on for us. They don't care what we do or say in our rooms."
"I discovered those who say they "illegally" took photos on their trip or had to "sneak out" pictures are full of shit."... "You aren't allowed photos inside..."
"The guide was fully open about it and told us the story. What you don't realize is just how stupid it was what he did."
" It's poor but not as poor as I thought. There aren't people eating tree roots or fully emancipated."
Appreciate your trip, but try not to fool yourself into thinking that you have seen the true North Korea. I don't want to dogpile any further, but try to think about your whole trip critically and understand why others don't view it as an innocent trip the same way you do.
Yes, everyone knows they are fake and setup. The tour group would have to be stupid to try to lie to you that way. Just because they tell one truth doesn't mean everything else is true.
You are probably right in that the kids aren't actors. The great thing about kids is they don't fully understand things so are easier to keep happy. But if you don't think they are planted come on.
If you go by where I live at 0810 Monday through Friday late August til late June you will see groups of kids standing around looking happy. If you think the North Korean government isn't able to make things look normal with as long as they have been doing this you're fooling yourself.
Do you really think it is that hard for a totalitarian dictatorship to keep people they don't want foreigners to see away from a couple hundred miles of road? Do you think the government doesn't approve a route that goes through the best of the villages they have? They have total control of the whole tour.
You are right that there is the possibility for someone to do something that would look bad on the government, but the people there probably have a decent understanding of what will happen of you go against the governments word.o
What they gain with westerns tourists that don't think NK ain't so bad (which doesn't mean it's good)? Seriously they don't need it, is not like the world isn't well informed or it will be a reputation change for their government or that it reflects the reality of the entire country when you can't walk there freely to see for yourself. The estimate is about 1500 westerners visitng NK each year lol. 1500 people visiting each year this should generate a huge revenue for them lol
About attacking i'm referring to my post you quoted not you exactly. About respect: I don't think respect is optional and it is the minimum requirement for anyone who wants to enter in any discussion regardless the topic but yeah seems like it's just me ...
Have you looked at this thread? There a already a few people that seem to be questioning Western news and NK detractors. The NK government has gained a lot more of that from these tours.
And if they weren't gaining anything, why would they allow them? Is it the North Korean hotel lobby pushing for them? If the government felt these tours would not have a net positive they wouldn't allow them.
ManUnkindH
Member
Incredible post OP, thanks for all the info. On a personal side note, I would've starved. That food looks absolutely awful.
I agree that many would go out of curiosity or an interest in subjects related to NK, but that is exactly it, people do it for pleasure and/or quenching their own curiosity. They shouldn't make any illusions about helping the people over there nor should they make any illusions about being able to actually be informative about the country afterwards. It is a trip for fun/curiosity and there are people against that given the atrocities NK does against it's own people.
MisterFalcon
Member
How different was this trip from the one portrayed in the 'Friends of Kim' documentary ?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C76HqPaA6kw
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C76HqPaA6kw
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