Nichijou season 2.
I wish that somebody would make a Slice of Life moe comedy anime about feminists.
- Thread starter HolyBaikal
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Nichijou season 2.
High-five! \o/ <3
(Comiket is great just because of the nice amount of music being released there at the con)
That's a pretty good one and basically the only one I know. ;_;
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
moe has nothing to do with age
STOP WHAT YOU ARE DOING AND GO WATCH NICHIJOU RIGHT NOW!
Forget anime, it's one of the best sketch comedy shows I've ever seen PERIOD.
Miko just looks like an 11 year old girl in bondage clothing, but she's really the spiritual embodiment of Margaret Thatcher.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
nichijou has nothing to do with animals tho
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I guess some people just wonder if this comes from an actual feminist perspective...I mean there's an issue with how the various groups of feminists interact and such, and not every feminist agrees on the general principles, but I guess making a thread where you want all these strong, historical women to be re-imagined as cute, baby-faced anime girls...it makes people wonder. It's like, there's those cheap comics back in the day that were all about "forbidden" inter-racial romances with jungle women and such, those were more of a fetishistic treatment towards the idea of "outsiders", rather than a respectful advancement of race relations. Your idea sounds a bit along those lines.
I don't think you're a misogynist, or overtly harmful to the cause of feminism, I just think perhaps you need to look a bit beyond your love of moe and analyze what messages that style sends. Are you part of any forums exclusively designed to discuss feminism? Perhaps you might want to get input from those that are well-read in feminism when it comes to the realism of achieving what you're suggesting.
...Yuko sees the principle fight a deer.
Or ask some of the more vocal feminists that are here, like Lime or Devo. I may not always agree with what they say, but they always provide a fresh prospective on the subject at hand.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I don't know. I'm sure not all of the things I like are related to femnism.
I like moe and feminism because they both feel good. Not all feminists agree on the same things. That's why there are so many branches of feminism. I agree with most feminists on most things. And I find listening to their opinions comforting, because it means that I don't feel alone in the way I do about gender. That I have other people who feel like I do. It never feels good to feel alone.
Cordelia Fine brings up a lot of disturbing neurosexism in her book. But it feels comforting to hear her say things speaking against it. It makes me feel not alone in my feelings about biosexism.
I agree with almost every single thing Simone de Beauvoir has ever said. Moe and feminism are both a part of me and the way I look at life.
I would like to see Simone de Beauvoir and Peter Kropotkin's views be more beloved to more people. Moe often endears people to other people. I would like them and their views endeared to more people.
I look up to a lot of people, both real and not real. Real people like Simone de Beauvoir, Mikhail Bakunin, Peter Kropotkin, and many others. And many anime characters, too.
I want to share this feelings with other moe fans. The feeling of how someone like Simone de Beauvoir understood many of the same feelings I have about the world. I know that someone else out there will share that feeling of intellectual closeness and comfort. The feeling of reading something Simone de Beauvoir has said, and being comforted by it.
John Kowalski
Banned
freenudemacusers
Member
well that certainly would explain why the vast majority of moe anime i see discussed is centered around little girls.
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
I'd argue it doesn't. It doesn't endear people to other people, it makes fictional characters and marketed idols endearing to consumers.
They're not little girls, they just have petite body frames
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Its probably accurate to say that moe is more concerned with "maturity" than biological age. But often that maturity manifests in character designs as appearances that we associate with physically younger age.
On the compatibility of "moe" and "feminism" I think stuff like K-ON!/K-ON!! for example which is well-made, inoffensive and is notable for being produced and directed by a mostly-female staff is perfectly compatible with feminist ideas and no-one who considers themselves a feminist and enjoys that show should feel insecure about it, what's not however is the otaku culture that surrounds a work like that, which should be opposed by feminists on ideological grounds, because the root of that culture is inherently sexist and degrading to women (even if they are just drawn characters being the victim of rule 41).
On a another note I definitely think enjoying Sword Art Online and calling yourself a feminist would be considered a example of cognitive dissonance though.
On a another note I definitely think enjoying Sword Art Online and calling yourself a feminist would be considered a example of cognitive dissonance though.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
freenudemacusers
Member
well i don't see a lot of young boy anime out there, or being talked about much.
John Kowalski
Banned
Do you make an effort to seek those discussions or just skim over those which reach the most visibility?
freenudemacusers
Member
i do not still beat my wife.
...It's out there. It's not for us. Much in the way Free wasn't for us.
FUCKING LOST IT.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
They exist, but they, interestingly enough, often appeal to female viewers. Moe often seems to be accompanied by a gendered gaze
Watch Da Birdie
I buy cakes for myself on my birthday it's not weird lots of people do it I bet
"Moe" shows with boys aren't a widespread issue much in the same way the sexualiziation of comic book men isn't comparable to the sexualization of comic book women, because the cultures they come from don't have a major issue with sexism against men. So they're seen as a possibly weird niche, but not a problematic element of a misogynistic culture.
Yeah of course I've seen arguments that go to the effect of "Anime isn't sexist because it sexualises little girls look at how men are sexualised in work x" which are problematic for the reasons you have outlined.
Josei's a weird genre all over. There's definitely a huge sexualization culture for men in that lane. Fujoshi bait is real, that industry is huge with manga especially.
Those are bad arguments though, and, as we saw on gaming side about Mevius:Final Fantasy, it's mostly because the majority of men have never had to deal with a design that is actually designed to be sexualized, rather than simply being skimpy amalgamations of accepted male garb.
HolyBaikal
Banned
Well, it sure does to me and many other people.
Moe characters aren't just sex objects. And more many people, moe isn't even a sexual feeling. It's a feeling of liking someone, you can like someone without it being sexual.
And is market bad? I'm not sure what you mean. Because I mean... Elsa and Anna are marketed as much as any anime characters. But they're empowering to young girls. I think Anna can be pretty moe in some ways, even though she's not an anime character.
I'm sure Elsa and Anna are both moe to many people. Though, my favourite is Anna.
radios shipping overview
Member
Sexism goes beyond sexualized portrayals, though. You have to look at the power dynamic. Are the male characters in something like FREE portrayed as virginal, subservient, or somehow at the mercy of plot power wielded by female characters?
Replace every instance of "Moe" with "sexy" in your post and the point is still the same.
I'd argue that K-On only gets away with it because there are no men in that show.
No, but even if they were, that's just someone else's fetish (NTR). It'd still be different as the people watching are still getting off on the MC's misfortune. If Cross Ange starred a guy and was otherwise exactly the same, the show would still be just as perverse.
Crash Station
Member
Boku no Pico is the most popular anime of all time.
HolyBaikal
Banned
I think that's a problem with moe. But I don't think it makes moe bad, just like it doesn't make anime bad.
Just because it's a part of anime and moe, doesn't make it the exact same thing as either of those things. It's just a bad part of them. I mean, there are a lot of bad things about video games, but that doesn't make video games bad.
Maybe not, but the hundreds of otome titles and the larger josei genre as a whole could probably spout more than a handful of examples. I personal see them both as examples of the same problem, there's studios putting out similar content aimed directly at women that also pander to fujoshi in the same way that overdone moe panders to male otakus.
Feels like two sides of the same coin. In the end those animation studios are going to chase the money wherever it is.
YOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!
That dude was weak
The issue is that, while it is a bad part of the whole, it is the most profitable part of the whole, and that's simply due to the culture and really can't be changed through the works alone.
HolyBaikal
Banned
freenudemacusers
Member
i'm not sure a hentai about young boys really seals the argument up well
i'm not sure a hentai about young boys really seals the argument up well
What if it was set in WWII Europe?
HolyBaikal
Banned
Well, I would like to hope there's a large enough audience for the nicer parts of moe without the problematic parts.
I mean, I like it...
hahahahaha
lmao
Do you consume the product though directly?
Do you go out and actively buy BD's directly?
Merch? I fucking don't. Have you seen their pricing schemes?
Mainly why I don't bother criticizing the industry because in reality most of us don't have a single stake in it.
Thought I will say I bought like 4 copies of Watamote manga because the author responded to me on twitter with broken English way back when saying thanks when she started blowing up. Shit was like barely 18 bills!
Crash Station
Member
Maybe not subservient most of the time, but absolutely. Bunch of Josei/Otome games are male harems with a female protagonist.
Not referring to Free here as I never watched it.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
At the end of the day I think this is the strongest issue that people are trying to express: while there are people like you who would enjoy it in an educational sense there is a much larger swathe of people who would enjoy its moe-ness in an indulgent sense, and the form of that indulgence could actually be counterproductive for advancing feminism
freenudemacusers
Member
my little brother can't be this hitlerjugend
richardhawk
Member
What the fuck is a moe?
HolyBaikal
Banned
I buy what I can. I don't have many Japanese DVDs and Blu-Rays. But if I had a job that I could afford them easier, I would.
I subscribe to crunchyroll, and I buy a lot of localized DVDs and Blu-Rays. And I buy a lot of merchandise. I own a whole bunch of Sailor Moon things right now.
To me, Magical Girl shows are both cute and empowering.
Mmm....
I suppose my only response to that is, why does their brand of feminism cease once the dress comes off?
It's a notion I see a lot in cosplay as well. A lot of people feel empowered while engaging with this super out there hobby, but when it's time to return to real life, the sense of being rebellious and outstanding and above it all disappears with the venue. I don't understand why.
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