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Identity Crisis Remix!

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Father_Brain said:
There's another "SPOILER" on Newsarama that also says
Jean Loring
is revealed as the killer, but for different reasons than those posted in your link. I believe there are going to be A LOT of these in the lead up to Wednesday, probably all fake. You'd think DC launched a campaign of misinformation or something...


Don't believe it 'til you've got a copy in your own two hands, folks. :)
 
i read that. i dont think it's "accurate" there may be some elements of thruth to it but i'm not sure... weird thing. i had a dream last night that i read IC#7 and oracle was revealed as the killer. batgirl had found out her secret. and she did it cause she wanted to walk again. funny thing was, in my dream i was screaming at the comic book.
 
got this from the Brad Meltzer message boards, and it gives a lot of thought to this mystery. The killer isn't revealed, but it gives a lot of insight into the series:

First things first, the comics make it pretty clear that Ralph is a better detective than Bruce. I don't mean to say "I'm a fan, I support a quirky character's gimmick over a main-stay," I just mean that Ralph is smarter, faster, and generally more perceptive than Batman. They're obviously the two best human detectives in the DCU, it's just that Batman works methodically and scientifically, he has trained himself to do the job well and performs his deductive reasoning through a process. He's good at what he does through mental discipline. Ralph Dibny is a natural, he doesn't even have to try. He normally recognizes complex situations for what they are at the first glance, his mind operates in a way that identifies all the potential pieces that might have relevence in potential puzzles just walking through a room, and he can instantly recall even the most trivial details to fill in the gaps when he finds more pieces to work with. In several stories, he takes on a mystery knowing both the "who" and the "why" before even beginning an investigation, only doing so to force the guilty party into revealing themselves. When he's *trying* to figure out a puzzle, nobody can beat him. Whenever Ralph and Bruce meet, there's an effort made to show them as equals in the field, but if you look at their independent efforts, Ralph is clearly on top. Shame that all this badness had to come down on him, and doubly so because now that he's in the spotlight again, he's too grief-stricken to be of any use with his talents.

As for your thoughts, I can see Sue setting up a scenario "fake doing something bad, don't let me know what it is, because invariably Ralph reads between the lines and figures it out. Surprise all of us." I don't think that was the case, however.

For one, Sue would never go so far as to fake death and to leave her own corpse. She usually gets abducted if she's involved, not killed. Ralph enjoys the fun of solving mysteries, not the danger and heartbreak associated with villainy. It's supposed to be a *fun* surprise every year, a romp. Also, Ollie knew what the mystery was supposed to be that night, and he was supposed to be in the cake at the end (anyone else notice the cake on the table is too small for Green Arrow to fit? Ray Palmer, yes, Ollie Queen, no...) Assuming the cake was meant to accompany the presents (and Ralph wasn't supposed to see either until the end), then we have the mystery *ending* at the Dibny's house, not beginning. Also, given the pregnancy, it's doubtful that Sue would take any active physical role in the mystery. She'd probably wait at the house and receive guests... so, this is not Sue's mystery.

However, the coincidences are just too great. Someone knew of the event, and hijacked it. Ralph was expecting a mystery, and he got the most heartrending mystery of his life. The irony is just too thick not to be intentional. This wasn't an "example", a random death of a random Leaguer-associate. This was a very personal, even intimate, attack. Whoever it is is probably enjoying Ralph *not* being the one to solve the riddle, it almost seems set up so that this total deconstruction of Ralph's identity is the motive...

Someone mentioned Ralphs biography (especially birthdate) being public knowledge - remember that this doesn't take place on Ralph's birthday, and if it's supposed to be a mystery Sue wouldn't tell anyone who could pass it on to Ralph what day it's supposed to happen, which is pretty much anyone, actually. So who knew? All the guests, but not all the Leaguers, plus Alfred. Calculator might have known, as the phone-call with Alfred lets us know a simple phone-tap would have done the job, but... would he really be on the phone peddling info to Bolt while the deed was done if he knew a hit was planned on a Leaguer's wife? Would he even allow that to be done, given the weight it brings down on the villain community?

It looks like microscopic-size is the key to the mystery, but the original sound that spooked Sue came from down the stairs. If it was actually Atom, he could have just travelled into her brain through the phone while she was talking on it. As it stands, if it is Atom, he'd have to enter downstairs, give her time to recognize a threat (not just a sound, but someone walking audibly, etc... when he could just go microscopic) and time to call Ralph, throw her while she's on the phone across the table, go microscopic and kill her, then after she's dead fwoosh her with a fire-throwing piece of equipment.

So we've got conflicting evidence. The physical evidence points to Ray, and since we know he's a good guy and didn't do it, we assume he was used or mentally coerced or taken over or whatever.

Ray knew Ralph and Sue for a long time. So did Jean Loring. Sue was throwing a party for Ralph, and yet neither Ray nor Jean was invited (nor seemed to even know about it.) The greater oddity is that by coincidence Ray and Jean had an appointment for *exactly* the same time as the murder. The even greater oddity is that Ray blames his being subatomic for his signal device failing, when the rest of the league had been trying to contact him for an hour. He was subatomic for an entire hour when he should have been at Jean's? That's basically an anti-alibi. Unless Jean is the mastermind behind this conspiracy, it seems that if Ray was mentally manipulated, so was Jean. So the entire affair had to be planned out from the beginning, including the attack on Jean in which she resists her attacker - but if following the trend of throwing a mystery at the best detective he can't solve, why throw a challenge to the Atom using *ROPE*, which his powers and innate comprehension of physics let him defeat so easily? If the point was to break down Ralph's sense of self, why let Ray off the hook? Apparently, to frame him.

In this sense, the attack on Batman (through Tim's dad) was successful... the orphan dedicated to making sure no other child lost his parents has let his partner be orphaned. Ralph has been caught with his pants down, and no idea who the killer is, nothing he can do to think his way out of the situation. Ray's just a patsy. So far, the only true targets have been Ralph and Bruce...

Which leads us to the whole Dr. Light incident that seems to be behind the whole crisis - Batman and Elongated Man weren't there for the mindwipe. In fact, Ralph missed it taking Sue to the hospital, and Batman *attacked* the Justice League on Light's behalf during Zatanna's mindrape thing. They are basically the only two who *weren't* complicit.

So, who would be angry at Ralph and Bruce for fighting the mindrape? Well, Carter suggested it. Ray was first to support it. Zatanna actually did it. And Barry's dead. On the other hand, Carter's a cop, Ray apparently didn't know about the murder, Zatanna's definitely not going to kill Sue over it, and Barry's dead. From that point on, your guess is as good as mine.
 

Diuretic

Member
I think the most intellectually sound and satisfying theory put forth so far has been by canesrule over at the DC Message Boards:

Here

He builds a convincing case against a person who isn't, and has never been, the focus of the most popular theories as to who committed the murder, and he ties together several seemingly unrelated elements across all six issues in his argument. The gist of his theory is that
Sue was killed by Ralph out of revenge for having an illicit affair with Barry.
I know, sounds ridiculous in summary, but there are a surprising number of plot points outlined in the link above that can be argued as being in support of it.
 
Here it is, from Ryan Higgins at Millarworld:

Jean killed Sue, in order to get Ray back. "Who benifits when a family member of a hero is killed? The family members of all the other heroes." Jean Loring is just crazy, apparently. She attacked Sue, but didn't mean to kill her. "I shrunk some other weapons...just in case...and in the panic, I just-I didn't want to go to jail..." She hung herself. She set up Boomerang through Calculator, and sent Jack the gun in order for him to protect himself. Jean didn't think that Boomerang would actually kill Jack.

Ray puts her in Arkham.

Batman knows he was mind wiped.

Ralph gets really drunk and holds a conversation with Sue.
 

Agent Dormer

Dirty Drinking Smoker
Father_Brain said:
Here it is, from Ryan Higgins at Millarworld:

Jean killed Sue, in order to get Ray back. "Who benifits when a family member of a hero is killed? The family members of all the other heroes." Jean Loring is just crazy, apparently. She attacked Sue, but didn't mean to kill her. "I shrunk some other weapons...just in case...and in the panic, I just-I didn't want to go to jail..." She hung herself. She set up Boomerang through Calculator, and sent Jack the gun in order for him to protect himself. Jean didn't think that Boomerang would actually kill Jack.

Ray puts her in Arkham.

Batman knows he was mind wiped.

Ralph gets really drunk and holds a conversation with Sue.

I liked Diuretic's link's idea better. :|
 
...It's true.
wtf.gif


Jean
is the killer. But for god's sake, there are easier ways to
get back together with your husband that involve far less killing. Why didn't this woman, I don't know, ask Ray out on a date or something?!?

Screwy.
 
Dram said:
So when it's all said and done, was the IC's ending disappointing?
Well, I'm a little bummed that
I was wrong about Ray, and that the reasoning behind Jean's motive was so... crazy,
but yeah - I'd say it was still a pretty good ending.
Jean's in an asylum, and Ray's been so shattered by the events that he's disappeared. I mean, literally; the guy shrunk down to subatomic size, and hasn't been seen since. And even though it seems the League's back to business as usual, there's an underlying tension between some of its members that I think's going to build with whatever DC's planning next.

That whole thing with Ralph
carrying on a normal bedtime conversation with his dead wife
at the end was a bit creepy though... sweet, but creepy.
 
so i just read it....

jean is the killer, but she never meant to kill sue, but then she had to because she screwed up when she was shrinking and gave sue a stroke.
now the thing about identity crisis is that it's not about the heroes having a big punch out with a super-villain and such...... it's about who suffers and benefits...... villains benefit. the heat's off them.
heroes' families benefit, they get brought close togheter. but obviously one unforseen event was that this could split the league apart, batman still doesnt know about him being mind-wiped.
the satellite era league will have to live with the guilt of tampering with a trusted ally and friend and having mind-wiped so many villains just so they can have some sense of normalcy.
all this tension is gonna biuld up to something and i can see why some people would be dissapointed with IC. but they have to understand that this is the beginning of something far bigger. it should be interesting what happens next.
another thing is that the heroes really got caught with their pants down..... they basically have no defenses against someone that's close to them who's gone off the deep end.

overall i was sattisfied with the eway things ended, the loose will probably be tied up in the flash, teen titans, superman, JSA, green arrow, manhunter and firestorm so watch those titles forsome final resolution not to mention that 80 page book that's coming out in march.
 
I was disappointed.

Well, Jean has gone crazy before. But I thought she left him, and he was the perpetually whipped one?

Also, I didn't think Ralph was drunk-- those were Gingold bottles, from whence his stretching power comes.

It's not so much what did occur-- it's the things that were not explained. For instance:

1) What is Owen Mercer's parantage?

2) What did Boomerang "do" that Claculator referred to a while back?

3) Why would Jean tie a knot associated with a Suicide Squad guy? Was the death really an accident, why did she have weapons, and why did she think knocking out Sue would gather attention (unless, of course, she really just meant to kill her).

4) WIll this mean a villainous, female crazy Atomette? I hope so.

5) Where were Ralph's detective skills?
 
Ignatz Mouse said:
I was disappointed.

Well, Jean has gone crazy before. But I thought she left him, and he was the perpetually whipped one?

Also, I didn't think Ralph was drunk-- those were Gingold bottles, from whence his stretching power comes.

It's not so much what did occur-- it's the things that were not explained. For instance:

1) What is Owen Mercer's parantage?

2) What did Boomerang "do" that Claculator referred to a while back?

3) Why would Jean tie a knot associated with a Suicide Squad guy? Was the death really an accident, why did she have weapons, and why did she think knocking out Sue would gather attention (unless, of course, she really just meant to kill her).

4) WIll this mean a villainous, female crazy Atomette? I hope so.

5) Where were Ralph's detective skills?


1) that will probaly be touched on in the flash #217-220.
2) nothing of consequence. remenber, digger was out of his prime and whatever jobs he took on probably botched them.
3) the knot was , as clark pointed out, a typical, run of the mill knot. since ray used to be in the suicide squad and all, she figured that using the M.O's of former squad menbers would get ray closer to her.
4) probably..... or a reformed ex-wife (i'd still hit though, i lke 'em a bit crazy :D )
5) buried with sue. honestly, i dont care how good a detective you are, you cant solve a crime if it's done inside someone's brain at microscopic size.

i think in ther future wally wont be able to live with the big secret of batman being mind-wiped.
 
Wally's not that much of a wuss.

And I know Ralph might not have been able to solve it-- but I was kinda expecting him to snap back in this chapter and figure it all out.
 
Ignatz Mouse said:
Wally's not that much of a wuss.

And I know Ralph might not have been able to solve it-- but I was kinda expecting him to snap back in this chapter and figure it all out.


did ya see his expression in the last few pages when batman was asking what was wrong?
wally's gonna sing or i'll eat a broom.
 
here's something i've picked up..... it might explain what identity crisis started.

Remember a few months ago, Lying In The Gutters mentioned a new Crisis series for 2005 by Geoff Johns and Phil Jiminez?

Well, I've just received a few more details. Trouble is they're being disputed. Let's see.

I've been told the whole of the DC Universe will jump forward by a year. All the titles will have completely new setups as a result, and the new Crisis series will gradually explain what happened to leave all the characters in the state they are after the year gap.

And that the first books to launch out of that will be the previously mentioned Superman by Grant Morrison and Frank Quitely in August, Batman by Jim Lee and Jeph Loeb, and Wonder Woman by Geoff Johns and Ethan Van Sciver.

But despite the story being well sourced, someone else equally well sourced is throwing water over it. And not just over the possibility that the new books don't spin out of Crisis 2, but that the book is about something else entirely. Or am I just hedging my bets?

Either way, definitely expect shock and awe for whatever emerges from whatever Crisis turns out to be. And expect to see DC titles dominate the charts for a fair few months."
 
Ignatz Mouse said:
You're probably right, but I don't like the characterization. He used to be more hot-headed and sure of himself.


wally is as tough and sure of himself as ever. but when a man who you trust with your life tells you that one time he voted to have the BATMAN mind-wiped to cover-up what was in essence a crime, that's gonna shake you up a bit. i thought that was the strong point of the series.
 
Ignatz Mouse said:
Oh, and
I liked how Jean got herself into the noose. Turns out she had been wearing gloves, just took 'em off.


yeah, when i read issue #3 i had figured it was the same killer who killed sue. little did i know that it was the killer hurting herself. ( did i mention i'd still hit it? :D )

but as far as plans go, hers was pretty effective. it even stumped mr. miracle and batman.
i hope the atom comes back though, i'd hate to see the little guy go nuts again.
 
here's some "loose" plot thread that will be looked at in the future.

- GA and Deathstroke's bitter rivalry
- the new Cap boomerang and the mystery of his parentage
- the Calculator as a threat in the DCU
- Batman shown as faillable and a potential rift within the JLA
 
I see your point about Wally and GA re: the mindwipe thing. Perhaps I'd be hapier if it wasn;t left mid-process. I'll wait and see where it goes.

Let's also have EM showing his stuff again. If this effectively writes him out, I'll be unhappy.
 

nomoment

Member
Regarding the issue itself, this quote was the single most important point:

"An era can be said to end when its basic illusions are exhausted."

In comparison to the Marvel Universe, the DCU has always been seen as much more fantasy, with DC's heroes always being bigger, and more iconic. What this quote suggests is that Identity Crisis ended the era of "DCU Fantasy." The illusion of the DCU was that it's heroes were always perfect, almost godlike -- in contrast to the more grounded Marvel heroes like Spider-Man, Daredevil, etc. Identity Crisis brought us closer to the people behind the masks in the DCU. "Leagues" of gods can sometimes make mistakes in judgement, heroes can hide dark secrets, and yes, people can even get raped. These points, coupled with the constant theme of family (Not just the couples, but also the interconnectivity of the JLA, JSA, Titans, etc.) reiterated the point that our heroes are still humans, and can have flaws.

While I doubt this new post-Identity Crisis "era" in the DCU will even remotely resemble "gritty realism," it is an interesting change of pace. The fact that the world's greatest heroes gather in a Watchtower on the moon shows how the element of fantasy is juggled (as it always had, but IC emphasizes this) with our newly grounded DCU. The fact that Meltzer has found a way to make our heroes appear completely human, while not completely wiping out our "fantasy" is what made Identity Crisis so great.
 

nomoment

Member
mightynine said:
I read not one issue of this series: what's all this about Batman and a mindwipe and why would Wally be involved?
During the "Satellite JLA" years, Sue Dibny got raped by Dr. Light.

If sent to jail, he threatened to "brag" about his night with Sue "under the stars," while also implying that he would reveal the secrets of other JLA members.

As a result, the JLA (At the time: Batman, Green Arrow, Hawkman, Green Lantern I, Flash II, Zantanna, Atom, Elongated Man) voted to mindwipe Dr. Light so he wouldn't present himself as a future danger to the heroes. Barry Allen was the deciding vote. However, here's the catch, they didn't vote/mindwipe until Batman left to deal with matters in Gotham.

Batman returns amidst Dr. Light's mindwipe, and flips-out. Zantanna freezes him, and the League unanimously decides to mindwipe this incident from Batman's memory, since public knowledge of this mindwipe could tear apart The League.

In present time, Wally finds out everything, including the fact that his predecessor, Barry "clean as a whistle" Allen was the deciding vote. Everything changes.
 

Tamanon

Banned
So who is the villain that knows all their secrets? I read the new Flash(with the Top) and it seemed to delve more into the actual consequences of Identity Crisis. Explained a few things also.
 
well, a few villains back in the silver age had switched bodies with the satellite league and had learned of the heroes identities. these villains were mind-wiped also.
 
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