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[SykoTech]

So now we're back to "considerably more powerful", eh? That's good. Hopefully it proves to be true at E3.

 

[richman555]

I am happy because this is truly "next gen" for Nintendo. Seeing HD versions of all of the Nintendo games will be awesome. As for the controllers we can only trust Nintendo until E3. I think if each controller has a camera (ala the 3DS) it is possible that Nintendo could pull off some interesting augmented reality games. Also it could be fun for Mario cart or first person shooters (Goldeneye) where the tv screen is cut into 4. In fact, it makes you wonder if you need the tv screen at all.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

it better be if any of the streaming capabilities is true.

I was talking about system ram, not combined system/vram.

 

[TouchMyBox]

The 360 used a GPU more advanced than anything at the time when announced and the PS3 used a GPU as advanced as anything at the time of announcement (the PS3 was originally meant to launch in 2005).

Fixed.

(though of course, these were mid-high end chips at the time, so even the above is a little generous)

 

[nelsonroyale]

I hope this is true. However, there is no way that the PS4 and XBox720 or whatever wont have a more powerful gpu. Hell, I just bought a new Laptop that can beat that handily I would say.

 

[AceBandage]

I hope this is true. However, there is no way that the PS4 and XBox720 or whatever wont have a more powerful gpu. Hell, I just bought a new Laptop that can beat that handily I would say.

Yes, of course the PS4/720 will be more powerful. They'll be launching a year to two after the Cafe.
However, it won't be as big of a difference as a lot of people think.

 

[avaya]

The 4850 is a 256mm^2 chip. This is inline with that I'd expect. No console will exceed a total die area of 450mm^2 for CPU + GPU next gen. That'd be in the max 180W TDP range.

For likely chips, look at die size first.

 

[TouchMyBox]

The 4850 is a 256mm^2 chip. This is inline with that I'd expect. No console will exceed a total die area of 450mm^2 for CPU + GPU next gen. That'd be in the max 180W TDP range.

For likely chips, look at die size first.

Isn't that at 55nm though? That would mean it's a useless number.

 

[avaya]

Isn't that at 55nm though? That would mean it's a useless number.

Die size for 360 and PS3 first revision were ~450mm^2. That's the sort of size you'd expect for the initial launch, at max. You can look at each process node to see the chips that fit.

 

[TouchMyBox]

Die size for 360 and PS3 first revision were ~450mm^2. That's the sort of size you'd expect for the initial launch, at max. You can look at each process node to see the chips that fit.

But whatever goes into the next nintendo console would be way smaller thanks to smaller transistors and the lack of dormant SIMDs

 

[brain_stew]

It definitely won't be higher clocked, that's just something Nintendo won't do, although I have no idea if it will be lower clocked. I think it will be slightly underclocked to keep TDP as low as possible and having high yields. Nintendo can't afford to have anything less than excellent yields on their GPU unlike the other two.

They're going to be using a newer process node and even at 55nm, that design could reliably hit 1g hz after a few tweaks (4890). Assuming it will be lower clocked than a 4850 is far from a safe assumption.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

I do wonder whether the gpu will be on 40nm or the untested 28nm which tsmc will very soon be spitting out amd's new range on.

That'd get tdp down a lot, but I'm not sure if nintendo would want to take risks with yields.

 

[DefectiveReject]

Not to mention how much money Nintendo save of all of the mail-in rebates!

High Fives your awesomeness

 

[AceBandage]

I do wonder whether the gpu will be on 40nm or the untested 28nm which tsmc will very soon be spitting out amd's new range on.

That'd get tdp down a lot, but I'm not sure if nintendo would want to take risks with yields.

There's no reason, if they are really going to have a system as large as the original 360.

 

[Graphics Horse]

it better be if any of the streaming capabilities is true.

Not sure why, if it had no streaming it would still be required to produce 4 player split-screen. Still, 4 times what was in the 360 doesn't sound like much of a stretch, but I don't follow prices.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

There's no reason, if they are really going to have a system as large as the original 360.

Personally I think that's one of the silliest rumours floating around. Maybe the dev units are that size?

Wouldn't say no to the "snes shapes" rumour though, as long as it's japan/euro snes.

 

[brain_stew]

It may as well be, I think I've seen people post that in every Cafe thread so far.

Nintendo does like fast RAM, even if they tend to gimp the total amount. I don't think 1GB 512-bit GDDR5 unified system memory is out of the question. I'd be surprised to see them use more than that because this is Nintendo we are talking about, and less would essentially defeat the purpose of the rest of the hardware. And given the 360 comparisons, a small pool (16MB?) of eDRAM on the GPU might be thrown in too. Not sure what that adds to the price, but I know it's not cheap.

(Edit: And I guess Nintendo could go with XDR2, but isn't that a lot more expensive than GDDR5?)


You have to keep in mind that Nintendo isn't going to actually use 4850 chips, they are going to get a customized part based on R700 that is roughly equal to a 4850. It will probably be 40nm, and it could very well support OpenGL 4.1.

It's not unheard of, the 360 GPU had features that weren't available until the generation after the card it was based on.

A 512 bit bus!? Of course its out of the question, Nintendo aren't going to use a design that means they have to use 16 RAM chips in every revision of their system. 1GB of GDDR5 on a 128 bit bus with a nice ~20MB pool of dedicated memory (eDRAM or similar) will be enough to make sure memory bandwidth bottlenecks aren't an issue.

 

[AceBandage]

Personally I think that's one of the silliest rumours floating around. Maybe the dev units are that size?

Wouldn't say no to the "snes shapes" rumour though, as long as it's japan/euro snes.

The Cafe will have to have more active cooling than any Nintendo system before it. It makes sense that it'll likely also be the largest system they've also made because of this.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

The Cafe will have to have more active cooling than any Nintendo system before it. It makes sense that it'll likely also be the largest system they've also made because of this.

I dunno about that. True, this isn't going to be wii sized, but the tech in it is pretty mature stuff.

I'd look more towards the GC then the xbox, which was only that size because microsoft were racing to stop sony encroaching on their territory and didn't have enough time to do the kind of customised parts that are normally found in consoles, it was closer to the kind of off-the-shelf parts ign put together.

 

[herzogzwei1989]

Is it really dreaming to think Nintendo might use a customized variant of RV770 (Radeon 4870/4850) ? Also, I'm only counting on 1 GB of RAM memory....

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Nope, just sounds standard verging towards conservative on the gpu. Ram wise, 1gb of high quality ram for the system would be very nice.

 

[AceBandage]

I dunno about that. True, this isn't going to be wii sized, but the tech in it is pretty mature stuff.

I'd look more towards the GC then the xbox, which was only that size because microsoft were racing to stop sony encroaching on their territory and didn't have enough time to do the kind of customised parts that are normally found in consoles, it was closer to the kind of off-the-shelf parts ign put together.

There's no way something the size of the GC could keep a 4850 cool enough to run games.
Like I said before, the GameCube was freaking magic. There will never be another system like it.

Is it really dreaming to think Nintendo might use a customized variant of RV770 (Radeon 4870/4850) ? Also, I'm only counting on 1 GB of RAM memory....

Not dreaming, that's exactly what we've all been suggesting for ages now.

 

[brain_stew]

I dunno about that. True, this isn't going to be wii sized, but the tech in it is pretty mature stuff.

I'd look more towards the GC then the xbox, which was only that size because microsoft were racing to stop sony encroaching on their territory and didn't have enough time to do the kind of customised parts that are normally found in consoles, it was closer to the kind of off-the-shelf parts ign put together.

It will have to be much bigger than the GCN was. Think original PS2 size.

 

[chaosblade]

A 512 bit bus!?

I guess that is pretty unrealistic, but I doubt it would be less than 256. Unified RAM needs more bandwidth than standard VRAM doesn't it (I might be mistaken here though, fill me in if so!), and with less than a 256 bit bus you would probably get to the point where it's one of the bigger bottlenecks for 1080p games. That's assuming Nintendo is shooting for 1080p though.

Edit: Maybe that's not the case then, so consider me wrong!

 

[Minsc]

Is it really dreaming to think Nintendo might use a customized variant of RV770 (Radeon 4870/4850) ? Also, I'm only counting on 1 GB of RAM memory....

Thing that strikes me weird about that is I didn't even think that line of GPUs was still produced. I figured after they get a new series out, like they're on the 6000 series now (and will probably be in the 7000 series before Cafe is out), they generally stop producing the two before that, so 5000 series would be winding down, and 4000 series would be minimal/stopped.

There's a ton of power-saving features introduced with the 5000 series GPUs (not to mention improved audio over HDMI features) that make Nintendo's picking of a 4000-series one questionable too.

 

[Erebus]

Yes, of course the PS4/720 will be more powerful. They'll be launching a year to two after the Cafe.
However, it won't be as big of a difference as a lot of people think.

Even if they were released in the same year, they'd still be more powerful providing that Nintendo isn't gonna use what we call state-of-the-art technology on Project Cafe as it seems.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

It will have to be much bigger than the GCN was. Think original PS2 size.

Was the PS2 that much bigger then the GC? Not at home right now to be able to compare mine, but I'd have thought the GC's chubbiness would have made up for much of the PS2's length.

 

[brain_stew]

This rumor doesnt make sense, earlier ones mentioned that Cafe will be a little more powerful than current generation, but 4850 indicates that it could be even 4 times more powerful than x0/ps3.

BTW i dont get Nintendo. Why do they even consider R700 and especially 4850 [overcloaked 4770 would be smarter]? R800 are made in 40nm instead of 55nm like R700, has much efficient TDP, are still produced and has better instructions set [dx 11 so shaders 5.0, openCL 1.1 and OpenGL 4.1 [3.1 in r700] - 5770 is so much better solution.

5770 not only would be faster that 4850 [more ways to optimize and writing code], but wouldnt be outdated in next-generation like Wii is now.

Its simple, RV770 is AMD's most area efficient design of recent times. The process node that Nintendo chooses for their initial revision is independent of this.

 

[AceBandage]

Was the PS2 that much bigger then the GC? Not at home right now to be able to compare mine, but I'd have thought the GC's chubbiness would have made up for much of the PS2's length.

 

[Sir_Crocodile]

Oh, so it's about 1.5ish bigger then the gc? Bigger then I have it in my head.

Cheers for the pic.

 

[TouchMyBox]

Thing that strikes me weird about that is I didn't even think that line of GPUs was still produced. I figured after they get a new series out, like they're on the 6000 series now (and will probably be in the 7000 series before Cafe is out), they generally stop producing the two before that, so 5000 series would be winding down, and 4000 series would be minimal/stopped.

There's a ton of power-saving features introduced with the 5000 series GPUs (not to mention improved audio over HDMI features) that make Nintendo's picking of a 4000-series one questionable too.

Yeah, this has had me scratching my head too. It wasn't until the 5000 series that these cards got an acceptable idle power draw. I imagine that nintendo would be using the newest architecture at R700 specs.

 

[brain_stew]

I guess that is pretty unrealistic, but I doubt it would be less than 256. Unified RAM needs more bandwidth than standard VRAM doesn't it (I might be mistaken here though, fill me in if so!), and with a 256 bit bus you would probably get to the point where it's one of the bigger bottlenecks for 1080p games. That's assuming Nintendo is shooting for 1080p though.

You're still going to get 3-4x the bandwidth of the 360 and coupled with a larger embedded pool that's a more than sufficent increase in bandwidth for a GPU that is around 4x faster. Using a narrower memory bus is one of the best ways to reduce the cost of a console over its lifetime. It not only means a smaller die, it means lower board complexity and fewer RAM chips being necessary.

The CPU doesn't need all that much bandwidth.

 

[AceBandage]

Can I just say that brain_stew is the best part of these threads. Always.

 

[Lonely1]

But it doesn't have any significant effect on framerate, so why pay for the faster stuff? Serious question, as many a people smarter than me told me to stay away from buying more expensive, faster RAM, since it wouldn't change my gaming framerates, and the few non-memory sponsored benchmarks I found confirmed as much.

Because your GPU has the fast RAM pool covered. And those folks will tell you that GPU VRAM does affect framerate, specially in high ress/high AA scenarios.

 

[brain_stew]

Can I just say that brain_stew is the best part of these threads. Always.

There's far more knowledgable people than me that post in these threads.

 

[AceBandage]

There's far more knowledgable people than me that post in these threads.

None that are as active or that post as plainly as you, though.
I've learned a lot in these new console announcement threads mostly because of your posts.

 

[brain_stew]

Haha, oh god.

350 / 450 mhz core/vram clocks down from 700/900 , 256MB of gddr3 with a 64bit memory bus.
384MB of DDR2 ram.

That would pretty much put it in the 'slightly more powerful than 360' rumour ballpark, having it butchered like that.

I'd agree that 2GB gddr5 would be rather expensive btw, but is there any reason to go unified when you have plenty to begin with?

1GB gddr5, 2GB ddr3 ram (which is cheap as chips), believe.
Actually make that 3GB, so we can finally get some functionality out of those multiple cores...

Multitasking/ browser with tabs open during gameplay/ background apps like a music player and mumble.

Don't start with the 'then get a pc' bollox, the ps3 and psp have a browser and can play media but it's bloody useless because you can only do one thing at a time.

You're neglecting the cost of the increased board complexity in your "calculations". The cost of the actual RAM chips themselves is only one factor.

Remember, this is a system that must one day have a BOM under $100 and all decisions must be taken with that restriction in mind. Anything that means a larger and more complex motherboard and/or more memory chips (for the life of the system) is something you really want to try and avoid. Its such a critical part of console design but something that so many completely neglect to even consider.

 

[leadbelly]

Okay, so now it is looking somewhat better to me.

 

[whitehawk]

1gb of ram? I feel like the new systems should have 2gb minimum I mean, come on. The iPhone 4 has 512mb of ram. And there are other smartphones out there with 1gb of ram! come on!

 

[chaosblade]

You're still going to get 3-4x the bandwidth of the 360 and coupled with a larger embedded pool that's a more than sufficent increase in bandwidth for a GPU that is around 4x faster. Using a narrower memory bus is one of the best ways to reduce the cost of a console over its lifetime. It not only means a smaller die, it means lower board complexity and fewer RAM chips being necessary.

Thanks for making me feel like an idiot, ha! I hadn't even thought of that.

There's far more knowledgable people than me that post in these threads.

Not many, from what I've seen. Unfortunately most of the highly knowledgeable people are drowned out by those that think a console needs 3GB of DDR3 system memory and an Intel processor.

Edit: And I totally typed out this reply BEFORE I saw you quoted that post. That's hilarious.

 

[Lupin the Third]

I think it'll have 1.5GB of system memory. That seems like something Nintendo would do.

I suggested this earlier but was largely ignored.

 

[AceBandage]

1gb of ram? I feel like the new systems should have 2gb minimum I mean, come on. The iPhone 4 has 512mb of ram. And there are other smartphones out there with 1gb of ram! come on!

Again, not really comparable.
They use much slower RAM and a lot of it goes towards the OS and multitasking, which consoles won't be doing.

 

[ElFly]

I don't know if I would call this a generational leap. This is going to end up like an inbetween-gens console similar to the Dreamcast, although the Wii2 is much less of an improvement than the DC was over the PS1.

I wonder about this.

Dreamcast without Sega's financial/administrative problems could have survived a few years more.

 

[Mr_Brit]

You're neglecting the cost of the increased board complexity in your "calculations". The cost of the actual RAM chips themselves is only one factor.

Do you know how much the boards used in consoles cost? I'm guessing that they're pretty cheap as they don't have any expensive features like large CPU sockets, RAM sockets, expensive chipsets, 12 USB ports etc. I'm sure that board complexity costs aren't as pressing as other costs.

 

[Mr_Brit]

They're going to be using a newer process node and even at 55nm, that design could reliably hit 1g hz after a few tweaks (4890). Assuming it will be lower clocked than a 4850 is far from a safe assumption.

IGN asked for the closest PC part equivalents. If it was anywhere near 1GHZ then they would have suggested a 4890, not a 4850. Anyone expecting anything much higher than 600MHZ is going to be sorely disappointed. Nintendo also can't eat any big losses and the GPU is going to be the most expensive component so they'll want yields to be as high as possible.

 

[brain_stew]

As for whether this is a "generational leap" I think the point is academic. What matters is that it is now quite safe to say the Cafe will be closer to the Xbox 3 than tthe Xbox 360 and that's what matters.

 

[chaosblade]

IGN asked for the closest PC part equivalents. If it was anywhere near 1GHZ then they would have suggested a 4890, not a 4850. Anyone expecting anything much higher than 600MHZ is going to be sorely disappointed. Nintendo also can't eat any big losses and the GPU is going to be the most expensive component so they'll want yields to be as high as possible.

There could be factors other than clock speed involved. Even if the overall performance is closer to the 4850, it could have fewer shaders like the 4770 but with higher clocks to make up the difference, for example.

(Sorry for those that saw the screw up before the edit!)

 

[Mr_Brit]

There are more differences between the 4890 and 4850 than clock speed. Other factors could have been involved. Even if the overall performance is closer to the 4850, it could have fewer, higher clocked shaders to make up for it, as an example.

The only other difference is use of GDDR5 which the Wii 2 will most likely use anyway. The 4850/4870/4890 are all the same GPU in the sense that the GTX 570 and GTX 580 are the same GPU.

Fact is, if the core clock was much above 600MHZ the devs wouldn't have suggested a 4850 as an equivalent PC part.

 

[brain_stew]

Do you know how much the boards used in consoles cost? I'm guessing that they're pretty cheap as they don't have any expensive features like large CPU sockets, RAM sockets, expensive chipsets, 12 USB ports etc. I'm sure that board complexity costs aren't as pressing as other costs.

Its a huge factor when you consider that this system must one day have a BOM under $100. Silicon will always scale down, the amount of board traces and RAM chips needed won't.

How are you going to create a Wii sized slim revision if you need to fit in a big ass motherboard covered in RAM chips? DDR3 may be cheap now but in ~5 years its actually going to be more expensive then it is today as it will no longer be created in mass quantities (checked the prices of DDR memory lately?). Being forced to include 4/8/16 of those expensive DRAM chips is going to be avery significant proportion of costs at that time.

 

[richman555]

Nintendo also can't eat any big losses

Nintendo made gobs of money with the Wii and DS.

I believe they even made money with the Gamecube.

They could eat big losses, the question is do they want to.

Even Sony and MS may not eat losses next time around.