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Illinois District Violated Transgender Student’s Rights, U.S. Says

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ponpo

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http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/u...ated-transgender-students-rights-us-says.html

CHICAGO — Federal education authorities, staking out their firmest position yet on an increasingly contentious issue, found Monday that an Illinois school district violated anti-discrimination laws when it did not allow a transgender student who identifies as a girl and participates on a girls’ sports team to change and shower in the girls’ locker room without restrictions.

Education officials said the decision was the first of its kind on the rights of transgender students, which are emerging as a new cultural battleground in public schools across the country. In previous cases, federal officials had been able to reach settlements giving access to transgender students in similar situations. But in this instance, the school district in Palatine, Ill., has not yet come to an agreement, prompting the federal government to threaten sanctions. The district, northwest of Chicago, has indicated a willingness to fight for its policy in court.

The Education Department gave 30 days to the officials of Township High School District 211 to reach a solution or face enforcement, which could include administrative law proceedings or a Justice Department court action. The district could lose some or all of its Title IX funding.

In a letter sent Monday, the Office for Civil Rights of the Department of Education told the Palatine district that requiring a transgender student to use private changing and showering facilities was a violation of that student’s rights under Title IX, a federal law that bans sex discrimination. The student, who identifies as female but was born male, should be given unfettered access to girls’ facilities, the letter said.

“All students deserve the opportunity to participate equally in school programs and activities — this is a basic civil right,” Catherine Lhamon, the Education Department’s assistant secretary for civil rights, said in a statement. “Unfortunately, Township High School District 211 is not following the law because the district continues to deny a female student the right to use the girls’ locker room.”

Daniel Cates, the district superintendent, said in a statement Monday that he disagreed with the decision, which he described as “a serious overreach with precedent-setting implications.” In an interview, Dr. Cates said district officials had “worked long and hard” to develop a plan that the district believed would balance the rights of everyone involved. That plan entails having the student change beyond privacy curtains in the girls’ locker room.
...
Officials in the Palatine district, which serves more than 12,000 students, have framed their position as a middle ground. The transgender student in question plays on a girls’ sports team, is called “she” by school staff and is referred to by a female name. But the district, citing privacy concerns, had required her to change clothes and shower separately. The district said she was allowed to change inside the girls’ locker room, but only behind a curtain. The student, who has not been publicly identified, has said she would probably use that curtain to change. But she and the federal government have insisted that she be allowed to make that decision voluntarily, and not because of requirements by the district.

People here seem to be fine with bathroom use, so what about change rooms? Is the private facility thing a good compromise or not needed?

I wonder what students think / if they care.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
In before everyone acts like these people are monsters.

But it's very clear they are between a rock and a hard place.

They got to the basic position of respect:

The transgender student in question plays on a girls’ sports team, is called “she” by school staff and is referred to by a female name.

On a good start... but the issue of a born-with-male-genitalia girl showering with women.... I cannot imagine this question is easy for anyone unless they are ideologically strong in a particular direction. Let's be honest about that. This is a grey area, even for well meaning people, until we have some wide societal consensus which can guide us

Is the answer that gender identity trumps all other concerns and we move forward with that in all our gender-based decision-making? So be it. But you better pass that memo now, because it's not exactly common sense to most of the planet. It's not even a matter of ignorance. It's hard to make that very difficult call unless society is on our side with a precedent.

I might just advocate gender neutral change rooms to avoid this whole mess. Drawing lines around this issue is very very hard.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
If they are not legally a woman - I assume 'identified' means personally identifies as, not legally identifies as? Then I don't see how they could have let her shower with the girls in a communal setting. At what point is a persons own identification enough that a governing body should follow it? I didn't see anything about surgery so presumably she is still physically male?

Asking her to change in private sounds like a reasonable compromise - they didn't force her to go to the male changing room.

In cases like this I think there should be ways for you to change your identified gender legally. That way you have written recognition that you are - in this case a woman, and the college/body has reassurance that they can then use to apply normal practices to. How can it be sexual discrimination if their birth certificate says they are male?

It just seems like a no-win for the college. They ask her to change privately and are open to being sued. They allow her to change in with the other women and are surely also open to be sued by any of the women there that may claim they were forced to shower with what they considered a man? How do you cover your ass in situations like that?
 
Considering that a lawsuit filed complaining about a trans woman showering with cis women would be dismissed, that's not exactly a hard choice. For instance, someone could sue the University for not segregating by skin colour, but it doesn't mean that it has any worth.
 
If the government is going to force schools to have biologically male students shower with biologically female students, it defeats the purpose of having gender-specific facilities in the first place. If you're going that far, you might as well abolish having anything labeled as female and male.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
If the government is going to force schools to have biologically male students shower with biologically female students, it defeats the purpose of having gender-specific facilities in the first place. If you're going that far, you might as well abolish having anything labeled as female and male.

I'm tempted to agree.

If girls locker rooms can have people who are attracted to girls (lesbians and trans-lesbians) as well as people who are born with male genitalia, the whole need for gender segregation of bathrooms at all looks to be fundamentally challenged.
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
I'm tempted to agree.

If girls locker rooms can have people who are attracted to girls (lesbians and trans-lesbians) as well as people who are born with male genitalia, the whole need for gender segregation of bathrooms at all looks to be fundamentally challenged.

Agree too. I was trying to figure out the permutations but it gets too complex.

You can't even separate out gay men/women into a group because then technically a group of gays showering together could be considered inappropriate for the same reason you might not want gays showering alongside heterosexuals.

The only solution would appear to be either everyone changes together, or gets together. I love the ideal of unisex changing rooms, but certainly for school age I don't think people would be ready for that - especially at an age when your sensitivity to body image issues would be very high.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
Agree too. I was trying to figure out the permutations but it gets too complex.

You can't even separate out gay men/women into a group because then technically a group of gays showering together could be considered inappropriate for the same reason you might not want gays showering alongside heterosexuals.

The only solution would appear to be either everyone changes together, or gets together. I love the ideal of unisex changing rooms, but certainly for school age I don't think people would be ready for that - especially at an age when your sensitivity to body image issues would be very high.

It's a difficult situation.

I suppose it is more likely that trans people will be treated as exceptions that work within our old gender segreations, because the alternative is a far larger hurdle to overcome.
 
If they're going to make her change and shower behind a curtain, then it's only fair that everyone else does the same.

If she identifies a female, everyone treats her as female why does this even matter? As long as she's not trying to stick it into another girl, what's the problem?
 

mrklaw

MrArseFace
If they're going to make her change and shower behind a curtain, then it's only fair that everyone else does the same.

If she identifies a female, everyone treats her as female why does this even matter? As long as she's not trying to stick it into another girl, what's the problem?

For the college, I would expect they were worried that there is no legal documentation that says she is female. She identifies as female, the staff consider her female, she plays on a female team. But if one of those other girls raised a fuss, what would the college do? Legally she is a male.

Just feels like the college is on a lose-lose here and they genuinely looked to come up with a reasoned compromise. I'm surprised they were found guilty of sexual discrimination based on (apologies) someone simply declaring themselves a different gender.

I'm not disagreeing that they are - just that what level of due diligence is needed for the college to be able to properly act on it? Really difficult situation.



As for 'not sticking it in another girl' - what if this person identifies as female but also as gay? So they have the biological body of a male and is attracted to females,meet is asking to shower alongside females. Isn't it possible that may make some of the other women uncomfortable? I suppose it isn't a million miles from any gay woman showering with others?
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
If they're going to make her change and shower behind a curtain, then it's only fair that everyone else does the same.

If she identifies a female, everyone treats her as female why does this even matter? As long as she's not trying to stick it into another girl, what's the problem?

Well, if someone is a transgender girl, they may well be attracted to girls! Gender identity is completely unrelated to sexual attraction.

But then again, lesbians were already allowed in there.

It just kind of begs the question why we are segregating genders in the bathroom in the first place, because if "shielding them from the sexual advances of the opposite sex" is the motivation, that's way out the window now..
 

Pluto

Member
On a good start... but the issue of a born-with-male-genitalia girl showering with women.... I cannot imagine this question is easy for anyone unless they are ideologically strong in a particular direction. Let's be honest about that. This is a grey area, ...
I don't think it's a grey area at all, if a woman happens to have male genitalia that's a non-issue. If other women are uncomfortable with that they should be told so suck it up and deal with it, the same thing we tell straight men who whine about gay men showering with them. Morons not liking something or being uncomfortable with it is no reason to infringe on other people's rights.
America already tried "separate but equal", it didn't work and it was everything but equal, let's not go there again. Would it be okay if a black person had to change behind a curtain in a "white facility"? Of course not so this isn't okay either.
Now if she wants to use the curtain because she is uncomfortable that people might see her genitalia that don't for her actual gender that's perfectly fine, but she shouldn't be forced.

There's no need to find a consensus, people who have a problem with it should be forced to accept it, that's all.
 

BocoDragon

or, How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Realize This Assgrab is Delicious
I don't think it's a grey area at all, if a woman happens to have male genitalia that's a non-issue. If other women are uncomfortable with that they should be told so suck it up and deal with it, the same thing we tell straight men who whine about gay men showering with them. Morons not liking something or being uncomfortable with it is no reason to infringe on other people's rights.
America already tried "separate but equal", it didn't work and it was everything but equal, let's not go there again. Would it be okay if a black person had to change behind a curtain in a "white facility"? Of course not so this isn't okay either.
Now if she wants to use the curtain because she is uncomfortable that people might see her genitalia that don't for her actual gender that's perfectly fine, but she shouldn't be forced.

You aren't demonstrating how grey this issue clearly is. You're demonstrating how much you've taken a hard stance in a particular direction.... which, I would imagine is a convenience of being a certain age and being exposed to certain brand new ideas in society. Good for you, and it is an attitude that will be helpful in future society, but don't act like your acceptance of these ideas is "obvious". It's a difficult paradigm shift, nothing simple about it. Know this.

There's no need to find a consensus, people who have a problem with it should be forced to accept it, that's all.

That's pretty much what consensus is. Society popularly delivering an overwhelming message in one direction, so that precedent has been established and people can go along with what has clearly been signaled to decision-makers as "right".

I imagine the people in charge of making this decision would LOVE for the consensus of society to come along and "make them" go in one direction on this issue. That's what they need in order to easily make a decision. Because right now they're absolutely torn in two directions even if they'd love to give transgender people puppies and medals.

By all means please "force them" to make a decision. They'd love that. The issue isn't that they're bigots (if only life were that simple! "bad guys"; "bigots"! lol). It's that society is giving them conflicting messages about how to proceed, and they can't win no matter what they choose.
 

thekad

Banned
How do you square this with the idea of having gender specific bathrooms, locker rooms and showers at all?
 

Ahasverus

Member
I don't agree with biological male taking part in competitive female sports competition. I'm all for chance equality but body differences do exist.
 

DonasaurusRex

Online Ho Champ
what the hell is a federal education "authority?"

Thats a tough choice for a school to make, the personal subjective experience of the student may be "female" , but his objective physical morphology is male, what about all the other female students? They have rights as well. Gender may be female but how do you explain to other parents that a boy is showering with their daughters? What is the end game here and what is the ultimate good to do here? I think he can take a page from the faculties book they accomodate him he should accomodate them on this one thing. First of all its a public school , so by law the student is under the authority of the school since they are liable. There is no making a voluntary decision about it , when you register authority over the student/child transfers from teh parent to the school. I agree with the superintendent.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
This is a very difficult issue for which there is not an easy answer for.

Yup.sports is a tough one because the split makes most sense based on sex and not gender identity.

what the hell is a federal education "authority?"

Thats a tough choice for a school to make, the personal subjective experience of the student may be "female" , but his objective physical morphology is male, what about all the other female students? They have rights as well. Gender may be female but how do you explain to other parents that a boy is showering with their daughters? What is the end game here and what is the ultimate good to do here? I think he can take a page from the faculties book they accomodate him he should accomodate them on this one thing.

See i dont get this.
You call the student a he and then call the student a boy.

This one can be fixed with a bit of education.

In my own personal and privileged opinion the best solution might be for all public facilities to offer gender neutral bathrooms as well.

It questions gender separated bathrooms entirely. If you look gender ambiguous, how can you be denied access to either? Admins dont check ur genitals before going in to determine where you should go.

As a very open minded person i really dont know what the correct most objective answer is.
 

Platy

Member
I agree that she should be the one choosing. Chances are that she doesn't want anyone to see her naked either =P

Curtain allow her to be private and shower in a place that does not negate her identity
 

Red

Member
What difference does a communal shower make, anyway? I don't get what problem is being avoided by keeping males and females apart. Is it a morality thing?

I side with the student and the ruling. I don't see a problem with mixed locker rooms in the first place. I see a huge problem with denying a girl full access to a female locker room. You invalidate her. You can't treat her as a she and then when you get to a certain point hand her a curtain and say, well, not really.

People are so wrapped up in controlling genitals. I don't think I will ever be able to empathize with them. I don't get it.
 

thekad

Banned
What difference does a communal shower make, anyway? I don't get what problem is being avoided by keeping males and females apart. Is it a morality thing?

Are you saying you don't understand that females feel uncomfortable by the precense of men in those spaces or that you don't understand why?
 

Bowler

Member
Wouldn't the compromise be that it is a non issue if the girl gets the Transgender surgery?

This is a lose lose situation all the way around.
 

aeolist

Banned
what the hell is a federal education "authority?"

Thats a tough choice for a school to make, the personal subjective experience of the student may be "female" , but his objective physical morphology is male, what about all the other female students? They have rights as well. Gender may be female but how do you explain to other parents that a boy is showering with their daughters? What is the end game here and what is the ultimate good to do here? I think he can take a page from the faculties book they accomodate him he should accomodate them on this one thing. First of all its a public school , so by law the student is under the authority of the school since they are liable. There is no making a voluntary decision about it , when you register authority over the student/child transfers from teh parent to the school. I agree with the superintendent.

please use female pronouns when referring to women
 

Red

Member
Are you saying you don't understand that females feel uncomfortable by the precense of men in those spaces or that you don't understand why?
Is that it? I'm not saying communal showers should be enforced but I've never really got why seeing people naked–or even the idea of seeing people naked–gets people so upset. If you asked the school kids in this situation, why do you shower separately, do you think the girls would say it's because they feel unsafe around naked boys? (If yes, I think there are way more serious underlying issues than split locker rooms.)

Anyway, we're getting away from the point. PM me if you have more to say.
 

boiled goose

good with gravy
Is that it? I'm not saying communal showers should be enforced but I've never really got why seeing people naked–or even the idea of seeing people naked–gets people so upset. If you asked the school kids in this situation, why do you shower separately, do you think the girls would say it's because they feel unsafe around naked boys? (If yes, I think there are way more serious underlying issues than split locker rooms.)

Anyway, we're getting away from the point. PM me if you have more to say.

To be honest as a full grown very liberal straight man, i prefer gender separated bathrooms and showers.

Maybe it's just because im used to it.

Ultimately the goal is to try to be as accommodating to as many people as possible.

Morally, these questions are not trivial. We have to maximize happiness for everyone while not denying anyones basic rights.
 

WaffleTaco

Wants to outlaw technological innovation.
I'm not sure how I feel about this...I feel that she should have access to bathrooms and stuff like that...but I am not sure about the changing and showering...maybe if she is on hormones.
 

dity

Member
Good. I hate how people act like this is equivalent to some horny boy trying to get into the girl's locker room or something.
 
The only solution would appear to be either everyone changes together, or gets together.

Nah, they'll go the opposite route and everyone will have their own room with a lockable entrance in the future.

Changing rooms will be huge, costly, door-filled monstrosities... but they'll get the money from someone/where.
 

Amory

Member
"just get rid of gendered bathrooms"

fuck that. seriously, just fuck that whole idea. let transgender people use whatever bathroom they want to use, but having everyone in the same bathroom would be a mess

I'm for equal rights for transgendered people but the vast, vast majority of people like having separate facilities and we shouldn't try to change everything just to suit the minority
 

entremet

Member
"just get rid of gendered bathrooms"

fuck that. seriously, just fuck that whole idea. let transgender people use whatever bathroom they want to use, but having everyone in the same bathroom would be a mess

I'm for equal rights for transgendered people but the vast, vast majority of people like having separate facilities and we shouldn't try to change everything just to suit the minority

Agreed. Gendered bathrooms also exist for safety reasons. Good luck convincing 52 percent of the population to give up gendered bathrooms.

Again, I have no issues with transgendered using any bathroom they want.
 
I've never understood why people would be comfortable openly changing in front of each other in the first place, much less in middle or high school.

IMO, *everyone* should be changing behind privacy curtains.
 

Red

Member
I've never understood why people would be comfortable openly changing in front of each other in the first place, much less in middle or high school.

IMO, *everyone* should be changing behind privacy curtains.
This is the kind of thing I don't get. What's so scary about open changing rooms?
 

entremet

Member
I've never understood why people would be comfortable openly changing in front of each other in the first place, much less in middle or high school.

IMO, *everyone* should be changing behind privacy curtains.

It's not practical for space considerations. You will have to rebuild the locker room and schools are already struggling funding the basics.
 

dity

Member
Why would you prohibit the boy from using that locker room?
Some smartass always has to ask a question like this when topics like this are brought up, as if supporting trans* individuals means you want unisex-everything or the erasure of gender-split bathrooms/lockers altogether when that's not the case.

No, I won't be arguing with you.
 

andycapps

Member
"just get rid of gendered bathrooms"

fuck that. seriously, just fuck that whole idea. let transgender people use whatever bathroom they want to use, but having everyone in the same bathroom would be a mess

I'm for equal rights for transgendered people but the vast, vast majority of people like having separate facilities and we shouldn't try to change everything just to suit the minority

I agree.
 

Aikidoka

Member
I guess Mike Huckabee is finally going back to school.


Anyways, this sounds like great progress that I didn't expect to happen so soon
 
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