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[Simply Sarah]

I just want to cover a few things.

Some people have mentioned her legal status. I don't think that should really matter (and it's messier than you'd think) a ton, but the DoE release states the following:

Student A was born male and from a young age has identified as female. During her middle school years, Student A transitioned to living full-time as a young woman. Since then, she has presented a female appearance, completed a legal name change, obtained a passport reflecting a gender change, received a diagnosis of and treatment for gender and taken an ongoing course of hormone therapy.

Student A's parents contacted the School during her eighth-grade year to begin planning her transition to high school. The family and the School communicated extensively about issues such as Student A's name change, registration as a female, access to girls' restrooms and locker rooms, and eligibility for girls' athletics. The family also informed the School that Student A had been subjected to harassing comments in middle school when she used the boys' locker rooms.

So as much as there's a legal sense of gender this student is female.

As for privacy, DoE main suggestion is adding locations for any and all girls in the locker rooms to be able to change privately. Not a perfect solution for everyone, but it would at least give everyone the ability to keep private.

Finally, while it is true the DoE is forcing the issue it is only after months of trying to work out a solution with the school district. Was any acceptable solution to the DoE likely to require giving access to the girls' locker rooms? Yes. But the specifics were and still are open to discussion.

I don't agree with biological male taking part in competitive female sports competition. I'm all for chance equality but body differences do exist.

This isn't as significant as you'd think, especially in this specific case. HRT for trans women will rather quickly get rid of any of the muscle and other similar benefits of testosterone and in fact may result in lower T levels than cis women. Now, any skeletal changes that have occurred from T during puberty will still exist and those can't be entirely ignored, but on the other hand women naturally come in all sorts of shapes and sizes. Additionally, given the age of this student and the fact that she is already on HRT it is somewhat likely that any T-driven puberty changes are less than they'd be normally.

 

[thekad]

Some smartass always has to ask a question like this when topics like this are brought up, as if supporting trans* individuals means you want unisex-everything or the erasure of gender-split bathrooms/lockers altogether when that's not the case.

No, I won't be arguing with you.

If the comfort of the girls in the locker room and their parents is unimportant, then surely there has to be some other reason why split rooms should exist.

If you're unable to articulate a position, you could have just said so instead of resorting to ad hominem.

 

[Butterfly Witch]

I say hormones, because then at least she has secondary sex characteristics of girl, which would likely make cis-girls feel more comfortable.

You do know that hormones take years to do that, right? What about until then? How do we even judge that she would have enough? That's highly subjective and her rights shouldn't depend on subjective opinions.

Male and female genitalia

Hormones don't change your genitalia one way to the other.

 

[BigDug13]

I don't agree with biological male taking part in competitive female sports competition. I'm all for chance equality but body differences do exist.

Agree here as long as the competitor still has male parts producing testosterone. If they've had the surgery and enough time has passed where the hormone drugs and lack of testosterone has eliminated all competitive gender advantage, then go for it.

 

[Simply Sarah]

Agree here as long as the competitor still has male parts producing testosterone. If they've had the surgery and enough time has passed where the hormone drugs and lack of testosterone has eliminated all competitive gender advantage, then go for it.

It turns out that the parts don't actually matter. Part of HRT involves suppressing T levels to near zero, either through the effects of E alone or with the help of other anti-androgens. Also, while it's really neither here nor there, I should point out that women have T as well and there is some evidence to indicate that some?/many? top female athletes may have somewhat above average levels of T (don't ask me about cause and effect since I honestly have no idea), so the whole thing is a bit messy.

 

[eot]

"just get rid of gendered bathrooms"

fuck that. seriously, just fuck that whole idea. let transgender people use whatever bathroom they want to use, but having everyone in the same bathroom would be a mess

I'm for equal rights for transgendered people but the vast, vast majority of people like having separate facilities and we shouldn't try to change everything just to suit the minority

Yeah. It's like some people have forgotten what teenagers are like. People are insecure enough in same sex locker rooms, unisex ones would be a disaster. You can imagine a society where being nude isn't taboo at all, but you can't get there by flicking a switch. I also think it's strange to say that genetalia doesn't matter. You have the discomfort of everyone else in that locker room vs the discomfort of that person. She can't change in a separate room because that would be discrimination apparently.

If say a man shows up into an environment dominated by women that doesn't have a locker room for men, you wouldn't expect him to use the women's locker room, he'd change in private. That's not discrimination. And I get it, people think it's discrimination in this case because transgender women should be treated like any other woman. But if you have genetalia of the opposite sex you are different. Is it really wrong to recognise that a transgender woman that has a penis is different from a woman not born with a penis? When it then comes to a situation that largely concerns your genetalia you will then be treated differently. I don't think that's discriminatory, or demeaning. You have the genetalia you have and for most people that matters.

 

[BigDug13]

It turns out that the parts don't actually matter. Part of HRT involves suppressing T levels to near zero, either through the effects of E alone or with the help of other anti-androgens. Also, while it's really neither here nor there, I should point out that women have T as well and there is some evidence to indicate that some?/many? top female athletes may have somewhat above average levels of T (don't ask me about cause and effect since I honestly have no idea), so the whole thing is a bit messy.

Maybe a drug test then like regular athletes have to undergo , but one that checks for T levels? Shit I don't know. It's such a tough one to get right because of the nature of segregated gender sports competition.

 

[Volimar]

Yeah. It's like some people have forgotten what teenagers are like. People are insecure enough in same sex locker rooms, unisex ones would be a disaster. You can imagine a society where being nude isn't taboo at all, but you can't get there by flicking a switch. I also think it's strange to say that genetalia doesn't matter. You have the discomfort of everyone else in that locker room vs the discomfort of that person. She can't change in a separate room because that would be discrimination apparently.

If say a man shows up into an environment dominated by women that doesn't have a locker room for men, you wouldn't expect him to use the women's locker room, he'd change in private. That's not discrimination. And I get it, people think it's discrimination in this case because transgender women should be treated like any other woman. But if you have genetalia of the opposite sex you are different. Is it really wrong to recognise that a transgender woman that has a penis is different from a woman not born with a penis? When it then comes to a situation that largely concerns your genetalia you will then be treated differently. I don't think that's discriminatory, or demeaning. You have the genetalia you have and for most people that matters.

Not to mention that sexual harrassment and sexual assaults are rampant and woefully underreported high school. Even without people's (largely ignorant and unfounded) concerns about trans individuals, unisex bathrooms would be a disaster.

 

[dity]

If the comfort of the girls in the locker room and their parents is unimportant, then surely there has to be some other reason why split rooms should exist.

If you're unable to articulate a position, you could have just said so instead of resorting to ad hominem.

Hey, I'm not the one trying to start arguments here. I was just popping in to make an observation and share my support of this decision. Seemed to me like you were desperate for one, and you still are. Sorry, not interested.

 

[Timeaisis]

This is one of these issues that belies common sense. It's not clear cut, and very informed people could come up with vastly different decisions to what is acceptable. Also, it's worth noting that the school was kind of screwed either way, which speaks to the state of this issue.

I'm at a loss, and I see no obvious solution here.

Would you like to know more?

Hah, I thought of this too after reading the first page.

 

[Butterfly Witch]

Yeah. It's like some people have forgotten what teenagers are like. People are insecure enough in same sex locker rooms, unisex ones would be a disaster. You can imagine a society where being nude isn't taboo at all, but you can't get there by flicking a switch. I also think it's strange to say that genetalia doesn't matter. You have the discomfort of everyone else in that locker room vs the discomfort of that person. She can't change in a separate room because that would be discrimination apparently.

If say a man shows up into an environment dominated by women that doesn't have a locker room for men, you wouldn't expect him to use the women's locker room, he'd change in private. That's not discrimination. And I get it, people think it's discrimination in this case because transgender women should be treated like any other woman. But if you have genetalia of the opposite sex you are different. Is it really wrong to recognise that a transgender woman that has a penis is different from a woman not born with a penis? When it then comes to a situation that largely concerns your genetalia you will then be treated differently. I don't think that's discriminatory, or demeaning. You have the genetalia you have and for most people that matters.

Genitalia doesn't matter because genitalia doesn't determine anything about how you may or may not act.

The problem comes from the line of thought that "If penis, then men, therefore attracted to women" but it completely misses the point when you put it up to any kind of scrutiny in a modern society where sexuality isn't limited to heterosexuality.

Just because she has a penis it doesn't mean that she's a lesbian or that she's going to stare at any other girl's body any more than any other heterosexual woman does. It is demeaning because it implies "equal but separate" and it also pressures trans folk to get an extremely expensive surgery that is both dangerous, unnecessary and almost never covered by health insurances.

 

[Simply Sarah]

Maybe a drug test then like regular athletes have to undergo , but one that checks for T levels? Shit I don't know. It's such a tough one to get right because of the nature of segregated gender sports competition.

It's a rough situation and is something that I think all levels of athletics have had trouble dealing with. International athletics especially have run into issues with women with above average T levels and/or potentially some forms of intersex conditions (which, while different from being trans, can run into some of the same issues of who counts as a man and who counts as a woman for competition purposes). See Caster Semenya, for example.

I honestly don't have an answer. A lot of potential solutions, like setting a max T level, can create other issues such as potentially making cis women need to artificially lower their T if for some reason they end up above it. This wouldn't be a common situation, obviously, but top level trans athletes aren't very common either. And anything below top level just gets even more complicated.

 

[Aikidoka]

Yeah. It's like some people have forgotten what teenagers are like. People are insecure enough in same sex locker rooms, unisex ones would be a disaster. You can imagine a society where being nude isn't taboo at all, but you can't get there by flicking a switch. I also think it's strange to say that genetalia doesn't matter. You have the discomfort of everyone else in that locker room vs the discomfort of that person. She can't change in a separate room because that would be discrimination apparently.

If say a man shows up into an environment dominated by women that doesn't have a locker room for men, you wouldn't expect him to use the women's locker room, he'd change in private. That's not discrimination. And I get it, people think it's discrimination in this case because transgender women should be treated like any other woman. But if you have genetalia of the opposite sex you are different. Is it really wrong to recognise that a transgender woman that has a penis is different from a woman not born with a penis? When it then comes to a situation that largely concerns your genetalia you will then be treated differently. I don't think that's discriminatory, or demeaning. You have the genetalia you have and for most people that matters.

Why are you so obsessed with dicks?

 

[thekad]

I was just popping in

Yeah, we've seen you can't actually defend your stances. No need to continue posting.

 

[Box of Kittens]

If the comfort of the girls in the locker room and their parents is unimportant, then surely there has to be some other reason why split rooms should exist.

If you're unable to articulate a position, you could have just said so instead of resorting to ad hominem.

You should refrain from throwing out accusations of "ad hominem" when you don't know what it actually means.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

"WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE OUR DAUGHTERS TO HAVE TO BE NEAR A NAKED WOMAN I THINK LOOKS LIKE A MAN."

... So you'll force another family's daughter to shower entirely with men?

The issue with "safe spaces for 'biological' women!" is that you're taking away all of those possible spaces from trans women. It's half-baked logic at the most generous of interpretations.

 

[thekad]

You should refrain from throwing out accusations of "ad hominem" when you don't know what it actually means.

ad hominem

(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

smartass

a person who is irritating because they behave as if they know everything.

Nice try though.

"WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE OUR DAUGHTERS TO HAVE TO BE NEAR A NAKED WOMAN I THINK LOOKS LIKE A MAN."

... So you'll force another family's daughter to shower entirely with men?

The issue with "safe spaces for 'biological' women!" is that you're taking away all of those possible spaces from trans women. It's half-baked logic at the most generous of interpretations.

Why should those spaces be taken away from anyone of any gender?

 

[Box of Kittens]

ad hominem

(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

smartass

a person who is irritating because they behave as if they know everything.

Nice try though.

Sorry, calling you a smartass does not make it an ad hominem. It would be an ad hominem if someone said something like "everybody knows you're a smartass, so why should we listen to you" but the post you were responding to did nothing of the sort.

 

[mrklaw]

This is the kind of thing I don't get. What's so scary about open changing rooms?

Society in many countries make people uncomfortable being naked around each other - even the same sex let alone the opposite. Add in adolescence and body image insecurity as their bodies are changing, and it seems entirely understandable that people would not want mixed sex changing rooms.

I'm not saying that is good - it would be great if you could get to a position where people didn't care (I bet you could have communal changing for under 10's and they wouldn't give a shit) but that would take concerted effort and a societal shift.

 

[Vincent Grayson]

This is the kind of thing I don't get. What's so scary about open changing rooms?

Being negatively judged by your peers in what is arguably the time in your life where you're most likely to be teased/mocked for any body issues obvious to the naked eye.

I just never saw the appeal of being naked in front of people I'm not having sex with.

 

[eot]

... So you'll force another family's daughter to shower entirely with men?

They weren't doing that.

 

[Gamerloid]

This grey area only exist because of negligence looking into the whole transgender issue. If society wants to make it acceptable to identify as whatever sex you want instead of the sex you are, then you simply have to go all the way. If you want to say a man is a woman because he identifies as one, then the ladies room is for him. Showers, sports, changing rooms, etc.

"WE DON'T WANT TO HAVE OUR DAUGHTERS TO HAVE TO BE NEAR A NAKED WOMAN I THINK LOOKS LIKE A MAN."

... and is a man.

 

[Cloyster]

A lot of people really care about genitals, huh?

I wonder what the response would be if there was a hermaphroditic woman in the changing room, who looked a lot like a girl, but happened to have a penis.

 

[GovtPlates]

Why should those spaces be taken away from anyone of any gender?

Why do cis women need spaces separate from trans women? How do trans women violate a women's safe space simply by being there?

 

[besada]

I say hormones, because then at least she has secondary sex characteristics of girl, which would likely make cis-girls feel more comfortable.

The student, who has identified as a girl from a young age, has changed her name, received a passport as a female and is undergoing hormone therapy, the Education Department said.

She is.

 

[Brian Griffin]

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/03/u...ated-transgender-students-rights-us-says.html



People here seem to be fine with bathroom use, so what about change rooms? Is the private facility thing a good compromise or not needed?

I wonder what students think / if they care.

Trans people using locker rooms is fine. You shouldn't be checking out people's junk in change rooms anyway so what they have is irrelevant. Private facilities could be made available but using them should be by choice and not force.

 

[How About No]

This grey area only exist because of negligence looking into the whole transgender issue. If society wants to make it acceptable to identify as whatever sex you want instead of the sex you are, then you simply have to go all the way. If you want to say a man is a woman because he identifies as one, then the ladies room is for him. Showers, sports, changing rooms, etc.

... and is a man.

You don't identify as a sex. You identify with a gender. She is not a man, even if she is biologically male.

 

[emag]

Why do cis women need spaces separate from trans women? How do trans women violate a women's safe space simply by being there?

Why do cis women/girls need spaces separate from cis men/boys (heterosexual or homosexual)?

This is not a simple issue.

 

[Red]

Being negatively judged by your peers in what is arguably the time in your life where you're most likely to be teased/mocked for any body issues obvious to the naked eye.

I just never saw the appeal of being naked in front of people I'm not having sex with.

It's not supposed to be appealing. But I've never found it scary or uncomfortable. I'm not advocating for unisex rest areas. I wouldn't mind them but I wouldn't propose them being enforced for anyone else. I am questioning why people are so offended by nakedness.

I guess by using that word, "appeal," you give away the voyeuristic or exhibitionist fears that many people have about issues like this. It shouldn't be appealing. It shouldn't be anything.

I tend to see social norms as handed down by a patriarchy. That's why I asked if the gender separation bias was a morality thing. Someone suggested it was because women are uncomfortable around naked men. I doubt gender segregation exist as a concession to those concerns. I think when things like that are supposed as explanations for gender segregation, it is a way for the mind to fill in the rational gaps left by things that feel good emotionally. Gender separation resonates with people. It feels right. So we find reasons to justify it.

I think gender segregation is very much a social bias. Other cultures have not put so much emphasis on this. I think it is driven by a predominant Puritan bias in US culture. But I don't know the full history of things like the Roman baths, so I am speculating. I know nudity has not always been as taboo as it is today, and is not taboo even today in many parts of the world. So when things like "it makes women uncomfortable" are used as the underlying reason for separating by sex, I question why that is.

 

[Henkka]

As an alternate solution, I suppose you could have everyone change in the same room. Maybe install curtains.

Another would be to separate the rooms by genitalia instead of gender identity... I mean, that's kinda what they're for anyway. Gender being separate from your body parts has only become a mainstream idea relatively recently.

 

[Brian Griffin]

As an alternate solution, I suppose you could have everyone change in the same room. Maybe install curtains.

Another would be to separate the rooms by genitalia instead of gender identity... I mean, that's kinda what they're for anyway. Gender being separate from your body parts has only become a mainstream idea relatively recently.

No. This always gets suggested and it's always a terrible idea because it would force people to reveal what junk they have, unlike the current system which divides people up by the parts of their body others can actually see most of the time.

 

[ZealousD]

Anytime the topic is on transgender individuals the issue is not simple. I really don't see the need in castigating anybody on trans issues unless people are expreasedly being hateful. A school trying to find a compromise is not something to get in arms about.

 

[Henkka]

No. This always gets suggested and it's always a terrible idea because it would force people to reveal what junk they have, unlike the current system which divides people up by the parts of their body others can actually see most of the time.

You reveal your junk in a changing room, no matter how it's divided. The only way not to would be to have everyone behind a curtain.

 

[FLAguy954]

Saying it doesn't make it true.

Exactly. What the fuck am I reading?

 

[davidbloop]

I honestly don't know how I feel or what I think should be done at all in this scenario.

 

[Gamerloid]

She is.

-Identified as female at a young age
-Undergoing hormone treatment
-Uses a new name to match
-Has a passport issued as a woman

How do you have a list like that and something like a bathroom is the issue?

You don't identify as a sex. You identify with a gender. She is not a man, even if she is biologically male.

Just say she doesn't identify as a man, even if she is biologically male. It's the only way that will ever make sense.

 

[besada]

-Identified as female at a young age
-Undergoing hormone treatment
-Uses a new name to match
-Has a passport issued as a woman

How do you have a list like that and something like a bathroom is the issue?

Because the school made it an issue, rather than treating her like a woman.

 

[Simply Sarah]

-Identified as female at a young age
-Undergoing hormone treatment
-Uses a new name to match
-Has a passport issued as a woman

How do you have a list like that and something like a bathroom is the issue?


Just say she doesn't identify as a man, even if she is biologically male. It's the only way that will ever make sense.

Actually, the bathroom and everything else has apparently been fine. This has been limited entirely to the locker rooms, although their initial solution was to have to check in a standalone single occupant restroom.

 

[thekad]

Why do cis women need spaces separate from trans women? How do trans women violate a women's safe space simply by being there?

Ask the same question by replacing "trans women" with "men"

 

[Lesath]

Ask the same question by replacing "trans women" with "men"

While we're on a roll with the shitty equivalencies, let's ask the same question by replacing "trans women" with "the Incredible Hulk" because that's just as stupid but ten times more awesome.

 

[Tenebrous]

As she's not had an operation, then letting her onto a girls sports team is wrong.

It's probably bad that's what I'm focused on more than anything else, but sports are at their best when they're fair.

 

[CrocMother]

As she's not had an operation, then letting her onto a girls sports team is wrong.

It's probably bad that's what I'm focused on more than anything else, but sports are at their best when they're fair.

This is high school sports we are talking about here, not the fucking olympics. Why would you deny her simple things that could make her feel a lot better about an obviously difficult situation.

 

[thekad]

While we're on a roll with the shitty equivalencies, let's ask the same question by replacing "trans women" with "the Incredible Hulk" because that's just as stupid but ten times more awesome.

This is probably the worst post ever. Good job.

This is high school sports we are talking about here, not the fucking olympics. Why would you deny her simple things that could make her feel a lot better about an obviously difficult situation.

You're denying the other girls a fair playing field.

 

[ScatheZombie]

If the government is going to force schools to have biologically male students shower with biologically female students, it defeats the purpose of having gender-specific facilities in the first place. If you're going that far, you might as well abolish having anything labeled as female and male.

I like how when people are expected to use common sense and human decency regarding the 0.1% of the population that is transgender, the response is to instead just throw everyone together - including the 99.9% cis-gendered individuals, 95% of whom are heterosexual - because there's no difference between a female with male genitalia and a heterosexual man.

Jesus Christ.

 

[Lesath]

This is probably the worst post ever. Good job.

What, did you think your point was strong enough to actually warrant a serious response?

 

[Mailbox]

Ask the same question by replacing "trans women" with "men"

Transphobic I see.

A transwoman isn't a man, period.
If you can't understand the difference between cis and trans, then you should educate yourself quickly.

Edit: so I'm extra clear, stop conflating male and man, stop conflating trans people with fear of cis counterparts, and stop making horrible comparisons. You are wrong

 

[thekad]

What, did you think your point was strong enough to actually warrant a serious response?

The problem, of course, is you're incapable of forming a serious response. Probably best you continue making terrible attempts at jokes.

I like how when people are expected to use common sense and human decency regarding the 0.1% of the population that is transgender, the response is to instead just throw everyone together - including the 99.9% cis-gendered individuals, 95% of whom are heterosexual - because there's no difference between a female with male genitalia and a heterosexual man.

Jesus Christ.

Who has said there is no difference between a transgender woman and a man? The issue is why you would even separate those spaces at all if the feelings of the people in them are irrelevant. No one has answered that question. Yes, throw them all together.

 

[ScatheZombie]

Who has said there is no difference between a transgender woman and a man? The issue is why you would even separate those spaces at all if the feelings of the people in them are irrelevant. No one has answered that question. Yes, throw them all together.

The primary reason for the sexual segregation of rest rooms and changing rooms is safety, not feelings.

Women are not less safe because one of the women in the changing room happens to have a penis. Women are less safe if half of the room are heterosexual men.

 

[Mailbox]

The problem, of course, is you're incapable of forming a serious response. Probably best you continue making terrible attempts at jokes.



Who has said there is no difference between a transgender woman and a man? The issue is why you would even separate those spaces at all if the feelings of the people in them are irrelevant. No one has answered that question. Yes, throw them all together.

Let me answer then.
Because lumping men and women in the same changing and washing facilities would be chaos. Absolute chaos. Mostly emotionally and psychologically. However, the idea that trans people should be the exception to this idea and that they don't matter and should be put in the facility or be forced away from the genders they define as is barbaric.

People used to think think that race specific water fountains were fair and appropriate, they were wrong. And so are you.

Also read the post above mine.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

As she's not had an operation, then letting her onto a girls sports team is wrong.

It's probably bad that's what I'm focused on more than anything else, but sports are at their best when they're fair.

A sex reassignment operation doesn't matter as long as she is taking HRT, which as someone pointed out:

Student A was born male and from a young age has identified as female. During her middle school years, Student A transitioned to living full-time as a young woman. Since then, she has presented a female appearance, completed a legal name change, obtained a passport reflecting a gender change, received a diagnosis of and treatment for gender and taken an ongoing course of hormone therapy.

She is doing that. That means she's taking testosterone blockers, in this case she likely started on puberty blockers earlier, and taking estrogen so her body's testosterone count is less than or equal to that of a ciswoman.

Considering this started around middle school, she likely started just before or shortly after she started puberty. In this case her body wouldn't been effected much by testosterone and it wouldn't have been shaped by it either. She would go through a female puberty.