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[hinch7]

I've argued many times how RT is a complete waste of resources.
Here's a comparison of CyberPunk which is "the best" Ray-Tracing has to offer on PC.

No RT

RT

Path Tracing

More can be found here:

The game was built with rasterisation in mind and thus assets. Still, in the last screenshot with PT, looks a generation apart. When you add character models in the mix, its not even a question.

 

[AMC124c41]

Nanite or other unlimited detail systems should be the next push. That’s how we get graphics like the Land of Nanite demo, and The Matrix demo.

Lighting/shadow enhancements does very little to the final image.

I have one better for you, just leave the game assets in greybox state but add millions of polygons onscreen, that's gonna make things look great :\

As this video demonstrates lighting and shadow make absolutely no difference and devs should absolutely stop trying to improve these areas:

 

[Fahdis]

Advanced physics or gtfo.

 

[bitbydeath]

I have one better for you, just leave the game assets in greybox state but add millions of polygons onscreen, that's gonna make things look great :\

As this video demonstrates lighting and shadow make absolutely no difference and devs should absolutely stop trying to improve these areas:

Joke post?
That’s obviously using different textures.
Hence the different textures.

 

[bitbydeath]

The game was built with rasterisation in mind and thus assets. Still, in the last screenshot with PT, looks a generation apart. When you add character models in the mix, its not even a question.

A PC generation maybe.
It’s not even close to what a console generation achieves.

 

[AMC124c41]

Joke post?
That’s obviously using different textures.
Hence the different textures.

Semi-joke post, they had to change the materials to make a game from 1997 work with ray tracing. The point I was making is that lighting and shadowing makes the biggest difference on how a game looks and just throwing more geometry at a scene is not going to make it look better if the lighting is flat and the shadowing sucks.

 

[DinoD]

Imagine the scenario where someone went comatose around the time of "BC Quest for Tires". Waking up to "Horizon Forbidden West" on PS5

 

[bitbydeath]

Semi-joke post, they had to change the materials to make a game from 1997 work with ray tracing. The point I was making is that lighting and shadowing makes the biggest difference on how a game looks and just throwing more geometry at a scene is not going to make it look better if the lighting is flat and the shadowing sucks.

The better textures is the real improvement in the video. If it had RT or not wouldn’t make much difference. IMO

 

[EverydayBeast]

Was impressed with PS5’s speed, quick resume, we’ve seen gaming become massive in the last four years.

 

[Naked Lunch]

Its all buzzword junk.
There can - and never will be - another 2D to 3D jump.
The only thing left was to shoot for 60fps on consoles.

Now its time for devs to develop actual good games again - thats the real problem.

 

[ReBurn]

Let's all go back to ps1 and Saturn !!

I'm unironically on board

 

[lh032]

if you play games just for technological advancement purpose, thats kinda sad.

 

[Justin9mm]

In regards to HDR and Ray tracing, I firmly believe those who say that they "don't do much" or are a "waste of time" haven't properly seen decent HDR on a proper HDR display, and haven't seen Ray Tracing at it's full potential when implemented properly. The issue isn't the tech, it's the developers not implementing it properly most of the time.

I really hate Ubisoft as a dev, but for some reason, they are one of the few devs that somehow manage to get HDR right in their games and it looks amazing! Go figure!

 

[iamvin22]

if you play games just for technological advancement purpose, thats kinda sad.

The problem is the tech isn't being used properly or just isn't being used at all.

 

[Felessan]

Ray tracing is the most over rated technology, hardly noticeable sometimes, and waste of resources.

RT/PT is a huge difference, but it's just too expensive for current level of tech on most cards.
The quality of GI, lights, shadows, reflections etc are just another level and picture looks much more real compared to no-RT IF you have a power to support it.
In Wukong no-RT and full-RT is very noticable difference, fps dip is huge though.

 

[littlezoo]

CP2077 path tracing still has the best lighting in gaming history

 

[Pandawan]

what you are seeing with uncharted vs indiana jones is a budget issue. XXL budget vs smedium budget. nothing to do with compute or gpu.

Even taking this into account, my example is still indicative!

8 years have passed! A high-budget game from 2016 still looks better than a mid-budget game from 2024.

20 years ago, this was unimaginable.

A high-budget game from 1999 was perceived as outdated compared to even low-budget games from 2007.

 

[bbeach123]

Path tracing feel like a layer of 240p resolution lighting upscaled to 1440p(your game resolution) then apply to the scene , its look fine if you/objects (or the lighting ) stand still but as soon as the lighting (or obj) moving/changing its became broken af . Shit blurry , lost of details , ghosting, , etc.

Depend on scene and game its vary from playable to un-fucking-playable . For exam in cyberpunk in scene where lots of npcs walking around , around 6pm. its look freaking terrible , even at 1440p dlss quality . The game feel like 720p

You trade image quality for better lighting .

 

[Kenpachii]

Most meaningful technology in the last 10 years for me.

- Pathtracing changed the game, no more buggy shadows, flickering, shitty water pools, and lightning that doesn't interact with anything.
- DLSS, finally something that looks good and kills all shimmering and also increases performance
- Framegen, finally something that pushes over cpu bottlenecks when your pc just is a bit to short on performance.

 

[Ironman_Bad]

Every game should be mandated minimum 1440p-4k 60 frames as a baseline then the device can add as many gimmick features as they can to fit into that criteria

 

[hinch7]

Path tracing feel like a layer of 240p resolution lighting upscaled to 1440p(your game resolution) then apply to the scene , its look fine if you/objects (or the lighting ) stand still but as soon as the lighting (or obj) moving/changing its became broken af . Shit blurry , lost of details , ghosting, , etc.

Depend on scene and game its vary from playable to un-fucking-playable . For exam in cyberpunk in scene where lots of npcs walking around , around 6pm. its look freaking terrible , even at 1440p dlss quality . The game feel like 720p

You trade image quality for better lighting .

DLSS, FSR and XeSS at 1440P is pretty bad no matter the quality. I gamed on a 1440P monitor for years on PC and its either native and/or with TAA/DLAA.

Heck I'd rather use spatial upscaling like NIS at that res. Using DLSS at 1440P at that makes the image so soft, even with Quality (960P iirc) and terrible in motion - not enough data. DLSS kinda starts getting good at 4K with performance and gets considerably better from there.

 

[Bert Big Balls]

Same with everything now. Smart phones have reached the peak, there's not much else to innovate, which is why it just gets a bit more powerful with a better camera each year. Upgrades to tech now just feel so small compared to the huge leaps we used to have.

 

[AMC124c41]

The better textures is the real improvement in the video. If it had RT or not wouldn’t make much difference. IMO

Okay, you're entitled to your opinion but now I need to ask you, are you joke posting? Lighting is the single most important element in paintings, movies, video games, etc. Every piece of entertainment you've ever consumed has had a very well thought out art direction in which light plays a key role.
Here's another example of light changing the look of a game completely:

 

[Stooky]

Even taking this into account, my example is still indicative!

8 years have passed! A high-budget game from 2016 still looks better than a mid-budget game from 2024.

20 years ago, this was unimaginable.

A high-budget game from 1999 was perceived as outdated compared to even low-budget games from 2007.

your comparisons are wild. 1999 to 2007 dvd to blu-ray was a huge upgrade alone. Machine Games has never made a game visually on par with ND and it probably wasn’t their goal. budget plays a part in that.

 

[Ironman_Bad]

I agree op.whwn I turn on RT in cyberpunk I can't tell the difference with it on or off. I'll switch back and forth to see but can't tell.

What I can tell is the frame rate tank. Baked lightening and light sources etc without ray tracing is perfectly fine.

Agreed 100% people love gimmicks and gotta justify thousand dollars gpus though

 

[cireza]

 

[Assaulty]

RT is just too heavy on the GPU for the gain you get.

IMO, especially on OLED, HDR is a lot more noticable than RT and with no dips in your framerate. I think Alan wake 2 and Returnal are great examples of games that really come to life when you switch HDR on (especially on an oled). I do agree that HDR implementation leaves a lot to be desired most of the time and when I was still on an IPS I didn't really think HDR was worth the toggle.

 

[bitbydeath]

Okay, you're entitled to your opinion but now I need to ask you, are you joke posting? Lighting is the single most important element in paintings, movies, video games, etc. Every piece of entertainment you've ever consumed has had a very well thought out art direction in which light plays a key role.
Here's another example of light changing the look of a game completely:

It’s just added lighting, it doesn’t do anything for me.

 

[Drew1440]

I feel devs can take a lot more advantage of current hardware, but time and developments cost are a huge roadblock. And then you have the Aloy example posted earlier, is that level of detail really necessary? Ray tracing is very expensive to process, but so was anti-aliasing in the fifth and sixth generation of consoles.

Same with everything now. Smart phones have reached the peak, there's not much else to innovate, which is why it just gets a bit more powerful with a better camera each year. Upgrades to tech now just feel so small compared to the huge leaps we used to have.

Not in the Android space, foldable display tech is promising and will be interesting to see the new form factors it can provide.

 

[AMC124c41]

It’s just added lighting, it doesn’t do anything for me.

You do you my guy I'm just going to leave this small chunk of a university course on game development to underline my point that whether you care or not, carefully directed and arted lighting has underpinned every video game you've ever played:

"Lighting in games goes beyond just looking realistic. It’s a powerful tool that shapes how players feel and experience the game. Different lighting styles take us to different worlds, from realistic to fantastical.

In realistic games, lighting mimics real-world behaviour using accurate physics and rendering. Natural light sources like sunlight and moonlight create believable environments. An example is the immersive Wild West in “Red Dead Redemption 2.”

Stylized games don’t aim for realism. Instead, they use exaggerated colours, unique shading, and creative light sources to create distinctive visuals. The vibrant, cel-shaded world of “Borderlands” is a great example.

Atmospheric lighting focuses on creating specific emotions through color, intensity, contrast, and effects like volumetric lighting. “Dark Souls” uses dark, moody lighting to match its challenging gameplay and gothic setting.

• Horror. Uses stark contrasts, limited light, and desaturated colours (e.g., “Amnesia: The Dark Descent”).
• Fantasy. Features magical glows and ethereal light (e.g., “Ori and the Will of the Wisps”).
• Sci-Fi. Includes neon lights, holographic displays, and sterile lighting (e.g., “Cyberpunk 2077”).
• Western. Highlights warm sunsets and campfires (e.g., “Red Dead Redemption 2”).
• Noir. Uses dramatic shadows and smoke (e.g., “L.A. Noire”).

By understanding these different styles, game artists can create immersive worlds that resonate with players and elevate their games.

Whether you’re new to game art or have years of experience, mastering lighting can greatly enhance your creativity and storytelling. Here are some key tips:

Lighting as a Core Element​

Treat lighting as a vital part of your game’s visual design, not an afterthought. Plan for lighting early, from concept art to level design. Consider how light will affect your environments, characters, and objects to make better decisions about materials, textures, and gameplay."

I'm not going to take this any further as it seems academic at this point but I hope you understand where my comments were coming from now

 

[OmegaSupreme]

I feel like HDR is in a mostly great place now. It greatly adds to the experience most of the time. Ray tracing can be great but the hardware to truly run it flat out is still too expensive.

 

[_Ex_]

In the '90s we went from playing NES to playing Dreamcast. I feel OP's pain.

 

[Horseganador]

Well, you're going to get more fed up with it in the future, we've reached a point where, due to technology, cost and time, the graphical leaps will be increasingly smaller.

 

[Schmendrick]

lighting/shadow enhancements does very little to the final image.

horrendous bullshit

Here is a good example of turning off Lumen in the Matrix Awakens demo.

It's not just the added shadows and AO, but you can see the whole level take on the orange tint of the sunlight. So everyone saying just turn off lumen in linear games is probably not understanding just how much you can lose in each scene. He actually turned off Lumen in his Silent Hill 2 video and the game went from looking amazing to last gen as fuck.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

In the '90s we went from playing NES to playing Dreamcast. I feel OP's pain.

That’s 1990 to 1999 (which was actually SNES to Dreamcast). Let’s at least compare whatever is out in 2029 to the PS5/Series X before declaring “pain”.

 

[bitbydeath]

horrendous bullshit

Lumen is just the lighting.
Nanite is why the graphics are so good, if you didn’t get why that toggle was doing much.

 

[_Ex_]

That’s 1990 to 1999 (which was actually SNES to Dreamcast).

SNES to Dreamcast is still more technical advancement in gaming, then we have seen in the past twenty years of this medium.

 

[Zacfoldor]

The duality of man.

I keep hearing one of two things. Either stop focusing on graphics or heavily focus on graphics. Kinda like short games vs long games, not sure which one gaf wants.

One thing is for sure, this is a big change from a decade ago. Diminishing returns have hit graphics people hard and they have not yet accepted it, instead chasing marginally better graphics with obscene graphics cards that cost 2000 dollars. I think 2015 was the year we hit the wall.

 

[CompleteGlobalSaturation]

CP2077 path tracing still has the best lighting in gaming history

Now this looks next gen - what mods?

Vanilla game looks very meh IMO!

 

[Shake Your Rump]

I think once we properly implement all these features you hate you'll be windblown

If my reading material has taught me anything, it’s that wind is created by a cloud with lips.

 

[havoc00]

Get used to it, with node advancement slowed down to a crawl, improvements gen on gen will be minimal.

Why has node advancement slowed down?

 

[SlimySnake]

There have been a number of technology advancements, particular on the PlayStation side of things, that are heavily marketed as being game-changers that turn out to be kind of nothing-burgers.

Ray-tracing is the biggest waste of time, energy, and resources of any graphical technology that I can remember. It's barely noticeable, it cuts your frame rate in half, and I believe is mostly being perpetuated as a way to sell $1,500 GPUs. What initially sold everyone on the concept was Minecraft mods that looked absolutely incredible, but if we are being honest with ourselves, how many games with RTX have really lived up to that game-changing prospect?

PSSR is working on some games, and on other games it's making them look worse. No doubt that this technology is going to be the future of graphics rendering, but right now it's a complete mixed bag.

HDR is available in only some games, on some televisions, and 50% of the time it's botched and doesn't work correctly. The calibration menus are unintuitive and difficult to parse even for a technically minded person. Most games don't use the system-level calibration, resulting in an uneven and inconsistent experience.

3D audio just doesn't work for me. I cannot hear height with any pair of headphones I've tried. The new personalized profile calibration tool just flat out sucks too. Sounds like stereo to me!

Even 4K is not a noticeable step-up on a regular sized television that most people would have. You need a BIG tv and it needs to be pretty close to you.



I'm not a technological laggard, I love the SSD technology, the DualSense controller, and OLED is a huge upgrade, but some of these other technological innovations have fallen quite short of expectations for me. Sometimes I do long for the days of wired controllers into CRT displays...nothing even comes close to how good games feel to play on an old-school setup like that.

Ray tracing:

Only one Sony first party studio uses RT - Insomniac. And even they only used RT reflections. I think they added a lot to Spiderman 2. it looks stunning thanks to all the building windows reflections while flying. Other than that, Sony first party has indeed let you down but thats on Sony first party. play games like Wukong, Hellblade, Avatar, Star Wars outlaws, Silent Hill 2, etc

PSSR - Another Sony fuckup. DLSS is fine. it was fine 6 years ago. And got way better 4 years ago when DLSS2 launched. AI upscaling simply works and has been working for the last four years on PC.

HDR - Sony games do this the best. I dont know what games you are playing but every single Sony game ive played looks insane on HDR with little to no tweaking. I actually dont even bother tweaking Sony games because they are literally the best in the business at HDR. Ratchet, Horizon, Spiderman, and even dated looking games like Astrobot pop on HDR sets making them look almost next gen at times.

3D audio - yes this sucks. Gave up on this. Returnal is still the best implementation and that was 4 years ago. I guess Astrobot 2 now.

I think you need to stop seeing things like as features and take the game on the whole. If you are squinting your eyes trying to find RT shadows or 4k textures then you are doing it wrong. Play something like Batman AK or DriveClub and see just how shitty 1080p games look on 4k sets. Then switch to something like Avatar and you will see an immediate difference. Avatar is also a very good example of using audio. You hear everything in the jungle. play hellblade 2 and tell if their TSR implementation is shit. it looks gorgeous despite running under 1080p. Why? Because of the upscaling solution cleaning up the image.

 

[yogaflame]

That is why Sony should have continued with Cell processor. It was even use in medical field. It is a very promising technology even if its difficult at first, to some 3rd party developers. Sony should go back with its own customized CPU and GPU especially with that impressive Cell processor. A hybrid with cell processor and AMD will be acceptable for me.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

SNES to Dreamcast is still more technical advancement in gaming, then we have seen in the past twenty years of this medium.

Well, yes, but that wasn’t argued against. The point is a lot will change between 2020 and 2029.

 

[cinnamonandgravy]

Advanced physics or gtfo.

shit's been seriously neglected for so long
havok is ~20 years old.

i expected fluid simulations to be industry-standard by now.
water tech is stagnant, and even going backwards sometimes.

i think part of reason there can be a malaise about current games is in ye olden days, new tech = new gameplay.
often these days, we get the same gameplay of yesteryear + new shiny window dressing... or gameplay is actually worse because so much time/money goes into graphics.

im a hardcore graphics slut but theres got to be a decent game there too.
if youre not doing something new, it at least needs to be done well.

 

[hououinkyouma00]

Ray-tracing is the biggest waste of time, energy, and resources of any graphical technology that I can remember. It's barely noticeable, it cuts your frame rate in half, and I believe is mostly being perpetuated as a way to sell $1,500 GPUs. What initially sold everyone on the concept was Minecraft mods that looked absolutely incredible, but if we are being honest with ourselves, how many games with RTX have really lived up to that game-changing prospect?

I agree with you on this one. Don't get me wrong RT lighting/AO/reflections all look good but it's just not worth it performance wise.

There are so many games with amazing traditional lighting, and I haven't really seen any RT based lighting techniques that look better then finely crafted lighting by talented devs.

PSSR is working on some games, and on other games it's making them look worse. No doubt that this technology is going to be the future of graphics rendering, but right now it's a complete mixed bag.

It's a 1st gen product. It's been consuming facing for like a month. It's obviously going to get better. DLSS wasn't perfect in the beginning, and up until very recently even FSR was complete shit.

Way too early to judge with PSSR.

HDR is available in only some games, on some televisions, and 50% of the time it's botched and doesn't work correctly. The calibration menus are unintuitive and difficult to parse even for a technically minded person. Most games don't use the system-level calibration, resulting in an uneven and inconsistent experience.

What display are you using? I feel like the majority of people that have mediocre displays always find HDR underwhelming. You really need to have OLED or a Mini-LED with a ton of dimming zones to really benefit from it at least until we get Micro LED.

I do agree on the menus though. There really needs to be a standard there.

3D audio just doesn't work for me. I cannot hear height with any pair of headphones I've tried. The new personalized profile calibration tool just flat out sucks too. Sounds like stereo to me!

This is something that I'm sure if I used headphones more often I would notice but the majority of time I just use the TV or gasp monitor speakers (luckily my OLED monitor has 2x5w speakers so it at least sounds better then 99% of monitor). Headphones hurt my head, and while I have moved to earbuds almost entirely (Inzone earbuds due to transparency but might try out the Steelseries ones) I still use speakers probably 80% of the time.

Even 4K is not a noticeable step-up on a regular sized television that most people would have. You need a BIG tv and it needs to be pretty close to you.

What? lol

How recently have you looked at a 1080p and a 4K tv side by side because the difference is big.

Sometimes I do long for the days of wired controllers into CRT displays...nothing even comes close to how good games feel to play on an old-school setup like that.

Absolutely, I still have a 20" CRT that I play a lot of games on and it feels great. However I know this is about 50% nostalgia.

If I had more space and our living room layout was different I would have a dedicated spot for my CRT but as of right now I have it on a rolling cart that I have cable managed so it's easy to pull out of the closet and plug in the power strip and play.

 

[Quasicat]

I finally upgraded my TV which does amazing HDR except for Forza Horizon 3 and a majority of PS5 games. Everything looks all washed out and faded. I was able to get Spider-Man and Ghost of Tsushima looking good on it, but it took a lot of tinkering to get it there.

 

[MayauMiao]

 

[MikeM]

Isn’t RT largely to save dev time? Yes it has an added benefit of being more accurate generally (not always).

There has been some wins- we no longer care about # of polygons. We have very good upscalers to reallocate frametimes to other things other than pixels. AutoHDR is nice especially on PC where its just starting to catchup to consoles.

 

[Schmendrick]

Lumen is just the lighting.
Nanite is why the graphics are so good, if you didn’t get why that toggle was doing much.

Are you seriously pretending to not be able to see what the label of the checkbox he`s toggling spells?

Isn’t RT largely to save dev time?

this gen, no. This gen it is an add on that actually costs dev time ( and ideally optimization time) because the hardware can't just run it without heavy tweaking.
Next gen...maaaaybe.