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In defence of paying a fair price for stuff - higher prices are ok

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hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
So on these here forums we regularly get outrage about pricing. The current outrage is over Sony bumping the price of 1st party games, but before that we had the regular moans about Nintendo charging $60 for its games and continuing to do so for the life of the product. I'd like to present some thoughts on why actually it's not a bad idea to actually pay for stuff.

Before I get into the meat of things, I think it's relevant to briefly consider the cost of games over time. Back in the late 80s when the Atari ST came out a game would typically cost £20-25. Towards the end of its life in 93-94ish it was creeping up to 30, while all through that the big boxes from the likes of Microprose would routinely have an RRP of £35. Back then it was about 1.5 £ to the $. If we consider inflation, that £25 for a game in let's say 1990 is the equivalent of £57.25 today, which works out at $73. So the pricing is actually in line with inflation. Where things are different of course is that today we have DLC, microtransactions and loot boxes. I want to address how we got to that point.

So way back in the distant past we bought music, movies and games, news and magazines physically. We had to go to a shop and buy a CD, DVD or cartridge. Then the internet came along. Everything was free, because we hadn't really wrapped our heads around financial transactions online. People started pirating things from the interent and got to expect things free. Napster happened. The music industry didn't handle it well, and the eventual outcome was selling downloads for £1 for a single or £6 for an album vs the £4 single and £12 album they were previously selling. Then streaming happened and they got even less money.

Gamers (especially on PC) meanwhile were pirating things from Sharereactor and eDonkey, before graduating to the pirate bay. Steam came along with its convenience and deep-discounted sales and many people (myself included) were successfully weaned off piracy habits. Bundles happened, making games even cheaper. We all built huge backlogs of games we will never play and ultimately don't care about. I have a ridiculous collection of pushing 1000 games on my Steam, GOG, etc accounts, and honestly I'll never play them all, and so many are absolute trash from bundles.

Cinema was able to avoid much of this due to the experience of the theatre - by offering a physical experience that was superior to your home they could lure people in. I suspect the COVID situation will have many in the movie industry shifting nervously in their seats as some companies break ranks and push content to VOD.

So where did these developments lead us?

News shifted online, but nobody wanted to pay, so we had adverts, but they didn't work. So Google got clever and profiled people for targetted advertising. Social media came along. It had to be free to get people to participate. The problem is that with search and our communication with each other we became the product. In search this led to creepy profiling and privacy infringements, while in social this became a battle for eyeballs, amplifying rage and creating the horror that is Twitter. News became a battle of clickbait to get seen on google to collect the google adbucks and journalism was destroyed.

The music industry is basically fucked. Consider the loss of the cultural touchstone of the top 40 we once had in the UK (I can't speak of America), the shared cultural heritage of all of us hearing a broadly similar set of music in addition to that we sought out ourselves, meaning we could all discuss how fucking annoying boy bands were, or how awesome britpop was. More importantly though record companies aren't sending scouts out to gigs like they used to, the A&R departments have shrunk, and artists outside of the elite are getting less money than ever as streaming erodes income. The loss to our culture is profound as music becomes more fragmented and of lower quality.

Games have taken a slightly different tack. Publishers realised that customers had gotten used to deep discounts, many of us will chuck a game on isthereanydeal and wait for it to hit a price far below its release price. This has led publishers to seek alternative ways of making revenue, and this is where DLC and microtransactions have come in, some so nasty as to make horse armour look positively pedestrian. It's had an impact on game design too as games must be designed for monetisation. It's led to the push to multiplayer and games as a service as now selling you a game isn't where the money is, it's in getting you to spend money in the game. And now with Gamepass and similar the emphasis will be on keeping your attention to get the money from Microsoft, which means games not respecting your time, padding themselves out with busywork but trying to push that dopamine into your skull so you keep on playing, trapped like a rat in a maze.

Some companies have resisted that urge. Nintendo famously cop a lot of flak here for pricing their games at $60 and keeping them there. This gets called anti-consumer but notice how Nintendo games don't generally have microtransactions. DLC is more akin to the expansion packs of old, genuinely big content. And the games, for me, bring back that old-school magic of gaming, because the incentive for Nintendo with this pricing scheme is to sell you a game. To do that they need to get your mates to tell you how awesome it is, be they offline or online. You don't do that with bland skinner boxes. A side bonus is that the games hold their value - 2nd hand I can get very close to what I paid for any given game.

So, in summary, being a bunch of tightwads might seem good for the consumer, but the long term consequences are harmful. It's cost us the music industry, it's led to games that hunt for whales and disrespect our time, it's led to the clickbait mess media we see today and it's led to the social media mess polarising our society. I'm not sure the free stuff was worth it.
 

ACESHIGH

Banned
Nice argument but even full priced AAA games are mtx fests these days.

And piracy got me so much into music and gaming to slowly build a 500 CD and 1000 digital games collection.

It's all about greed and lack of information. Console gamers don't know any better so they will gladly bend over and pay whatever Sony Nintendo or MS want.
 
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Well written OP

All I can say is vote with your wallet. As for your social media comments, i detest “influencers” on there with a passion, normalising dishonesty.
 

TintoConCasera

I bought a sex doll, but I keep it inflated 100% of the time and use it like a regular wife
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H

hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
Nice argument but even full priced AAA games are mtx fests these days.

And piracy got me so much into music and gaming to slowly build a 500 CD and 1000 digital games collection.

It's all about greed and lack of information. Console gamers don't know any better so they will gladly bend over and pay whatever Sony Nintendo or MS want.

You're right that expensive games are mtx-fests, but that is because we reached a point where new revenue streams were required (see the fledgling attempt with horse armour) to keep things sustainable and then the big companies saw opportunities and the greed kicked in - consumers got used to it as the frog was boiled slowly.

Re music - I get that piracy is a good way to get people into new things, but that only works if it's try-before-you-buy. The trouble is, a lot of people don't buy, which means that the bands appealing to those savvy enough to know how to pirate stuff don't make any money. In the end, it's easier to be a social media influencer and probably pays better too.
 

nush

Member
Nice argument but even full priced AAA games are mtx fests these days.

That's becuse they keep that revenue stream when they slowly drop the price through all the bands. Ever notice how DLC isn't discounted much if at all even when a full price game is sold for sub $10? That's why.
 

Ellery

Member
For me it mostly means I try out fewer games. The GOATS from Santa Monica and Naughty Dog will still be day1, but most other games are not good enough and 3rd Party games are 30-40€ PC games.

It is pretty easy from my Point of View. Those companies don't deserve my sympathy and understanding. As always I do what is best for me in the regards of spending money, because they do what is best for them in regards to earning money. I don't mind paying 70$ or more for a game as good as TLOU2 or God of War, but masterpieces like that only come along every 2-3 years or so.

Sony will be fine even if I don't buy Horizon Forbidden West for 80€ but rather borrow it from a friend or buy it used for 25€ 8 months later.

Important Edit : You guys also have to be aware that you pay 10$/€ extra so Xbox players don't get 3rd party games disguised as exclusive. Final Fantasy XVI for example. I don't like this.
 
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oagboghi2

Member
For me it mostly means I try out fewer games. The GOATS from Santa Monica and Naughty Dog will still be day1, but most other games are not good enough and 3rd Party games are 30-40€ PC games.

It is pretty easy from my Point of View. Those companies don't deserve my sympathy and understanding. As always I do what is best for me in the regards of spending money, because they do what is best for them in regards to earning money. I don't mind paying 70$ or more for a game as good as TLOU2 or God of War, but masterpieces like that only come along every 2-3 years or so.

Sony will be fine even if I don't buy Horizon Forbidden West for 80€ but rather borrow it from a friend or buy it used for 25€ 8 months later.

Important Edit : You guys also have to be aware that you pay 10$/€ extra so Xbox players don't get 3rd party games disguised as exclusive. Final Fantasy XVI for example. I don't like this.
Sony exclusives is raising game prices? Well that's a new load of shit
 
H

hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
There will always be artists making great art for the art's sake, so.. oh wait, games aren't art. My bad.

While this is true, the problem is that if there is insufficient resource for that art to pay a good wage then you have a smaller pool of people willing to create that art, and without that zeitgeist, without the movements, that come from having lots of people creating, you lose much of the energy around an artform.
 

ACESHIGH

Banned
I'll never agree with those "save the industry" messages implying that gamers have to put up with this crap.

The way I see it ,on PC we are already subsidizing many studio manhours by just brute forcing them with ridiculously powerful hardware and having modders fixing them. So in return I choose to pay as little as I can for their unoptimized software.

Examples: Nier automata - horizon zero dawn - rage 2 - the evil within 2 - red dead redemption 2.

Ubisoft games I just wait until they give them for free on u play and I can go on an on.
 

Chastten

Banned
If I know I'm gonna like a game, I'll gladly fork over whatever amount. €60. €80. €100. Whatever. if I'm getting 10 or 20 hours out of them it'll be very cheap at the end of the day.

Case in point - the Super Mario 3D Collection. If I had to review it, I'd probably have to give it a 5,5 or something as it has so much missed potential. However, I'm more than happy to pay €60 for it, as I know I'm getting 2 of the best games ever released plus one bonus, and at the very least 50+ hours of pure gaming bliss out of it.
 

CitizenX

Banned
Indie games used to always be $10-$15 for the longest time i would say the avg is now aligns more in the $20-30 range. Asking more for the biggest $$$ games is not a big deal and in fact long over due. The problem is most of them are trash and not worth it.

Also wait a few weeks, most are broken or will still be adding content....See Gamepass almoost anything MS releases is not done...in fact they still are not done years after release.
 
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4EZCOOLDART

Member
Games are cheaper than ever with Steam. Back in the day you could buy Donkey Kong Country for $50 or a heavily used copy for $49 (sold for $3).
 
Nicely written op. Appreciate the effort.

I personally prefer to pay $20-30 per game. I think that's a fair price considering what I earn and how much enjoyment I get out of it.

I despise companies dropping down to $4-5. That's definitely devaluation.
 
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#Phonepunk#

Banned
Nintendo famously cop a lot of flak here for pricing their games at $60 and keeping them there. This gets called anti-consumer but notice how Nintendo games don't generally have microtransactions. DLC is more akin to the expansion packs of old, genuinely big content.
this is a very good point. one of the big reasons i love Nintendo is they do seem to have more respect for the customers in this way. i can't think of any Nintendo games with MTX, whereas that stuff is all other games.

also the $60 for new games is, like, what my dad used to pay for SNES games when i was a kid. so i have zero problem with that price. given the increasing cost of game production, i'm amazed they aren't all $100 or more (the answer, of course, is that many are, like Star Wars Battlefront, sold off in content packages ).

i really like what are you saying here, and i agree. you can see how the cheapening of content has destroyed the music industry. the customers are so used to not paying for music nowadays that only the biggest stars get any. people won't go pay to see live music that they can stream for free. streaming itself has devalued even the most elite superstars to where even they make fractions of what the previous gen made.

as for cinema, i think they offloaded a lot of their issues onto the world market. notice how China is a bigger and bigger slice of the box office? it "made more money" but when you look at tickets sold, The Force Awakens sold a fraction of the tickets to American moviegoers that the very first Star Wars did. international BO accounts for far more of the share, which is why movies are made with that market in mind. the bubble has burst for cinema and this is why they are going international.
 
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I believe in a premium product, especially in entertainment. The prices have already diverged anyway. If you want to spend $10 or less, there are thousands upon thousands of games at your fingertips. If you want a brand-new game that pays the salaries of 600 people, you might have to shell out. Oh well.
 

Orky

Banned
Nice argument but even full priced AAA games are mtx fests these days.

And piracy got me so much into music and gaming to slowly build a 500 CD and 1000 digital games collection.

It's all about greed and lack of information. Console gamers don't know any better so they will gladly bend over and pay whatever Sony Nintendo or MS want.

this. If the games would be without any MTX then I would understand this, but otherwise? No!
 
H

hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
this is a very good point. one of the big reasons i love Nintendo is they do seem to have more respect for the customers in this way. i can't think of any Nintendo games with MTX, whereas that stuff is all other games.

also the $60 for new games is, like, what my dad used to pay for SNES games when i was a kid. so i have zero problem with that price. given the increasing cost of game production, i'm amazed they aren't all $100 or more (the answer, of course, is that many are, like Star Wars Battlefront, sold off in content packages ).

i really like what are you saying here, and i agree. you can see how the cheapening of content has destroyed the music industry. the customers are so used to not paying for music nowadays that only the biggest stars get any.

as for cinema, i think they offloaded a lot of their issues onto the world market. notice how China is a bigger and bigger slice of the box office? it "made more money" but when you look at tickets sold, The Force Awakens sold a fraction of the tickets to American moviegoers that the very first Star Wars did. the bubble has burst for cinema and this is why they are going international.

Good point re cinema and of course this is where the pandering (should that be panda-ing?) is coming from. Re pricing - in hindsight yeah I didn't compare like for like as ST and Amiga games were generally the cheapest in the 16-bit era with PC usually £5 more and console games around £50 in the UK which would be about £115 now.
 
S

SLoWMoTIoN

Unconfirmed Member
I don't get the movie and games analogy. The average gamer isn't as stupid as the average movie goer...er film enthusiast.


lol

I couldn't say that with a cis scum face.

ANYWAY the problem isn't the price by itself but the fact you are still getting a incomplete game that will most likely release with a day one season pass. Also digital games cost next to nothing to distribute and bd's are cheap BACK in the day the n64 games cost a pretty penny because they were ma...well you know all about this hariseldon smh.
 

Exede

Member
I have no problems with paying more for games next gen, i really don´t have. But what gets me mad and pissed off is when i have to pay more for them than equally rich countrys.
 

Punished Miku

Human Rights Subscription Service
I don't have a problem with stuff that rarely goes on sale. I don't have a problem with any of Nintendo's stuff either for the most part. I buy literally every single game I want on day 1 at full price, and I buy lots of games.

All I know is that I will be heavily cutting back on Playstation. Whether or not its rational or not, the closer games get to $100 it just hits a psychological wall for me where I suddenly feel this is way too much money to be spending on multiple games a month. In the US that'll be $70 + tax, and there will still be MTNs, season passes, collector's editions, and more. Where I would frequently buy 2 games the same day and not feel bad at all, suddenly it just feels wrong. This will completely change my spending habits. I will buy significantly less games, and buy them way later now.
 

Bartski

Gold Member
Rounding up: Games in US will be $70. Games in Europe €80. That's almost $95 so if you live in Europe - you pay over 30% more for the same product
 
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H

hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
Rounding up: Games in US will be $70. Games in Europe €80. That's almost $95 so if you live in Europe - you pay over 30% more for the same product

I think US prices are without tax where certainly in the UK prices are always quoted with tax and I think Europe is the same.
 

kuncol02

Banned
I think US prices are without tax where certainly in the UK prices are always quoted with tax and I think Europe is the same.
No country in Europe has 30% VAT. Closest to that is Hungary with 27%, but rest of Europe has it much lower in around 20%. Polish price of PS games jumped by $20 in best case scenario. That can't be justified by anything.
 

notseqi

Gold Member
Sony 1st party sells stable numbers and is not generally a hit or miss situation. So, why does the price go up? Shouldn't it go down?
No, they ask you to pay that much because they can. I don't agree with that sentiment, especially when they are asking us for 10$ more, excluding tax, fucking Europe over again.

Not for me, homes.
 
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hariseldon

Unconfirmed Member
No country in Europe has 30% VAT. Closest to that is Hungary with 27%, but rest of Europe has it much lower in around 20%. Polish price of PS games jumped by $20 in best case scenario. That can't be justified by anything.

That is indeed a bit steep - I just wanted to clarify a chunk of the price difference to ensure that people are comparing apples with apples. There is of course regional pricing in that poorer countries tend to get games cheaper (eg back in the day you used to be able to get Russian games cheap if you VPN'd into Steam, no idea if that's still the case).
 

Reindeer

Member
I find it funny how all these YouTubers were going hard on EA, Activision and 505 games for charging higher prices for games and not offering free upgrades but keep quite when Sony does the same. The hypocrisy and favouritism among these people is astonishing. I can't even called them paid shills, they are just shills.
 
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deriks

4-Time GIF/Meme God
US 70
EU 80
Canada 90
Australia 125
Brasil 350 for Sony, Microsoft is probably sticking with 200 here
 

Umbral

Member
Nice argument but even full priced AAA games are mtx fests these days.

And piracy got me so much into music and gaming to slowly build a 500 CD and 1000 digital games collection.

It's all about greed and lack of information. Console gamers don't know any better so they will gladly bend over and pay whatever Sony Nintendo or MS want.

Not Sony first-party games.
 

_Spr_Drnk

Banned
I'm okay with it because there's few titles I ever need day one. I bought my second PS4 of the generation (after a few years purely on Switch) for TLOU2, a game which I paid RRP for, and have had 60-70 odd hours on 2 replays so far, so good value for me. Division 2, 15 quid, 90 hours so far, great value. Between now and next year, when I plan to snag a PS5, I have the following: (all brand new shrink wrapped)

Bloodborne £10
Spiderman £16
God of War £15
GTA5 premium £15
Titanfall 2 £8
RE2 £8
Tempest 4k I just got for £4.

So unless you need to buy bleeding edge titles day one, all of the time, I truly believe gaming is one of the best value pastimes out there.
 

NickFire

Member
Agree to disagree OP. These companies make billions. They can afford to live off those billions just fine without jacking up prices.
 

Nikana

Go Go Neo Rangers!
Good write up. I'll admit the $70 price tag hit me harder than I anticpiated in my decision to pick up a PS5 day 1. I finished Demon Souls on the PS3 and I wouldnt mind playing a better version of that game, but then the $70 price tag really made me stop in my tracks. I wanted to play SMMM but the $50 price tag is just too much with a smaller game scope. Godfall looks like a decent laucnh game but I can get it for $10 cheaper on PC. So no buy from me on that platform.

The higher price tag I think is a mistake. I understand the rational behind it but I don't think its necessary as publisher have found other sources of revenue and its not like people arent using it. If they would have come out and said look we are raising the prices and MTX are gone from the platform I would be all over it. But all this high price tag is going to do is have me try out games I am unsure about less as I will be waiting for a sale which then begs the question on how this will effect sale prices on games.

The other thing I find super strange is even Activsion is not increasing prices on PC. COD is still $60 there. Why is it just consoles? Clearly publishers think they can get away with it on Consoles and not PC meaning it feels extremely artificial. If they truly felt costs needed to go up they would increase them everywhere.

The market will react to it one way or another.
 
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Patterson

Member
I find it funny how all these YouTubers were going hard on EA, Activision and 505 games for charging higher prices for games and not offering free upgrades but keep quite when Sony does the same. The hypocrisy and favouritism among these people is astonishing. I can't even called them paid shills, they are just shills.
Probably because those companies are known for mtx where Sony first party’s generally do not.
 

Reindeer

Member
Probably because those companies are known for mtx where Sony first party’s generally do not.
There's no MTX in games like Control, yet that didn't stop these people whining about the fact that you have to pay for upgrades. Same folks also ignore that 2K and Activision are selling full on remakes like Mafia and Tony Hawk for $40 while Sony is selling Demon Souls for $70. Mafia is another game without MTX .

I dislike the likes of EA and Activision, but people are just jumping on bandwagon of hate towards these companies and ignore similar evil practices when it comes to their favourite publishers.
 
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JLB

Banned
bullshit, OP. 80 fucking euros for a game its ridiculous. Specially when many of those games require at the very least a monthly subscription to fully work (MP).
Steam prices are way lower than the prices offered by Sony and MS stores. No excuses.
 
I remember video games costing $79.99 on the SNES and N64. I can’t remember NES because I was too little to care about the prices back then. How many times do you pay $79.99 for a SF II variant?

Gamers are spoiled by how prices have stayed relatively stable and drop so quickly now, especially considering increasing game budgets. I get the MTX hate, but I just don’t waste my money on that stuff. DLC is a bit more annoying to me. On the one hand, it’s new content, on the other hand, should it have been there in the first place?

I’m very anti piracy. I think people should pay for the entertainment they consume. I do wish some games were available at affordable prices though. I want to play Little Samson, but I’m not paying that price for it. It would be nice if certain rarer titles were distributed by some company.
 
Any publicly held corporation is bound by its shareholders to maximize profit by pricing their product as high as they can before the demand curve starts eliminating said profit.

Capitalism 101, and that's not a bad thing. We're all (for the most part) 1st World people dealing with 1st World problems, the price of vidyagames being chief among them.
 
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SafeOrAlone

Banned
I don't mind paying more for a great experience, especially if it has great replay value. I love playing my favorite games again, with new difficulty levels, costumes etc. I think the scope, in terms of game length, can be trimmed down when it comes to the average AAA single-player experience. The trade-off needs to be an end to some of the distasteful practices we've seen crop up over the last generation or two, like micro-transactions.
 

Kerlurk

Banned
 
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lukilladog

Member
So basically you are saying that discounts are hurting sales of new games and monetization is a consequence of that, it will be harmful to gaming in the long run... and higher prices will somehow put and end to that or at least get it under control?.

If so I don´t think there is any data to support those assertions and the solution seems very questionable as higher prices will lead to more people looking for discounts and cheap games.
 
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