in this thread, we throw poop and call it art

So their Gaming Division is at risk, despite them mentioning they plan to try and catch up to Nintendo? Seriously OP....

Short straws or what.
 
nib95 said:
So their Gaming Division is at risk, despite them mentioning they needed to catch up to Nintendo? Seriously OP....

Short straws or what.
Click to expand...

I bet he was all pepped up, didnt make that connection. Just look at his posts in the OT version of this thread "Whos gonna break it to the kids" .. seriously? :rolleyes: <-- Needs to come back.
 
Psychotext said:
Quoted from the earnings releases thread:

Code: 
	  Sony		    Nintendo	     Microsoft	       Industry
Y/E 1998     $902,811,090   $1,023,333,867                      $1,926,144,957
Y/E 1999   $1,102,563,557   $1,301,350,000                      $2,403,913,557
Y/E 2000     $722,738,949   $1,368,207,547                      $2,090,946,497
Y/E 2001    -$449,776,290     $677,576,000                        $227,799,710
Y/E 2002     $629,101,056     $895,872,180   -$1,135,000,000      $389,973,237
Y/E 2003     $935,569,253     $834,333,333   -$1,191,000,000      $578,902,586
Y/E 2004     $627,195,212     $993,161,303   -$1,337,000,000      $283,356,515
Y/E 2005     $419,888,799   $1,056,056,202     -$539,000,000      $936,945,001
Y/E 2006      $69,129,058     $774,478,055   -$1,339,000,000     -$495,392,887
Y/E 2007  -$1,970,923,859   $1,914,666,388   -$1,969,000,000   -$2,025,257,471
Y/E 2008  -$1,079,994,103   $4,322,637,887      $426,000,000    $3,668,643,783

Y/E 09Q1      $51,113,208   $1,124,452,830      $178,000,000    $1,353,566,038
Y/E 09Q2    -$379,471,154   $1,278,759,615		
			
Total				
	   $1,579,944,775  $17,564,885,209   -$6,906,000,000   $11,339,541,523
				
Full Year Average
	     $173,482,066   $1,378,333,888   -$1,012,000,000      $907,815,953
				
Profitable Years				
			8		11		   1		     9
				
Non Profitable Years				
			3		 0		   6		     2
				
Average in Loss Year				
	  -$1,166,898,084	       N/A   -$1,251,666,667   -$1,260,325,179
				
Average in Profit Year				
	     $676,124,622   $1,378,333,888      $426,000,000    $1,389,625,094

I'm not sure where the $5bn figure is coming from.
Click to expand...
From the OT post that preceded this one:
Mutanthands said:
Man, I just skimmed through some of the quarterly reports that Tak provided in his post, and I'm finding it harder to believe that something is not going to happen at the game division.

here are the numbers for the game division operating income/loss (per fiscal quarter):

Q2 2008 -$379 million

Q1 2008 +$51 million

Q4 2007 -$1,245 million (1.2 Billion)

Q3 2007 +$113 million

Q2 2007 -$841 Million

Q1 2007 -$237 Million

Q4 2006 -$1969 Million (1.9 Billion)

Q3 2006 -$455 Million

Q2 2006 -$369 Million (pre-PS3)

The massive bleeding Sony is suffering through the gaming division has never struck me until I looked at all the numbers together.

Gaming kept Sony going for many years. But look at those numbers. Does Sony have the cash reserves to bleed like this much longer? Once they finally get the cost of the PS3 down to reasonable levels, can they manage the sales volume and game sales to bounce back, considering that the Wii is the mass market console of choice this generation?

You can make a financial argument for cutting your losses and running away. I doubt Sony would do that, but don't be suprised if some big changes come along.

http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/index.html

Edited to add a link to the financial reports.
Click to expand...
 
Geez five billion in debt and operating at a consistent loss. Good luck Sony getting loans from financial institutions going forward in the midst of the worst financial crisis since the 1930's. And in this environment who is going to want to buy their bonds or stock? They're a ticking time bomb.
 
Terrell said:
We're in a worldwide recession, the rules of the game have changed. Were it not for that, I would show much less concern.
Second, even with a decrease in parts, PS3 is STILL sold at a loss.
Lastly, they have a $5 BILLION debt to recover. That doesn't wash away overnight. Not even the PS2 had debts like that to recover, and it took 2 years for that platform to recover its losses, being magnitudes more successful.

So I don't honestly see how you can think everything's all roses.
Click to expand...

1. The worldwide recession is going to affect their other divisions more adversely than their gaming division.

2. Even if it's sold at a loss, that gap is becoming smaller and ongoing software releases will mitigate that loss and maybe even provide Sony with a profit. Worst case scenario for the gaming division: Sony can't afford to cut the price of the PS3 in order to stay as competitive. But, it's definitely not necessary at this point to say that Sony's gaming division is in for a 'massive restructuring'. Part of the problems that led to their massive losses in the gaming division have, in fact, been 'restructured' to an extent already. Obviously, Kutaragi had much to do with that, and he's no longer in a prominent role with the company.

3. The previous debt they had with the PS3, I'd imagine, was already or partially accounted for in previous quarters and has been propped up by other divisions. That doesn't necessarily matter the most in our analysis of who is at risk, or on the chopping block, of Sony's divisions going forward. You have to analyze the situation from the perspective of, "who, going forward, has the most potential for us to earn money". The gaming division is certainly one of the brighter areas in the coming years, from that perspective.
 
Leaked memo from Sir Howard to SCEJ:

Hey guys, could you maybe make some fucking games for the PS3 other than Siren please, that might be a big help and good start so I don't fire you all, fuccccckkkkkkkk.gif

yours always
Howie
 
xabre said:
Geez five billion in debt and operating at a consistent loss. Good luck Sony getting loans from financial institutions going forward in the midst of the worst financial crisis since the 1930's. And in this environment who is going to want to buy their bonds or stock? They're a ticking time bomb.
Click to expand...

You do know that Sony as a whole has been making profits, right?
 
Private Hoffman said:
Worst case scenario for the gaming division: Sony can't afford to cut the price of the PS3 in order to stay as competitive.
Click to expand...

Why do Sony fans always say this? Why do so many people around here say that Sony "can't afford to cut price."? Where are you people getting this information? Do you have a mole at Sony HQ who tells you this stuff, or is this just speculative forum bullshitting? Have you personally seen Sony's projections of increased sales from a price decrease relative to revenue lost? If not, then how the hell do you KNOW that Sony can't afford to cut the price of the system?
 
xabre said:
Geez five billion in debt and operating at a consistent loss. Good luck Sony getting loans from financial institutions going forward in the midst of the worst financial crisis since the 1930's. And in this environment who is going to want to buy their bonds or stock? They're a ticking time bomb.
Click to expand...

That's what concerns me, as a PS3 owner. Sony is going to run out of capital eventually, and operating at levels of loss like this will only serve to expedite the process. Then what? Merger? Takeover? Bankruptcy?

Maybe it is a doomsday scenario for Sony here and it might not be as bad as is being depicted here, but I can't help but wait for another Dreamcast-like shocker. What the hell... it's already happened to me once, so why not again?
 
Koya Tabata, a Credit Suisse analyst, recently warned investors that the restructuring of Sony is perilously overdue and must be radical. Sony management needs to make a rapid shift in its business model to one driven by earnings in the content business, he said.

The focus of research and development must be on software
Click to expand...

People somehow conclude cuts to their gaming division from this ???
 
Petrae said:
That's what concerns me, as a PS3 owner. Sony is going to run out of capital eventually, and operating at levels of loss like this will only serve to expedite the process. Then what? Merger? Takeover? Bankruptcy?
Click to expand...

I'd think there'd need to be a lot more "uh-ohs" (it's the term Sega used to describe situations like these) before something like that happens. PS3 will be okay, and the Sony Vortex will be released as planned.

Son of Godzilla said:
Err.... Yes?

LBP would have sold better on Wii.
Click to expand...

I dunno about that.
 
lawblob said:
Why do Sony fans always say this? Why do so many people around here say that Sony "can't afford to cut price."? Where are you people getting this information? Do you have a mole at Sony HQ who tells you this stuff, or is this just speculative forum bullshitting? Have you personally seen Sony's projections of increased sales from a price decrease relative to revenue lost? If not, then how the hell do you KNOW that Sony can't afford to cut the price of the system?
Click to expand...

I said the worst case scenario is that Sony wouldn't be able to cut cost... I never said that I KNEW Sony couldn't cut cost in the future...

Reading comprehension...
 
Psychotext said:
Check the numbers, they aren't right...
Click to expand...
Ummm, I did, just did right now with a calculator. Add up all the red ink together, then subtract the two black-ink sections, and you get about $5.3 billion.
 
Terrell said:
Ummm, I did, just did right now with a calculator. Add up all the red ink together, then subtract the two black-ink sections, and you get about $5.3 billion.
Click to expand...
Not the adding up. The actual figures from the financial reports.

Trust me... I spent a shitload of time working on that post in the earnings thread.
 
Son of Godzilla said:
Err.... Yes?

LBP would have sold better on Wii.
Click to expand...

LBP as it is couldn't have been done on the Wii anyway.

Edit: Hilarious, he didnt even check the numbers. :lol Epic thread OP, epic thread.
 
Private Hoffman said:
I said the worst case scenario is that Sony wouldn't be able to cut cost... I never said that I KNEW Sony couldn't cut cost in the future...

Reading comprehension...
Click to expand...

Im' not specifically accusing you of holding that position, im' just saying in general, that sentiment gets tossed around a lot on GAF, but I have never seen anybody back it up with any numbers. Would Sony be better off in the long run deeply cutting PS3 system price right now? Im' not sure, but I would like to see some info on it.
 
Forsete said:
You do know that Sony as a whole has been making profits, right?
Click to expand...

I don't see it. I see significant loss occurring over the past few years based on the posted financial details. Explain what leads you to making this claim?
 
Psychotext said:
Not the adding up. The actual figures from the financial reports.

Trust me... I spent a shitload of time working on that post in the earnings thread.
Click to expand...
Sorry, just checked the IR reports that are listed in the posts. The numbers are right, maybe you should go check, cuz it's laid out in the PDFs in the link, direct from Sony IR.
 
You know, if the recession goes into an depression (which definitely could happen), I'd expect Sony (whole company), Microsoft (gaming division at least) AND possibly even Nintendo to go out of business. Let's hope that doesn't happen. (and if we go into a depression, who the hell cares about gaming for that matter?)
 
lawblob said:
Im' not specifically accusing you of holding that position, im' just saying in general, that sentiment gets tossed around a lot on GAF, but I have never seen anybody back it up with any numbers. Would Sony be better off in the long run deeply cutting PS3 system price right now? Im' not sure, but I would like to see some info on it.
Click to expand...

We're going off the iSuppli reports about the cost. They're estimating. So we figure, a fair shake is to cut the iSuppli total by a bit, but that would still mean they're barely breaking even per unit, especially when you have to factor in the cost of distribution that iSuppli doesn't factor for.
 
lawblob said:
Im' not specifically accusing you of holding that position, im' just saying in general, that sentiment gets tossed around a lot on GAF, but I have never seen anybody back it up with any numbers. Would Sony be better off in the long run deeply cutting PS3 system price right now? Im' not sure, but I would like to see some info on it.
Click to expand...

I think all you have to do is look at their financial reports to see that. It's obvious to anyone that the reason they didn't cut cost this fall is because they just took a 379 million dollar loss for Q2 2008. Their gaming division is still bleeding money and they are still losing money on the Playstation 3.

With their other divisions hurting as well, along with the exchange rate of the yen, it puts sony in a much harder position to cut cost.
 
While I'm sure they will take a hard look at the gaming division and make some cuts and possibly drop a few projects, I very much doubt that the division itself will be done away with. With the manufacturing costs dropping for the console they are bound to at the very least recover some of the money they have lost on the PS3. I very much doubt that they will turn there noses up at that.
 
NintendoTogepi said:
I'd love if Sony's gaming division went under. The meltdowns would be priceless :lol
Click to expand...

Hey dipshit those are real people working there, people that need to pay bills and feed their kids. People posting on this board.

When you grow up and join the real world you will understand. Now you can go back to being 12.

Edit: Caught you before your stealth edit.
 
dfyb said:
yeah, what was sony thinking not putting LBP on Wii
Click to expand...

They should try and put Killzone 2, Uncharted 2, GT5, God of War 3 etc on the Wii too.

While we're at it, let Microsoft know their games could sell better on the Wii. In-fact, tell all the 360/PS3 developers that!
 
nib95 said:
They should try and put Killzone 2, Uncharted 2, GT5, God of War 3 etc on the Wii too.

While we're at it, let Microsoft know their games could sell better on the Wii. In-fact, tell all the 360/PS3 developers that!
Click to expand...
yeah that's a totally fair take on the logic he employed there. a+
 
Forsete said:
Oh geez.

Those numbers are from the gaming division. You can check the numbers for Sony Global here: http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/index.html, for example, FY2006 Sony Global went plus 126.3 billion JPY. FY2007 plus 369.4 billion JPY.
Click to expand...
The numbers shown per quarter, which are cumulative, match up exactly with the PDFs on that site. EXACTLY. And I only ever listed the $5 billion loss as specific to the gaming division.
 
I don't especially want to see anyone lose their job... and I'd hope the PS3 wouldn't be that big of a burden on Sony, but $5 billion is $5 billion.

Something had to give. I'm still not completely sold that it is happening, but I can definitely see why it could.
 
lawblob said:
Why do Sony fans always say this? Why do so many people around here say that Sony "can't afford to cut price."? Where are you people getting this information? Do you have a mole at Sony HQ who tells you this stuff, or is this just speculative forum bullshitting? Have you personally seen Sony's projections of increased sales from a price decrease relative to revenue lost? If not, then how the hell do you KNOW that Sony can't afford to cut the price of the system?
Click to expand...

I think they're making the assumption that there is at least one MBA at Sony bright enough to realize that if the numbers made sense to take a larger bath in the short term for profit in the long that they would do so.

Since they haven't, either a) they cannot afford in the short term to do so, or b) there is no longterm long enough to justify the expense.

I'd count both of those scenarios as "can't afford it."
 
Thunder Monkey said:
I don't especially want to see anyone lose their job... and I'd hope the PS3 wouldn't be that big of a burden on Sony, but $5 billion is $5 billion.
Click to expand...
unless it isn't $5 billion
 
Forsete said:
WE ARE TALKING DIFFERENT NUMBERS.

Get it now?
Click to expand...
Well, considering the original post highlights a potential plan to make deep cuts to non-profiting groups within the company, and the gaming division is posting $5.3 billion in losses in 2 YEARS, I don't see why other numbers are being dragged into the discussion. Yeah, Sony's got other profitable divisions, but it doesn't detract from the serious financial problem the gaming division has and a risk that the rest of Sony's business can't recover that, should the company actually be hitting a worst-case scenario as that article posted suggests.

You're dragging in factors that pose no relevance to the topic at hand.

OK, wait.... SHIT.
DAMMIT DAMMIT DAMMIT.
FUCK.
I need to re-total.
 
Rez>You said:
yeah that's a totally fair take on the logic he employed there. a+
Click to expand...

What was I thinking. You're right, lets only put some of Sony's big titles on the Wii. You know, giving people less reason to buy or own a PS3 and more reason to own a Wii! Perfect!
 
Jinfash said:
Hey dipshit those are real people working there, people that need to pay bills and feed their kids. People posting on this board.

When you grow up and join the real world you will understand. Now you can go back to being 12.

Edit: Caught you before your stealth edit.
Click to expand...

What stealth edit?
 
Terrell said:
You're dragging in factors that pose no relevance to the topic at hand.
Click to expand...

I was making a reply to xabre who thought Sony as a whole was in the red, they are not.. havent been in a long time. Just correcting him.

xabre: :lol Most company's profits are going down. Why do you think Sony is restructuring its Electronics division? I corrected you on the matter if Sony as a whole is losing money, they are currently not and haven't for a long time.
 
Suburban Cowboy said:
how long was it into the Gamecubes life before people started saying Nintendo would go 3rd party?
Click to expand...

Times are different now. We're talking about a $400 console that's failing to move units and a gaming division that's running up billions in losses all while there's a recession of historic proportions that's shutting businesses down left and right... unlike the last console generation which took place during markedly better economic conditions and didn't offer a console for more than $300 tops.

I really don't think you can compare the two platforms here.
 
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