in this thread, we throw poop and call it art

It's not like they can revive one of their classic IPs in a day or two. Some of you live in la-la-land.

That would be a solution in the long-term. But they need a short-term solution also.
 
Ted runs a tight, efficient ship at Insomniac, so I wouldn't be surprised if R2 is already in the black for them.
 
Relix said:
The difference comes from a cultural fact: American Company and a Japanese Company. Usually, American companies are very aggressive with their products while Japanese are usually very reserved a conservative. It's a generalization though, and Sony is in fact a tech company, but for a short while they might try to ride out the recession by laying low for a while. They need to keep shareholders interested in the company, and many investors are looking for stable companies to put their money in.

Also, I am fairly sure Sony will keep the Cell for a loooong while. The next Playstation will not have the same amount poured into it as the PS3 did. Take for example Nintendo. They were on the brink of destruction, and using similar hardware they released the Wii. Can't forget the NDS though, but it was obvious at one point that it was a rushed decision (remember the prototype?). The Wii did benefit from more R&D money because of the DS. You could see with the DS launch lineup that Nintendo wasn't prepared for it (Mario 64?). Sony will try and do something like this, but they are so tech oriented that it might not be easy
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I'm not going to pretend to be an expert on Japanese production but for a country thats conservative they do build some very awesome gadgets. Your shareholders remark I agree with. That would be a logical step for any investor especially in todays market.
I personally think Nintendo totally went a different route knowing they wouldn't be able to attack Sony and Microsoft in the arena they now dominate. I think most of that R&D went into the controller. The Japanese head honchos are very stubborn and I think with the way the economy is it's a blessing in disguise for Sony. Restructuring will without a doubt be easier to implement.

Averon said:
Ted runs a tight, efficient ship at Insomniac, so I wouldn't be surprised if R2 is already in the black for them.
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elaborate.
 
Sony has a massive problem on their hands with the PS3.

-It's losing crazy amounts of money
-Doesn't have Windows and Office sales cash to throw at the problem a la Microsoft
-the sales situation there is not improving
-What are the odds of the most expensive, and worst selling console up to this point, catching on fire and becoming a cash cow given the (probable) worst recession in 70 years?
-No major exclusive franchise games coming down the pipe to kickstart sales. Even if there were, the MGS4 bump lasted a couple of months, and within a short time PS3 was back to where it was in sales before MGS4

I don't think there is an easy solution to the problem for Sony. Sounds like the PSP and PS2 are still profitable, so they will most likely stay as part of Sony's plans given any restructuring. The PS3 though has lost a lot of money, and given the points I've made above, will not be in a position to make a large amount of profit for some time. Could it be profitable one day? Of course. But can Sony afford to continue to pump cash into the PS3 to keep it on life support until that day comes, when the rest of their company is hurting? Not so sure about that.

And although I know that on GAF you are supposed to choose sides first, then construct arguments, I think it would be catastrophic for Sony to pull out of PS3 development. Even if they only did it partially. Many Japanese developers in particular would be screwed, some would go out of business. The same could be said for Western Sony developers, as we've seen with Free Radical and Factor 5 what can happen when you make an exclusive game for PS3 which doesn't sell well (and fairly, in those cases, the games weren't very good). Along with PS3 owners who would be Dreamcasted.

But damn, the meltdown on GAF would be something. :D
 
antiloop said:
It's not like they can revive one of their classic IPs in a day or two. Some of you live in la-la-land.

That would be a solution in the long-term. But they need a short-term solution also.
Click to expand...

Well, a couple are being revived in Jaffe's Twisted Metal project that everyone knows he's working on, but hasn't been announced. Obviously God of War 3 whenever it comes out will move quite a bit of units and sell well. I don't see much of that list being revived though. Maybe Crash Bandicoot or Jax.
 
Averon said:
Ted runs a tight, efficient ship at Insomniac, so I wouldn't be surprised if R2 is already in the black for them.
Click to expand...

Ya R2 had a extremely fast turn around time considering the size of the project. It could have used a few moths more in the oven. But releasing it when they did is going to ensure they stay in the black.

I'm not worried about Insomniac at all.
 
mikekennyb said:
Sony has a massive problem on their hands with the PS3.

-It's losing crazy amounts of money
-Doesn't have Windows and Office sales cash to throw at the problem a la Microsoft
-the sales situation there is not improving
-What are the odds of the most expensive, and worst selling console up to this point, catching on fire and becoming a cash cow given the (probable) worst recession in 70 years?
-No major exclusive franchise games coming down the pipe to kickstart sales. Even if there were, the MGS4 bump lasted a couple of months, and within a short time PS3 was back to where it was in sales before MGS4

I don't think there is an easy solution to the problem for Sony. Sounds like the PSP and PS2 are still profitable, so they will most likely stay as part of Sony's plans given any restructuring. The PS3 though has lost a lot of money, and given the points I've made above, will not be in a position to make a large amount of profit for some time. Could it be profitable one day? Of course. But can Sony afford to continue to pump cash into the PS3 to keep it on life support until that day comes, when the rest of their company is hurting? Not so sure about that.

And although I know that on GAF you are supposed to choose sides first, then construct arguments, I think it would be catastrophic for Sony to pull out of PS3 development. Even if they only did it partially. Many Japanese developers in particular would be screwed, some would go out of business. The same could be said for Western Sony developers, as we've seen with Free Radical and Factor 5 what can happen when you make an exclusive game for PS3 which doesn't sell well (and fairly, in those cases, the games weren't very good). Along with PS3 owners who would be Dreamcasted.

But damn, the meltdown on GAF would be something. :D
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While PS3 may show losses in the gaming division, it helped blu-ray sales (some blu-ray movies are Sony Pictures, which they receive the money from) and HDTV sales increased when PS3 came out (wouldn't be surprised if some bought a new HDTV with their PS3). While selling a PS3 may show some loses in the gaming division, they are made up elsewhere (which explains why despite the PS division losing money, Sony still profited overall). If there never was a PS3, HDTV sales probably would have been down just a little for them, they probably wouldn't have the HD format won, and blu-ray disc profits (like from Sony Pictures movies) would have been way lower.
 
I'm wondering why they aren't supporting the PSP better, the system actually sells quite well and has shown to be profitable. Development costs are lower and it seems to be a no-brainer to put projects like Little Big Planet on there. Home might've suited the PSP better as well, a more streamlined version to keep in contact with your friends and family during trips add some worthwhile arcade games and install it on the PSP out of the box to reduce loadtimes. That sure sounds like a winner in my book, the only thing that the PS3 needs is the high profile releases like GT5, Heavy Rain, Killzone 2 and God of War 3, the third party support is good enough to keep potential buyers interested when there aren't Sony first party games around. With titles like Resistance 2, Motorstorm 2 and others they're just competing with third party software. Unlike the PS3 the PSP is actually affordable for most consumers.
 
kpop100 said:
The size really isn't that bad when you consider the HDD is housed inside it and no power brick.
Click to expand...
It's still bad from a mainstream perspective. Doesn't matter whats inside and what not. Most people don't care. A slim PS3 would sell far better.

Do consumers care whats inside a Wii? Clearly they don't.

I do think that the PS3 is amazingly built, but I'm also not the mainstream consumer that Sony needs to sell their products to.
 
BoilersFan23 said:
While PS3 may show losses in the gaming division, it helped blu-ray sales (some blu-ray movies are Sony Pictures, which they receive the money from) and HDTV sales increased when PS3 came out (wouldn't be surprised if some bought a new HDTV with their PS3). While selling a PS3 may show some loses in the gaming division, they are made up elsewhere (which explains why despite the PS division losing money, Sony still profited overall). If there never was a PS3, HDTV sales probably would have been down just a little for them, they probably wouldn't have the HD format won, and blu-ray disc profits (like from Sony Pictures movies) would have been way lower.
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This.

This cannot be forgotten--the PS3 has helped bolster other divisions of Sony, and I'm sure that was half the point in making the PS3 HD and blu-ray. Personally, I don't have the money to own one yet, but I look forward to owning one no later than a year from now. I can't say for certain that the PS3 has been a good or bad thing for Sony, but it has had helped Sony in other areas. While it may be causing a loss now, I would stick with it if I were Sony. There are plenty of other areas that could use cuts, but don't expect to see the PS3 disappear, as the OP suggests. Some cuts in the gaming department may occur, but they'll continue to produce the hardware.

I'm really hoping for a PS3 slim soon. I know it's a little earlier, but it wouldn't hurt if they could knock the price down without lowering the reliability to the level that the 360 was once at (which they should be able to do)
 
BoilersFan23 said:
While PS3 may show losses in the gaming division, it helped blu-ray sales (some blu-ray movies are Sony Pictures, which they receive the money from) and HDTV sales increased when PS3 came out (wouldn't be surprised if some bought a new HDTV with their PS3). While selling a PS3 may show some loses in the gaming division, they are made up elsewhere (which explains why despite the PS division losing money, Sony still profited overall). If there never was a PS3, HDTV sales probably would have been down just a little for them, they probably wouldn't have the HD format won, and blu-ray disc profits (like from Sony Pictures movies) would have been way lower.
Click to expand...

I'm not sure it's possible to be more wrong than this. Was it even possible to buy a SDTV by the time the PS3 came out?
 
Private Hoffman said:
Yes because the previous 2 years are indicative of the next 7-10 years.

There has always been a massive investment during the start of each console cycle from Sony. No one is going to argue that Sony probably spent way too much on the PS3, however what's done is largely done; Sony had to keep the PS3 afloat during its first few years taking on massive losses on the hardware.

Now that the PS3's manufacturing costs have come down considerably, and Sony hasn't dropped the price further for this quarter, they are looking to get back in the black for their gaming division. They shouldn't be too far removed from that reality.

In other words, just because the previous 2 years saw massive losses doesn't mean that, going forward, the gaming division will continue to bleed like that. In fact, if anything, if Sony manages to continue cutting costs further, then their gaming division may actually be one of the better divisions of Sony. The problem is that they may not be able to drop the price as much as they want to in order stop the bleeding from Sony as a whole, but certainly I wouldn't expect the gaming division to be anywhere near the axe compared to some of their other divisions.
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:lol


is this entire post just another variation on the "wait for..." meme? whats with the endless hopeless unrealistic optimism?
 
Sony's recent non-action shows me they expect 1st place is out and probably 2nd place too. There's no way they will recuperate the money lost from PS3 this gen. Their strategy seems to be minimizing the damage done. Hope they learn their lesson and price their next system reasonably. It also needs to be launch 1st or close to it. People don't seem to realize how important it was for PS1 / PS2 success.
 
Blame! said:
:lol

is this entire post just another variation on the "wait for..." meme? whats with the endless hopeless unrealistic optimism?
Click to expand...

Private Hoffman is a very optimistic guy
 
Sklorenz said:
This.

This cannot be forgotten--the PS3 has helped bolster other divisions of Sony, and I'm sure that was half the point in making the PS3 HD and blu-ray. Personally, I don't have the money to own one yet, but I look forward to owning one no later than a year from now. I can't say for certain that the PS3 has been a good or bad thing for Sony, but it has had helped Sony in other areas. While it may be causing a loss now, I would stick with it if I were Sony. There are plenty of other areas that could use cuts, but don't expect to see the PS3 disappear, as the OP suggests. Some cuts in the gaming department may occur, but they'll continue to produce the hardware.
Click to expand...
You can spin this endlessly though. What if PS3 didn't include Blu-Ray and didn't cost 599, while still selling at a loss? IMO, the market would look completely different now, and Ken probably would have kept his job.
 
knitoe said:
Sony's recent non-action shows me they expect 1st place is out and probably 2nd place too. There's no way they will recuperate the money lost from PS3 this gen. Their strategy seems to be minimizing the damage done. Hope they learn their lesson and price their next system reasonably. It also needs to be launch 1st or close to it. People don't seem to realize how important it was for PS1 / PS2 success.
Click to expand...

Technically both the PS1 and PS2 were a year behind the lead console of their respective generations. And naturally they will be able to better price their next console since it won't be utilizing new CPU architecture, and Blu-ray diodes will cost as much as DVD ones do now.
 
I'm sure everyone including myself is getting worried over nothing. There is more to the Sony division then just their games. They are probably looking for a better way to market the system.

Also, they are going to regardless of how much profit they lose, cut the cost of PS3 to try to brute force itself out of the hole.
 
Hellraizer said:
It's still bad from a mainstream perspective. Doesn't matter whats inside and what not. Most people don't care. A slim PS3 would sell far better.

Do consumers care whats inside a Wii? Clearly they don't.

I do think that the PS3 is amazingly built, but I'm also not the mainstream consumer that Sony needs to sell their products to.
Click to expand...


That is absurd as saying Ferrari is bad from a mainstream perspective. You think Ferrari just doesn't know how to make a budget car because their engineers are clueless and suck?

Sony has already committed on a target audience (aka people who buy lots of games). And they built the box to appeal to that target demographic. At least they remember who their fans are and cater to them. Can't say the same for Nintendo.
 
PuppetMaster said:
That is absurd as saying Ferrari is bad from a mainstream perspective. You think Ferrari just doesn't know how to make a budget car because their engineers are clueless and suck?

Sony has already committed on a target audience (aka people who buy lots of games). And they built the box to appeal to that target demographic. At least they remember who their fans are and cater to them. Can't say the same for Nintendo.
Click to expand...

I can't tell you how happy this post makes me.

Mmmmmmmm, car analogies. Soooo tasty.
 
PuppetMaster said:
That is absurd as saying Ferrari is bad from a mainstream perspective. You think Ferrari just doesn't know how to make a budget car because their engineers are clueless and suck?

Sony has already committed on a target audience (aka people who buy lots of games). And they built the box to appeal to that target demographic. At least they remember who their fans are and cater to them. Can't say the same for Nintendo.
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Oh please, a Ferrari is luxury, the PS3 is a god damn toy.
 
I need to post this:

2007: -$1,970,923,859
2008: -$1,079,994,103

They are bleeding money. One of their biggest years ever was 99 with $1,102,563,500 of profit. In 2006 they profited like 70 or 80 millions if memory doesn't fail me. So yeah, they are in a hole.
 
Hellraizer said:
You can spin this endlessly though. What if PS3 didn't include Blu-Ray and didn't cost 599, while still selling at a loss? IMO, the market would look completely different now, and Ken probably would have kept his job.
Click to expand...
My thoughts exactly, people actually waited for the PS3 when the Xbox 360 was already on the market. Sony almost beat Microsoft before the race even started. The PS3 launched for $599 and.. it was over, the system didn't deliver and they messed up everything from rumble to Final Fantasy XIII. To make things worse Nintendo ran off with the casual market that would've snapped up Singstar and Buzz at the right price.
 
PuppetMaster said:
At least they remember who their fans are and cater to them. Can't say the same for Nintendo.
Click to expand...

"This show is not about me. No, this program is dedicated to you. The heroes.
And who are the heroes? The people who watch this show."
 
antiloop said:
The Ferrari is also a toy though.

Horribly expensive toy but still a toy.
Click to expand...
Well, yeah, it is a toy too, but like you said, horribly expensive and an absolute luxury, the targeted audiences for the Ferrari and PS3 are not comparable, especially since Sony wants to sell a PS3 to everyone possible, is competing with the 360 and Wii, and isn't too far away from a similar price standpoint too. I really cannot agree with this analogy.

Maybe if Sony would sell the Ps3 for over a 1000$ and only in limited supplies, then it would be the ferrari of the consoles.
 
antiloop said:
The Ferrari is also a toy though.

Horribly expensive but still a toy.
Click to expand...

True the analogy fails for other reasons than the price.

For one, no one has ever seen Ferrari only gasoline or roads. Meanwhile putting PS3 game disks in a 360 doesn't seem to work that well.
 
Hellraizer said:
Well, yeah, it is a toy too, but like you said, horribly expensive and an absolute luxury, the targeted audiences for the Ferrari and PS3 are not comparable, especially since Sony wants to sell a PS3 to everyone possible, is competing with the 360 and Wii, and isn't too far away from a similar price standpoint too.
Click to expand...

True, but I would say the PS3 isn't targeting the same market. At least here in Europe. It's too expensive compared to the Wii and 360.
 
PuppetMaster said:
That is absurd as saying Ferrari is bad from a mainstream perspective. You think Ferrari just doesn't know how to make a budget car because their engineers are clueless and suck?

Sony has already committed on a target audience (aka people who buy lots of games). And they built the box to appeal to that target demographic. At least they remember who their fans are and cater to them. Can't say the same for Nintendo.
Click to expand...

A lot of wrong in one post:

- PS3 is not selling to people that buys lots of games; their attach ratio is the lowest of the three consoles.

- Their games are taking waaaaaaaaaaay long to get released; Nintendo released all of it's big franchises in less than 2 years; PS3 owners will have to wait until 2010 at least for both GoW 3 and GT5. I mean, people are expecting Killzone 2 (lol) to be a big seller and turn things around.

- FIAT makes money for every Ferrari they sell, I'm not so sure if SONY makes money from every PS3 they sell.
 
Next thing you know, Toyota selling $200K-$1 million cars. That's a successful formula to be top selling auto maker right there. Remember, you heard it on GAF first.
 
Calidor said:
Sony going third party. There, I said it.
Click to expand...

No, just no. I don't see Sony closing up shop on a division that kept it profitable for years, obviously up until PS3. Most drastic thing I could see happening is some of the Sony first party workforce getting cut, PS3 slim redesign to re-launch at $249, Home to be cancelled, etc. And even the part about PS3 Slim is absurd, IMO. I don't see Sony completely shuttering the Playstation brand.
 
Well I think its safe to say that Sony's movie and music divisions are safe. Its gotta be home electronics and perhaps electronic entertainment.

The PS3 is bleeding money but I'm doubting they are going to drop it. This probably means a major re-focusing of their games department though. I don't see Sony being the fancy-pants option for electronics in the future if Stringer has his way.
 
Blame! said:
:lol


is this entire post just another variation on the "wait for..." meme? whats with the endless hopeless unrealistic optimism?
Click to expand...
His entire psyche rests on Sony winning the console wars. He'll either continue to claim that Sony won after they've exited the console business, or he will have such a fantastic mental break and ensuing meltdown upon that realization that we'll be quoting it for years and both Mama Robotnik and Junkwaffle will produce art commemorating it.
 
I just realised that I don't really care whether the Sony Gaming Division makes money or bleeds it, as long as it doesn't go under.

Make more games I want to play.
 
manueldelalas said:
A lot of wrong in one post:

- PS3 is not selling to people that buys lots of games; their attach ratio is the lowest of the three consoles.
Click to expand...

Wii was much lower last I checked. Especially if you consider that Wii Play should not count toward attach ratio.
 
andycapps said:
No, just no. I don't see Sony closing up shop on a division that kept it profitable for years, obviously up until PS3. Most drastic thing I could see happening is some of the Sony first party workforce getting cut, PS3 slim redesign to re-launch at $249, Home to be cancelled, etc. And even the part about PS3 Slim is absurd, IMO. I don't see Sony completely shuttering the Playstation brand.
Click to expand...

No no no, they need to relaunch the PS3 along with Vanguard. Kill 2 birds with 1 stone.

TheRagnCajun said:
Well I think its safe to say that Sony's movie and music divisions are safe. Its gotta be home electronics and perhaps electronic entertainment.

The PS3 is bleeding money but I'm doubting they are going to drop it. This probably means a major re-focusing of their games department though. I don't see Sony being the fancy-pants option for electronics in the future if Stringer has his way.
Click to expand...

The whole problem with the PS3 and with car analogies to it is that having a "fancy-pants" console makes no economic sense whatsoever.

Developers aren't going to want to make games for a luxury console with a small install base. Even more so when developing a game that really takes advantage of that console costs a fortune.

Consumers aren't going to want to pay a premium for a console that developers aren't making games for, thus starting the cycle anew.
 
andycapps said:
No, just no. I don't see Sony closing up shop on a division that kept it profitable for years, obviously up until PS3. Most drastic thing I could see happening is some of the Sony first party workforce getting cut, PS3 slim redesign to re-launch at $249, Home to be cancelled, etc. And even the part about PS3 Slim is absurd, IMO. I don't see Sony completely shuttering the Playstation brand.
Click to expand...

I doubt Home will get canceled. It shouldn't cost that much to keep it up and running, and Sony can sell overpriced DLC which is apparently selling going by anecdotal evidence in the Home thread.
 
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