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[rocketknight]

^- Bingo

I mean, there are real live actual trans people in this thread, just as there were real live actual gay people in the Minnesota marriage equality thread today. I bet it's really fun for them to have their existence "debated" and "disagreed" with.

 

[Devolution]

I mean, there are real live actual trans people in this thread, just as there were real live actual gay people in the Minnesota marriage equality thread today. I bet it's really fun for them to have their existence "debated" and "disagreed" with.

That's the thing they don't get. They're trying to debate the very idea of transgenderism.

 

[Gonzo The Great]

The next time someone who genuinely needs money for a life-saving operation sets up a fundraiser, they're going to have a harder time convincing people to donate because of the shit that Sagal has pulled. I'm sorry that this person is in a difficult place right now, but a scam is a scam no matter which way you slice it, and lying to people in order to get their money is deplorable.

Well said. Why am I not surprised that people are justifying fraud just because Chloe is transgendered?

 

[faceless007]

I read Allistair's piece and I still don't understand why he thought it was necessary to finally out her as trans. I understand him not wanting to enable her self-destructive behavior and how he felt an obligation as a journalist to be truthful about the fundraiser, but it's a pretty big -- and dangerous -- leap from there to outing her. If he really felt he needed to say something about his involvement, he could have simply said that he had confirmed from Sagal that the fundraiser was based on false pretenses, and she is alive and receiving medical attention. More than that is nobody else's business.

He writes that he wanted to avoid becoming part of the story as a journalist, but it seems to me that's exactly what he did by outing her anyway. I understand wanting her to get help, but outing her to the Internet, and specifically the gamer community that was already feeling highly negative towards her, is likely to accomplish the exact opposite of that. When she finds out that she has been publicly outed by someone she trusted to keep it confidential...I can't imagine how that could possibly help her in the fragile state she will be in for the near future.

Really, this part is pretty galling:

Whatever the case, Chloe is a troubled person that I couldn't help but I feel an obligation to sharing the truth and furthering a greater good that would put an end to people building up her story falsely and damning IndieGoGo, who went above and beyond in not outing her. Seeing others connect the dots about Chloe on Reddit and NeoGAF made coming out with the truth easier for me, since I was only confirming what others already suspected. It was her attempted suicide that made it so easy, though.

...knowing that a trans person has attempted suicide makes it easier to out them? Really?

 

[NoirVisage]

This must be what it was like to live during any of the civil rights movements or the abolition of slavery. Cannot believe the comments some people are making about a person in here.

Kill that noise, don't try to make feeling like a you were born in the wrong body and fighting to be called a woman rather than a man , is anywhere in the same galaxy as being dragged out of your homeland to toil in fields as animals, being maimed raped and beaten half to death and wanting to be free and treated like a human being.

I have a lot of respect for the gay rights movement, and the non-violent means they utilize, but you belittle my kinsmen and ancestors when you try to make that parallel.

 

[Sage00]

Yeah, I've been using 88 with either my first and last initials or first initial and last name for a long time and only recently found out about it. That is my luck though.

You know, there's a WW2-era song people sing. "Hitler has only got one ball. The other is in the Albert Hall." You've had a run of bad luck here, can't say you didn't deserve it though. Go take a rest.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

While I certainly understand where you're coming from, open debate means tolerating those views that you find intolerable.

Besides, you aren't going to progress debate by excluding people based on your own moral compass, and all you do by shunting those who you disagree strongly with is if anything going to re-enforce their views by pushing them towards others with similar views.

Rubius' big contribution was comparing a desperate trans person to a mentally ill drug addict. This is a view I'd rather shun than attempt to understand. Judge me.

 

[Devolution]

Kill that noise, don't try to make feeling like a you were born in the wrong body and fighting to be called a woman rather than a man , is anywhere on the same galaxy as being dragged out of your homeland to toil in fields as animals, being maimed raped and beaten half to death and wanting to be free and treated like a human being.

I have a lot of respect for the gay rights movement, and the non-violent means they utilize, but you belittle my kinsmen and ancestors when you try to make that parallel.

Trans and gay people have been killed.

 

[Diablo Rosso]

I mean, there are real live actual trans people in this thread, just as there were real live actual gay people in the Minnesota marriage equality thread today. I bet it's really fun for them to have their existence "debated" and "disagreed" with.

That was something I was going to mention actually.

 

[Pennywise]

Well, gender dysphoria can be a fatal condition.

That's why I don't like these type of discussions.
As long as we don't know the facts there is way to much room for speculation.
Either way, I'll agree with the rest of your posting.

 

[Stop It]

There isn't progressing debate with someone who's already stonewalling it with ignorance and an unwillingness to concede to facts.

While true, and maybe I'm wrong here, but I always try to learn from debate, even knowing my opinions aren't going to change.

Yes, there's plenty of people here I strongly, passionately disagree with here, but at the very least, I want to understand why people hold such views, as much as I don't like them.

That being said, I can also see that trying to argue with a brick wall isn't entirely going to progress debate either, so from that point of view, yes, it's pointless. Anyway, I'll shut up before derailing this further.

Rubius' big contribution was comparing a desperate trans person to a mentally ill drug addict. This is a view I'd rather shun than attempt to understand. Judge me.

I'm not going to judge you, that's not my place, or my point. I fully accept your viewpoint and know I'm probably in the minority here, but I try to at least understand why someone has reached a certain point of view, even if I totally disagree. In fact, the more I know, the better place I feel I can be to actually make an argument against that view.

 

[Devolution]

While true, and maybe I'm wrong here, but I always try to learn from debate, even knowing my opinions aren't going to change.

Yes, there's plenty of people here I strongly, passionately disagree with here, but at the very least, I want to understand why people hold such views, as much as I don't like them.

That being said, I can also see that trying to argue with a brick wall isn't entirely going to progress debate either, so from that point of view, yes, it's pointless. Anyway, I'll shut up before derailing this further.

There's "holding views" and then there is trying to hold someone's gender hostage because you don't like what they did. This isn't a clash of views. It's a group of people being bigoted and called out on it.

 

[Sage00]

Trans and gay people have been killed.

No, my abuse of human rights is worse than your abuse of human rights!

Spoiler

He wasn't worth replying to. Don't indulge him.

 

[Devolution]

No, my abuse of human rights is worse than your abuse of human rights!

Spoiler

He wasn't worth replying to. Don't indulge him.

It's silly, co-opting what happened to his ancestors while trans people are still being killed today for being trans.

 

[Principate]

It's silly, co-opting what happened to his ancestors while trans people are still being killed today for being trans.

Ethic cleansing still goes on today. So that's a silly statement.

 

[Devolution]

Ethic cleansing still goes on today. So that's a silly statement.

Except that wasn't he said was it.

 

[NoirVisage]

No, my abuse of human rights is worse than your abuse of human rights!

Spoiler

He wasn't worth replying to. Don't indulge him.

In other words you have no actual response, noted.

Trans and gay people have been killed.

You really went there.
It would be wise for me to just watch this discussion and see just how out of touch with the world I truly am.

 

[lexi]

I mean, there are real live actual trans people in this thread, just as there were real live actual gay people in the Minnesota marriage equality thread today. I bet it's really fun for them to have their existence "debated" and "disagreed" with.

Gaffers can't say anything to me that I haven't heard the 1000000x worse version of. People have begged me to kill myself. People have gotten giddy with excitement at the prospect that their harassment of me might lead to my suicide.

 

[params7]

...knowing that a trans person has attempted suicide makes it easier to out them? Really?

From what I understand, it was just the attempted suicide that prompted the outing.

Though I think its hilarious you think people should rather get scammed out of their money than transgendered people being outed for any wrongdoings. Then again I always see you in these threads only sticking up for one specific extreme, 100% of the time.

 

[Sage00]

From what I understand, it was just the attempted suicide that prompted the outing.

Though I think its hilarious you think people should rather get scammed out of their money than transgendered people being outed for any wrongdoings. Then again I always see you in these threads only sticking up for one specific extreme, 100% of the time.

Do you understand the basic, legal concept of diminished responsibility?

 

[Moral Panic]

I really despise people lying in order to get charity from people, but it's sad to hear that she was in such a state that she felt the need to do things like this. I don't know what she has gone through to get to this state but I don't think that's an excuse for lying and (if what I read was true) threatening suicide to people who wanted to reveal the truth.

 

[faceless007]

Though I think its hilarious you think people should rather get scammed out of their money than transgendered people being outed for any wrongdoings. Then again I always see you in these threads only sticking up for one specific extreme, 100% of the time.

There are like four factually wrong things in this post. Impressive.

 

[params7]

Do you understand the basic, legal concept of diminished responsibility?

Have we established the person is mentally impaired?

 

[Principate]

Except that wasn't he said was it.

It's the exact same thing discrimination against race are you so short sighted not to see that. There's no higher ground in your discussion. People get killed for a variety of reasons it's horrible either way, but don't pretend people dying now and people dying then aren't equivalent. The reasons both exist and are prevalent.

 

[NoirVisage]

There are like four factually wrong things in this post. Impressive.

? list?

 

[Sage00]

Have we established the person is mentally impaired?

Are you kidding? They attempted suicide.

 

[rocketknight]

That's the thing they don't get. They're trying to debate the very idea of transgenderism.

It's just so bizarre to me watching those Republicans get up and talk about gay people as if they know more about being gay than actual gay people do, and to see people doing the same thing in this thread. Like, if you know you aren't trans or gay or whatever, and you know that people participating in the conversation are trans or gay or whatever, what on earth would make you think that you know more about themselves than they do? Or to challenge actual doctors or psychologists or science or whatever just because you yourself think something different with no justification? It's just such a weird thing.

Sorry for the derail.

 

[Katori]

I hope Chloe gets the help that she so obviously needs, and I'm not talking about SRS, I'm talking about treatment for her severe depression which led to 1) this scam and 2) her suicide attempt. I am honestly praying that someone will facilitate her getting that help.

She scammed people and that sucks. But no person on this Earth should have feelings like hers that are untreated--thank you, American healthcare (and mental healthcare) system.

I hope that Chloe can either see that she can be happy without SRS, or that she gets SRS some-day. And I hope that people in this thread and all across the Internet can stop being so hateful and try to understand that there ARE people different from you. Just because you don't understand them doesn't mean that you can belittle them.

 

[Devolution]

It's the exact same thing discrimination against race are you so short sighted not to see that. There's no higher ground in your discussion. People get killed for a variety of reasons it's horrible either way, but don't pretend people dying now and people dying then aren't equivalent. The reasons both exist and are prevalent.

No I do see that, you're apparently unaware how context works.

 

[Gonzo The Great]

It's just so bizarre to me watching those Republicans get up and talk about gay people as if they know more about being gay than actual gay people do, and to see people doing the same thing in this thread. Like, if you know you aren't trans or gay or whatever, and you know that people participating in the conversation are trans or gay or whatever, what on earth would make you think that you know more about themselves than they do? Or to challenge actual doctors or psychologists or science or whatever just because you yourself think something different with no justification? It's just such a weird thing.

Sorry for the derail.

You should be, because sexuality and gender are two totally different things.

 

[Giolon]

Edit - nvm, just contributing to keeping this thread off track.

 

[CREMSteve]

Sad story

 

[Principate]

No I do see that, you're apparently unaware how context works.

Tell what your context is. You haven't remotely even bothered to provide an argument whereas I've made my view point perfectly clear what is this context you speak of where you consider current discrimination against transgendered people some how worse than racial discrimination. I'm interested to know.

 

[AH88]

You should be, because sexuality and gender are two totally different things.

That's what I thought.

 

[params7]

Are you kidding? They attempted suicide.

No, you have got to be kidding me. Lot of people not diagnosed with any mental illness attempt suicide for variety of reasons. Many times for attention, go ask parents raising teenagers.

 

[Devolution]

Tell what your context is. You haven't remotely even bothered to provide an argument whereas I've made my view point perfectly clear what is this context you speak of where you consider current discrimination against transgendered people some how worse than racial discrimination. I'm interested to know.

I don't know how to explain how a conversation works to you.

 

[Gentleman Jack]

I'm not going to judge you, that's not my place, or my point. I fully accept your viewpoint and know I'm probably in the minority here, but I try to at least understand why someone has reached a certain point of view, even if I totally disagree. In fact, the more I know, the better place I feel I can be to actually make an argument against that view.

It's not as if I can't understand how dealing with people on the worst day of their lives over and over again for a living (I'm buds with an EMT in Oakland, a social worker in El Paso and a public defender in Los Angeles lol) can make you very callous and suspicious of taking what people say at face value. I get it; people lie and it has a corrosive effect on perception.

What I don't get, or care to understand, is how you can project that experience onto a complete stranger (in this case, Chloe) and proclaim complete indifference to whether she lives or dies. There's no common ground to find there. I'd rather disengage from it. I see little value in jousting back and forth about how much people care about this person.

 

[Rubius]

So someone likely used to people making snide comments on her using the wrong bathroom and people using the wrong pronouns (which you just did, by the way, but that could be a typo) on a regular basis naturally reacted suspiciously to a comment you made. So what? You're telling people to be more tolerant towards bigoted/ignorant comments, but for no one to learn from it and realize why someone would be offended by being referred to as the wrong pronouns?

I'm French, so I dont know why, but I always get myself to use his on stuff like that. Which is strange since in French every single thing is male or female. (A chair for example is female, while a counter is male) Must be my translator in my brain going weird on that issue.

Also, I tolerate every single thing in the world. I'm a god damn honey badger. I do not give a single sexual intercourse about what other people do in there life if it does not affect me or if its okay with everybody affected.
Hell, I would be for Bestiality if we could communicate with animals. I really dont care.
I care about few things. Work, Money, and my immediate family (Mother, Father, Brother). I dont care about my cousins or uncle because I see them once a year and that's it. So yeah, I do not care about the death of strangers, and I'm pretty sure nobody here does outside of personal gain from it. Mostly because if we started to care about every single death count, then we would be listening to Simple Plan all day and all die from severe depression in under a week.
If a lot of people die from a earthquake, I care a little because I'm scared that might happen to me. Not because of the death, but because of my personal life.

I'm just not good at bullshitting people, so when they ask, I say the truth. If they ask about a personal thing, I will tell them, even if its not comfortable for them. Hell, I used to have a lot of fun when girls at the office said "Oh yeah that dude is hot". I turned around and said my opinion on the dude, "Meh not my kind" or "Oh yeah, he's cute" which made everybody either super unconfortable or super curious about wether or not I was gay, which I'm not.

I dont know, maybe I'm the weird one, or everybody is the weird one, I dont know. Hell, maybe I should go see a shrink to get a diagnostic and see if I'm really sociopath level 1 or what ever. But I do not care about a random stranger suicide failed attempt when she just tried to scam people money under false pretenses.

 

[Risette]

Tell what your context is. You haven't remotely even bothered to provide an argument whereas I've made my view point perfectly clear what is this context you speak of where you consider current discrimination against transgendered people some how worse than racial discrimination. I'm interested to know.

This must be what it was like to live during any of the civil rights movements or the abolition of slavery. Cannot believe the comments some people are making about a person in here.

->

Kill that noise, don't try to make feeling like a you were born in the wrong body and fighting to be called a woman rather than a man , is anywhere in the same galaxy as being dragged out of your homeland to toil in fields as animals, being maimed raped and beaten half to death and wanting to be free and treated like a human being.

I have a lot of respect for the gay rights movement, and the non-violent means they utilize, but you belittle my kinsmen and ancestors when you try to make that parallel.

->

Trans and gay people have been killed.

hth

 

[Daingurse]

No, you have got to be kidding me. Lot of people not diagnosed with any mental illness attempt suicide for variety of reasons. Many times for attention, go ask parents raising teenagers.

A cry for help is usually a sign of a deeper issue, if someone attempts suicide the reasons do not fucking matter. They have issues, period. Whether that's mental illness or some other stressor, doesn't matter. Something is very wrong. So yeah not necessarily mental illness, but it feels like your trivializing it in your tone, it's not just for teenagers who want attention.

 

[xbhaskarx]

Revealing the truth behind her being a scammer doesn't require her being outed and put on display as a ~deceptive transgender~

If this person wanted the money for meth or a new iPhone that would be possible, but if the money was for gender reassignment surgery, how was this avoidable?

 

[Principate]

I don't know how to explain how a conversation works to you.

Nice argument you have there. Seriously don't bother trying to engage in a conversation if you cannot even be bothered to provide reasons for your view points. It wastes the time for all involved.

 

[Devolution]

Nice argument you have there. Seriously don't bother trying to engage in a conversation if you cannot even be bothered to provide reasons for your view points. It wastes the time for all involved.

What reasons and viewpoints? My initial post was crystal clear.

 

[Risette]

Nice argument you have there. Seriously don't bother trying to engage in a conversation if you cannot even be bothered to provide reasons for your view points. It wastes the time for all involved.

Her view points don't contradict anything you say. You're talking past her.

 

[faceless007]

? list?

Hint: the whole post.

 

[params7]

Hint: the whole post.

Nice reasoning though. Impressive debating. You sure it was four and not five?

 

[Principate]

Her view points don't contradict anything you say. You're talking past her.

Yes he did she was talking and how they weren't the same due to context I asked what context she declined to mention it.

 

[NoirVisage]

->


->




hth

you agree that they are equivalent as well? Because that was tantamount to telling someone who was paralyzed "Well hey, I lost an eye, we're both in the same boat"

 

[rocketknight]

You should be, because sexuality and gender are two totally different things.

Yeah, I was just trying to draw parallels with the Minnesota thread today. Everybody was laughing at the Republicans doing to gay people what some people here are doing to trans people. Sorry if I gave the wrong impression.

 

[Dusk Golem]

Interesting developments. She tackled this completely wrong, and escalated things that didn't need to be escalated. But she also obviously is not in the right state of mind and obviously doesn't trust people about it. Due to people's reaction or attitude towards it, I don't blame her. But that doesn't excuse lying or excuse scamming people. But then to her, she wasn't scamming them. She wasn't running off with money, she was getting surgery she viewed as a life or death matter. But that was because she narrowed her minds eye out of fear and problems mentally.

I don't really think at this point there is a single victim or anything unrecoverable. Her suicide was averted, the crowdfunding was refunded, Indiegogo and Twitch did the right things, etc. Hopefully this situation can turn productive rather than destructive for all involved.