Seraphis Cain
bad gameplay lol
The thing is, Josh posted his apology BEFORE Jason's article went up. Josh seemingly knew the backlash was coming, and attempted to head it off at the pass. If Jason hadn't posted his article, SOMEONE would have.
IndieStatik Founder apologizes for "inappropriate" comments to female game dev
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The thing is, Josh posted his apology BEFORE Jason's article went up. Josh seemingly knew the backlash was coming, and attempted to head it off at the pass. If Jason hadn't posted his article, SOMEONE would have.
eyeball_kid
Member
Do game devs and game journalists usually have such close relationships? She felt comfortable enough at first to mention her divorce, and had obviously discussed it with him in the past. I'm just curious, because none of the client relationships in my line of work have ever gotten to the point of discussing personal traumas in their life, except for some people that just had no filters about their personal lives.
I'd say this goes back to the time-tested wisdom: don't mix business and friends. My guess is, this was a lonely, thirrrrrsty dude who got in deep with the moonshine that night and, because of his previous level of friendship with her, and maybe because he saw 'divorce' as an opening move, took it over the line. Way, way, way over the line and into a parallel universe where guys offer to kiss vaginas as a respectful greeting to women. (I still keep reading that line in my head with a Borat voice)
I'd say this goes back to the time-tested wisdom: don't mix business and friends. My guess is, this was a lonely, thirrrrrsty dude who got in deep with the moonshine that night and, because of his previous level of friendship with her, and maybe because he saw 'divorce' as an opening move, took it over the line. Way, way, way over the line and into a parallel universe where guys offer to kiss vaginas as a respectful greeting to women. (I still keep reading that line in my head with a Borat voice)
Why is that?
faceless007
Member
I'm not sure why you're asking this in this topic. It's completely irrelevant to the subject of the thread. There's no subjectivity in this case; Mattingly and the unnamed developer were professional contacts and he ostensibly contacted her to try to get some industry information. That's about as far from the type of relationship or context that would make his "banter" acceptable as you can get. There's nothing arbitrary whatsoever about the guidelines that deem his behavior unacceptable. Maybe worry about the grey areas for when there actually is one?
That said, if you're asking for a precise and explicit series of instructions and conditions by which to navigate social interactions around women, sorry, social etiquette isn't a computer program. It's inherent in human interaction that there's going to be an element of subjectivity, there's no way around that. That said, there are plenty of clues and contexts that most people should learn to read and understand. Not the least of which is not acting that way to someone you only know in a professional context. Also if you say something sexual and the other person ignores it, you should probably stop.
Because it determines whether or not they'd be a good fit for a company that's hiring. Most likely HR wouldn't hire someone who has been involved with sexual harassment issues. Wait, are you really this thick?
Principate
Saint Titanfall
I stick with my Joey from Friends comment. He went so far past the line he couldn't even see the line. The line was a dot to him.
Fotheringay
Member
What I'm referring to is the back and forths in this thread between people saying "Blunt overtures never work, LMAO #thirstisreal" followed by someone's immediate personal anecdote of how being blunt, and potentially offensive actually did work. All I was postulating is how a consensus could be reached more uniformly for the variety of situations where flirting crosses into harassment. Seems the old porn "You know it when you see it" argument is really all we have.
It seems people have low thresholds for beginning a witch hunt, and high thresholds for ending them. Merely giving a bit of context/explanation invalidates your effort to apologize for what you did. We can utterly demonize someone for whichever of their mistakes surface to public view, but sympathy/understanding/patience/whatever apparently have little to no place in the discussion. The full picture is too good for people who stumble into a public shaming.
Josh Mattingly seems to have a bit of immature asshole in him, and the game developer on the receiving end of his blatantly unsolicited advances was amazingly graceful in dealing with him. In this moment, Josh became a part of the problem of how women are treated in the industry. I think this is a useful reminder that the issue of sexism isn't necessarily contributed to consciously, or by people with clearly malicious intent. In our day to day interactions, sometimes more or less perfectly okay people will engage in behavior with sexist dimensions and not at all realize it - even among the people actually making an effort to battle that exact sexism. Collectively, we all have much to learn still. It's worth trying to be self-aware of this.
So fire them if you find out they're not a good fit. Why should they have a right to preemptively punish someone for a past mistake? I don't think they should have that right at all.
Vermillion
Banned
Nice aim
ThreePiMatt
Member
Well, technically as alcoholism is classified as a disability a hiring manager cannot use it as a means to deny employment under the Americans With Disabilities Act.
NTIETS13A_Superiority
Banned
What! Jaffe is right. No means no. You do not need no to sexual assault being sexual assault or rape being rape. Only ignorant lunies would take it that way.
MikeOfTheLivingDead
Grapetastic!
Jason jumped on this immediately after the tweet with the censored screenshot and asked for a name, got the name, then contacted josh for comment, then josh put up the apology. That article was going up whether josh commented or apologized or not.
Because companies are allowed to protect themselves from any potential issues and problem employees? I know this obtuse devil's advocate thing might be cute for you to play around with, but it mostly just makes you look childish.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
They can't use it, but it would a silent rejection either way. Sexual harassment is a just a major no no, that no company wants.
I don't really agree that they should. I think they should have a right to deal with problems as they arise but I don't think they should be allowed to punish people based on past mistakes. For example, a criminal who's served his time shouldn't be discriminated against while searching for a job.
faceless007
Member
You see something wrong with a journalist chasing down a story about bad behavior by a prominent member of the gaming press?
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
He even started a dating advice tumblr that apparently he didn't keep at...and damned if that red light article and that video keep posting don't feel super ironic right now.
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Most jobs are fairly competitive to begin with ideal situation sure, in reality they'd rather have nothing to do with you, especially if your issues are public information.
Sexual harassment cases can cost a company millions. It is a poor business decision to risk it happening again when you can just not hire someone who has sexually harassed colleagues in the past.
vagabondarts
Member
Who talks like this? I mean, really?
Fotheringay
Member
Good luck running a business if it gets out you're hiring people convicted of sexual assault. Who would want to work with such an employee, and who would want to do business with you?
D
Deleted member 13876
Unconfirmed Member
I loved that episode. "I declare that to be an illegal amount of money" and the buildup to that quote was gold.
That opens up a can of worms of not hiring anyone who's made any sort of mistake in the past. Companies shouldn't really have that much power over people's lives.
Dice//
Banned
A business relationship is one thing (you may chat to break the ice or be friendly with a client, or in the case of correspondence, get into unrelated topics as acquaintances)... but he was just being gross. She ignored his smutty commentary he went on with it waaaay toooo looong.
People aren't robots, but if you're going to dive into being unprofessional with a professional contact, you need to tread incredibly lightly and with great awareness. You can't just "boys will be boys" these situations anymore, it's just no longer acceptable behavior (or excuse).
You've never called a vagina a punching bag?
This is a problem in society. If people can't make a legitimate living even after having supposedly paid for their crime, their only choice becomes making an illegitimate living and ending up back in prison.
Dude deserves to be called out on his shit. What's the problem.
vagabondarts
Member
I just don't understand why you would say anything like that to someone. I could kind of see maybe if they've had serious history together or extremely close friends and comfortable with that kind of conversation with each other. Her unwillingness to join in says a lot though.
Man, I don't even talk to people I work with if I can help it. We're working together to get a job done, let's get it done and move onto the next thing. Business and friendships should remain seperate.
eyeball_kid
Member
Oh, I know, I wasn't excusing his behavior due to her friendliness. At all. But as I said, my business relationships have never involved telling people about my relationship status, which is why I wondered how good of friends they were. Perhaps the game industry is more informal in this aspect, or perhaps developers feel obliged to be more chummy with journalists?
GoodCoffeeJoey
Banned
Does Jaffe have Early-onset Alzheimer's or something?
MikeOfTheLivingDead
Grapetastic!
Yes because firstly, it's basically the lowest form of tabloid journalism. For a bunch of "journalists" who constantly prattle on about wanting to raise the bar in the industry, chasing this and making it a story is a really odd tactic to take. Secondly, there are a lot of missing pieces here and this could have gone and still could go very badly for a lot of people including the nameless victim in a lot of different ways. It's just idiotic to make this "news", and because people are acting on emotion and not thinking, there can be some unintended and dire consequences. In short, this story isn't going to do a damn thing to really address the larger issue of sexual harassment, and it might ruin more than just Josh's career as it circles the toilet that is gaming journalism.
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
Jaffe's starting to make me think he posts on Men's Rights forums or something.
It's Kotaku, not the fucking Guardian. A guy caught with his pants down in a Japanese internet cafe qualifies as news to them. This controversy is slightly above par for the course.
Messofanego
Banned
Leigh Alexander posted this
Probably true. Did Giant Bomb users throw a lot of death threats or lewd replies at her? I only remember there being hate comments about anything related to her mentioned in passing, but didn't remember if any went out of line. I mostly just remember the <> being born from there.
Forceatowulf
G***n S**n*bi
Jesus fucking christ@ that convo....
cheststrongwell
my cake, fuck off
Was this a public conversation? If not, how did it get out? What the fuck is wrong with this guy??
mattiewheels
And then the LORD David Bowie saith to his Son, Jonny Depp: 'Go, and spread my image amongst the cosmos. For every living thing is in anguish and only the LIGHT shall give them reprieve.'
It's the internet. I'm sure she was privy to some ridiculous abuse for the crime of being annoying, on a show with a pretty clique-y fanbase. You've got to assume that a lot of morons just tried to lay into her because she's a girl, but even if there was no sexism involved a lot of people went too far caring about it.
Comfort Jones
Banned
Literally all of that info is in the first link in the op. Was a private conversation they decided to make public, although the names were hidden at first.
god damn, aint that the truth
cheststrongwell
my cake, fuck off
Shit, skimmed over the news link.
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
This x 1000
If being a dude that made a horrible and failed attempt at hitting on a girl prevents you from employment then the wide majority of jobs across the country would be filled by women, and armies of homeless men would crowd the streets.
Storm Chamber
Banned
Ol girl just kinda fell apart after that too
If you look closely enough, you'll see it
Her face is priceless, like where are you going with thi-oh I wish you didn't.
Even he says it doesn't justify it. His depression and being drunk EXPLAINS his behaviour, but as with, say, getting in an car accident while DUI doesn't make you innocent, he does acknowledge it doesn't excuse his behaviour either or free him from possible consequences. Something like the death of your brother can cause you to behave differently. Grief can have a variety of effects on people, everyone handles it differently (some well, others badly), but of course it doesn't make it okay and as I already said, he too acknowledges it.
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