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[JDSN]

The point is, if you're not skilled (or downright atrocious) in those areas of social interaction, as some clearly are, what should the reaction be if you push too far past? Should it be an attempt to educate to someone, or a punitive rebuke? Attempting to delineate by "creepiness" seems fine to many, but that doesn't solve anything for those who genuinely struggle with it. Oni's post I think touches on it well, the difficulty in assessing the severity of such an act and subsequent reaction.

I dont think anyone is saying that you should be shamed for not knowing where the line is, but in the context of the workplace those lines are clearly defined in the shame of human resources policies that you can probably easily acquire. Just like theres people that think that what the guy did is not wrong theres gonna be people that think that some benign comment is bad.

Understanding that people are different shouldn't be a cause to feel panic and shut away from society, even people in their 50s struggle with communicating, but you will never get far if you expect the people you engage to yell rape and mace your face.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Mentioning anecdotal "real life", "society at large", "happens it all the time" kind of stuff pretty much makes your opinion seem needlessly simplistic and makes you seem simplistic as well.

Just because some things happen generally doesn't make them okay or more acceptable in specific instances, especially in the case of harassment.

Bro, I think we should be dudes.

 

[Valnen]

Instead she embarrassed him in front of the whole world..

I don't really think anyone outside of people that actually read enthusiast press websites like Kotaku will know about this though, so I don't think this guy's life will be ruined. He'll be embarrassed by this for a few months and then if he's smart he'll learn something from it.

 

[zeldablue]

Oh come on, this guy is obviously a freak with some severe issues but I refuse to believe that this kind of conversation is the norm in the game industry.

...I spent a lot of time with game design students. The amount of "forwardness" can escalate very quickly.

The guy tweeting has a point. You have to immediately say you're not interested. If it persists you have to assertively say "no." Unfortunately for me and a lot of men and women especially, turning people down is hard because you don't want to offend. A lot of women...do a lot to try and be nice and polite, even to their own detriment. We often smile when we're offended or uncomfortable, and we do a lot of stupid things that aren't upfront enough to make people understand when we're not okay with something.

I can only compare it to bullying. If you allow it to happen it will persist, if you ignore it, it'll actually become worse. but if you really stick up for yourself and get some authority on your side...you'll shut the bullies up.

Since sexual harassment rules are the clear cut "authority," it's a lot easier to stop this sort of behavior.

Though, from the conversation I think the girl just had a good sense of humor and a hefty amount of tolerance. Sometimes you just have to smile, laugh and nod through a lot of stuff. I've put on plenty of smiles for people who blatantly enjoy yelling sexist and racist things when I'm the only minority or girl in the room. Sure, it's uncomfortable, but it's better than fighting a useless fight. It's a weird kind of thick skin, I'm sure a lot of women in the industry deal with it.

 

[docbon]

Bro, I think we should be dudes.

a bromance formed on the social justice battlefields

 

[Marcel]

I don't really think anyone outside of people that actually read enthusiast press websites like Kotaku will know about this though, so I don't think this guy's life will be ruined. He'll be embarrassed by this for a few months and then if he's smart he'll learn something from it.

If he's smart he'll resign from a position that he made look foolish, as well as his organization, co-workers, and industry that he made look foolish in the process as well. As if the games press needed more things to make them look bad.

 

[NullPointer]

Likely because it was an awkward situation for her and she felt that telling him off would have made it a worse situation.

I get this - but it still makes me wince to see. You see somebody getting bullied and you want them to fight back. You want to do something.

But its because of that mindset or strategy of passive acceptance that I'm glad this story gets some eyeballs on it. Maybe it provides an opening or some context so the next person doesn't feel they need to stay passive or to try to shrug it off.

 

[Valnen]

If he's smart he'll resign from a position that he made look foolish, as well as his organization, co-workers, and industry that he made look foolish in the process as well. As if the games press needed more things to make them look bad.

I don't agree with this, but you're free to think that. I don't think a guy should willingly give up his living just because he did something people didn't like.

 

[Principate]

I don't really think anyone outside of people that actually read enthusiast press websites like Kotaku will know about this though, so I don't think this guy's life will be ruined. He'll be embarrassed by this for a few months and then if he's smart he'll learn something from it.

You'd be surprised, gaf is pretty large advertisement.

I wouldn't be surprised if was receiving hate mail this second,

 

[Smellycat]

There are a number of factors:

1. Her complete avoidance of his advances is a form of denial.

2. She didn't want to risk the blow-back that comes from turning down someone who is coming on so strong after showing no interest.

3. She is also dealing with someone in the press, which makes his advances even more inappropriate, and makes the risk of turning him down even greater.

4. It highlights this sort of harassment which is seldom talked about when it comes to the video games industry.

Yeah, these are all very good points. Maybe I just don't understand since I am not a woman and I don't work in the game industry. It is just when I see something like this happen, the first thing that pops in my head is "just tell him to fuck off and finger himself"

 

[Marcel]

I don't agree with this, but you're free to think that.

His employees and organization are tainted with the stink of this controversy. They'll have to address it to their readers to maintain integrity in the face of everything. Do you really think people will still take their website seriously after their founder propositioned vagina kissing to a business acquaintance?

 

[Aquamarine]

You'd be surprised, gaf is pretty large advertisement.

I wouldn't be surprised if was receiving hate mail this second,

It's a shame that this guy's screwup might result in very serious consequences.

There's no excusing what he did. It's just a real shame that he must endure these consequences.

 

[Valnen]

His employees and organization are tainted with the stink of this controversy.

For now, yeah. Also, I find it unfortunate that you'd think his employees deserve punishment for something they had no part in.

 

[OpinionatedCyborg]

The point is, if you're not skilled (or downright atrocious) in those areas of social interaction, as some clearly are, what should the reaction be if you push too far past? Should it be an attempt to educate to someone, or a punitive rebuke? Attempting to delineate by "creepiness" seems fine to many, but that doesn't solve anything for those who genuinely struggle with it. Oni's post I think touches on it well, the difficulty in assessing the severity of such an act and subsequent reaction.

You are going to creepy out or make someone feel uncomfortable at some point. I used to be very easy to get creeped/grossed out, even by well-meaning but clumsy people who didn't immediately pick up on social cues. It's not a big deal. You move on with your life and forget it. If at some point you do something that causes you to step back and reevaluate yourself, you make changes and learn from your mistakes. Try to be forgiving of yourself and other people.

 

[fvng]

This is sad, I like Josh's indie statik youtube channel. Too bad.

 

[Principate]

It's a shame that this guy's screwup might result in very serious consequences.

There's no excusing what he did. It's just a real shame that he must endure these consequences.

It is a shame I just hope he doesn't get any excessive abusive or dangerous stalkers.

 

[Aquamarine]

This is sad, I like Josh's indie statik youtube channel. Too bad.

I know, right? What a horrible way to sully a perfectly fine indie news / community site / YouTube channel.

 

[Aquamarine]

It is a shame I just hope he doesn't get any excessive abusive or dangerous stalkers.

I agree. The Internet has the potential to go too far in reaction to these kinds of things. From the OP, he's going through a lot of tough stuff in his life already.

 

[Marcel]

It is a shame I just hope he doesn't get any excessive abusive or dangerous stalkers.

You don't have to worry mang. I don't think any "social justice zealots" will hound him with wishes for a great Sunday.

 

[Deified Data]

I wouldnt be surprised if some people assumed that what happened here. The fact is that she probably panicked because sexual harassment on a professional environment is something real to her but not to most men and someone out there was going to criticize her reaction and put some of the weight on the blame to her.

I don't know, I feel like if she were concerned about the industry's reaction she wouldn't have shared the chat. I don't think there's anything particularly wrong with outing a colleague as a scumbag if that was her intention.

 

[Doc Holliday]

You are going to creepy out or make someone feel uncomfortable at some point. I used to be very easy to get creeped/grossed out, even by well-meaning but clumsy people who didn't immediately pick up on social cues. It's not a big deal. You move on with your life and forget it. If at some point you do something that causes you to step back and reevaluate yourself, you make changes and learn from your mistakes. Try to be forgiving of yourself and other people.

This is so true especially in this industry composed of introverted man children. You have nerds/geeks who get some success and are now looked up to by fans. Recipe for disaster. I've seen it so many times! Usually you just need some friends to talk to you and help you out.

 

[aly]

It's a shame that this guy's screwup might result in very serious consequences.

There's no excusing what he did. It's just a real shame that he must endure these consequences.

I think I agree with this. I feel terrible for all parties involved in this situation. I feel terrible for the woman, because these situations, especially with someone higher up are always terrible and uncomfortable. The guy was completely in the wrong, but I always feel bad when people face super serious consequences. I hope he can get through whatever he's going through and learn from this situation.

 

[Principate]

You don't have to worry mang. I don't think any "social justice zealots" will hound him with wishes for a great Sunday.

Ironically if this was a woman speaking out about something this may actually not be the case.

Man that seriously depressing.

 

[TheBaronOfNA]

It is a shame I just hope he doesn't get any excessive abusive or dangerous stalkers.

I agree. The Internet has the potential to go too far in reaction to these kinds of things. From the OP, he's going through a lot of tough stuff in his life already.

You two are awesome people. (not sarcasm, just wanted to let it know )

 

[Pelydr]

That twitter feed/chat is just ridiculous. How do you think that is ok? Never heard of IndieStatik, though.

 

[oneils]

Look at all the gentlemen here out for blood. I guess none of you ever got shitfaced and did something you regretted the next day or whenever someone told you about it.
Well, I did. But that's okay because I can safely say that I have never put a private conversation online for people to see, to discredit someone in it, after I ignored anything the other person said that I didn't like and before I gave them a chance to apologize at least. And yes, I know that her friend put it online.

I've done a lot that i am ashamed of, while drunk. But I try not to blame it on the booze. I blame it on me being an asshole.

 

[Valnen]

I've done a lot that i am ashamed of, while drunk. But I try not to blame it on the booze. I blame it on me being an asshole.

Pretty much. If you fucked up and you know it, you say "I fucked up." not "The booze made me fuck up".

 

[Marcel]

For now, yeah. Also, I find it unfortunate that you'd think his employees deserve punishment for something they had no part in.

When did I say they deserved it? They don't. He should resign because he made his employees and organization look bad through his foolish actions.

 

[megamerican]

It's a shame that this guy's screwup might result in very serious consequences.

There's no excusing what he did. It's just a real shame that he must endure these consequences.

To be honest I think the shitstorm would not be nearly as intense had Josh just taken responsibility outright instead of bringing up his dead brother, and also alcohol which is contradicted by the actual conversation. It makes the whole thing seem disingenuous.

 

[Valnen]

When did I say they deserved it? They don't. He should resign because he made his employees and organization look bad through his foolish actions.

How does it make his employees look bad when they had nothing to do with his actions? Also, you realize if he resigns that's punishing his employees by putting them out of a job?

 

[Principate]

Pretty much. If you fucked up and you know it, you say "I fucked up." not "The booze made me fuck up".

No doubt but if you actually have no memory or very vague memory, you can sorta understand.

Of course if you have such problems you should really be controlling your drinking more stringently.

 

[-PXG-]

Here I am thinking, "Oh great. GAF white knights are starting their faux outrage bullshit again. Let me see what's going on..."

I stopped at the "kiss on the vagina" line. Who the fuck says that? Totally creepy. Just no. Come on dude. Mofo sounds like a total shit head.

 

[Fotheringay]

Why won't someone think of the creeps of the world? I think I know why.

The point is being obfuscated this way and by people like Jaffe. This is a situation in which lines were clearly crossed and we don't need to ponder about whether he'd be less up shit creek because some women don't mind this banter! In fact it's an argument I completely loathe to even see trotted out. In this instance the lack of acknowledgment to his advances and trying to keep the conversation professional is completely clear. The lack of telling a peer to "go fuck themselves" is obvious. And yet here we are. The actions by a person completely obfuscated because of some egos and hurt sympathetic feelings to an otherwise creepy jerk who creeped on someone in a vulnerable situation. But clearly she should be much more abrupt in rebuffing his advances because how do social cues work?

The entire point of my post was, the very definition of who is a creep appears to be extremely subjective. The SNL skit "Be Attractive, Don't be Unattractive" shouldn't be the basis for something as serious as sexual harassment in the workplace by a peer. Do I have any sympathy for this guy concerning this situation? Absolutely not, because in my estimation, and more importantly the victim's, this was harassment. As I've posted previously, I don't have any problem with how she handled it, and how due to the professional setting she was in a lose-lose. What I'm trying to reason out, and discuss on this board, is how do we come up with a clearer and less arbitrary set of distinctions for who is sack of shit, and who isn't. There's no attempt by me to obfuscate whether this guy fucked up.

 

[Marcel]

How does it make his employees look bad when they had nothing to do with his actions? Also, you realize if he resigns that's punishing his employees by putting them out of a job?

There's a line of succession for IndieStatik. It's not as if Josh is Atlas holding the company on his shoulders and if he leaves everything falls apart. Like many others, I think you have a thread-reading problem.

 

[Principate]

How does it make his employees look bad when they had nothing to do with his actions? Also, you realize if he resigns that's punishing his employees by putting them out of a job?

The founder of company did something like this. Regardless how you look at it this will have some backlash against the company. He did create it which is likely how the thought processes will go (and that he's still running it). If this was a PLC people would selling shares.

 

[stonesak]

Pretty much. If you fucked up and you know it, you say "I fucked up." not "The booze made me fuck up".

True, but if you do have a problem with drugs/alcohol, to get better you have to own up to that problem. It's an explanation, but not an excuse.

 

[Einbroch]

I rarely cringe, but oh my that was painful to read.

 

[Messofanego]

What should be done about him? What should happen due to his actions?

Topics like this leave me with a very...confused feeling. One that doesn't make me altogether comfortable.

I'm...trying to find what should be done. Should he be shamed, ridiculed and derided forever? Will people make sure that this is something that sticks to him and follows him to his grave? Should it stop him from ever getting another place in the industry? Should any attempts to make himself better be thrown to the side because of the things he has done? Do we want him to come out of this and see his problems and fix them? Or do we not care about him in any way? Is that the way we make this world and the people in it better? By tossing those who have done awful things to the side and let them rot and fester?

I dunno. This gets real heavy for me sometimes as I never know the right way to handle the people at fault. I just don't think treating them like human garbage is going to teach them anything, help them see their mistakes and make honest amends for them or better themselves as people. Will this make them stop others when they see the same thing repeat itself? Will they teach their kids these new values that they learned from making this mistake and thus enrich the world later by raising children who will not make the same awful mistakes he made? Or is it going to make things worse, is he going to get defensive and internalize all his hate so that he treats people worse and drags the people around him down as well? Will he raise his children and tell them to watch out for "social warriors" and take them down the same path he took but make it more insidious and ingrained in them? I don't know.

This is some real hard shit. I don't think people are binary 1-0, on or off on whether or not they're a good or bad person. I think good people can do some shitty stuff sometimes by mistake or ignorance. I think bad people can have some fleeting moments of altruism or niceness even if by accident. And I don't think an example of either is enough to determine who someone is as a person. We're more complicated than that. We're people, at the end of the day.

I try to stay out of topics like this. I feel it's not really my place as it is not something I'm either familiar with (not being a woman or someone who has been harassed) and not being a subject I have studied extensively. I defer to those with more relevant or educated opinions on the matter and still keep abreast of these threads and read the posts so I can be aware of the situation and people's arguments during it.

I just see so much vitriol it's hard for me to think that's a way that is ever going to end all these hateful acts that people do. I don't think throwing hate at hate resolves anything or makes the world overall better.

Sorry for rambling a bit.

I totally feel you. As part of a pervasive punishment > rehabilitation thinking that's quite heavily linked with prison culture (Zimbardo wrote a good paper on the death of rehab, and this was back in 1998), it's pretty easy to jump the gun these days. What would have been ideal is Josh Mattingly confessed by himself when he must have seen the tweets going around, rather than the other party spilling the evidence. Josh is aware of what he did wrong, and is seeking treatment. He should apologise to the developer face-to-face (skype even), but then it's not clear whether she divulged the identity or the overseer who knew and gave it out.

His apology doesn't seem to hide malicious intent, so maybe this was a genuine rare mistake in his life, although that dating show he was on a year ago didn't do any favours. I hope he learns from the mistake that saying those kind of things, even under the influence or when depressed, is a bad thing and doesn't make future blunders especially in a public space where context is hard to grasp.

 

[AyaisMUsikWhore]

When when being thirsty goes wrong.

Literally the thread.

I know in the back of her mind, she can feel the dehydration coming out of his dry ass hands on his dusty keyboard. She was trying to be nice but she knew he was tripping and bailed.

 

[Tripon]

That twitter feed/chat is just ridiculous. How do you think that is ok? Never heard of IndieStatik, though.

IndieStatik broke the news about Penny Arcade's Diversity Lounges, IIRC.

 

[enzo_gt]

It was all fine then the phone number comment came up and my face dropped.

The fuck....

Seriously. What the fuck, who does that?

 

[JesseEwiak]

The entire point of my post was, the very definition of who is a creep appears to be extremely subjective.

Except not really. Personal ancedote time. I was recently at a Christmas potluck gettogether with some friends and friend of friends. One guy, a friend of the girls was being really creepy. Constantly touching the girls, moving up one of the girls skirt "too see her scar", trying to make out with one girl, and randomly taking off his belt and pants. Along with other stuff.

Everybody thought it was creepy, but to not bring the Christmas spirit down, we all kind of ignored it. But, the rest of us guys also made sure that he left before leaving ourselves. Here's the extra bonus part, of the let's say, six guys there, he was the most attractive. Best build, nicest hair, so on, and so forth. But, the host (a girl) still asked us less attractive guys to stay behind until he left.

It's not all about attractive or non-attractive. Shockingly, girls don't like creepy, even from good looking guys.

 

[freenudemacusers]

Seriously. What the fuck, who does that?

how else will women know that creeps could send them text messages if I don't call them or send them creepy text messages?

edit: well, she does say "if you want a specific answer, ask a specific question". Maybe he just took that too literally.

 

[Principate]

Seriously. What the fuck, who does that?

That was just messed but lets hope he learns from this experience and becomes a better person (and doesn't get excessive hate/crap from this whole experience).

how else will women know that creeps could send them text messages if I don't call them or send them creepy text messages?

I'm dying here...

 

[ElectricKaibutsu]

That apology was as good as it could have been. People would find fault with it no matter what. But this is the internet so never forgive, never forget, right?

Not that I'm about to start reading his site or anything...

 

[MikeOfTheLivingDead]

I don't really think anyone outside of people that actually read enthusiast press websites like Kotaku will know about this though, so I don't think this guy's life will be ruined. He'll be embarrassed by this for a few months and then if he's smart he'll learn something from it.

Increasingly during background checks companies are researching people online. It's quite likely this will follow him and have negative fallout on his life for quite some time.

Honestly, I think Jason Schrier is an awful person for going after this guy. No matter how righteous he thinks his cause, he's using his position on a popular website to be a bully, and it's not the first time. No one deserves this for some lewd behavior. It really irritates me to see these type of e-lynchings. One of these days he'll go after the wrong person and try to break their ricebowl for clicks, and those clicks will have a very steep price.

Fuck the whole lot. Gaming journalism would be better off without most of these journalists.

 

[docbon]

Increasingly during background checks companies are researching people online. It's quite likely this will follow him and have negative fallout on his life for quite some time.

Honestly, I think Jason Schrier is an awful person for going after this guy. No matter how righteous he thinks his cause, he's using his position on a popular website to be a bully, and it's not the first time. No one deserves this for some lewd behavior. It really irritates me to see these type of e-lynchings. One of these days he'll go after the wrong person and try to break their ricebowl for clicks, and those clicks will have a very steep price.

Fuck the whole lot. Gaming journalism would be better off without most of these journalists.

It's okay though, Josh didn't tell kotaku to stop the article.

 

[Valnen]

Increasingly during background checks companies are researching people online. It's quite likely this will follow him and have negative fallout on his life for quite some time.

He runs his website so employment won't be a problem unless he stops making money off his site, which I don't really see happening long term.

It's okay though, Josh didn't tell kotaku to stop the article.

 

[Marcel]

Increasingly during background checks companies are researching people online. It's quite likely this will follow him and have negative fallout on his life for quite some time.

Hiring managers should be able to know if the person they're potentially hiring has a history of, say, alcoholism or sexual harassment. Maybe Josh should have thought about if his gross PUA bullshit would catch up with him one day, especially in a professional setting.

 

[APF]

What I'm trying to reason out, and discuss on this board, is how do we come up with a clearer and less arbitrary set of distinctions for who is sack of shit, and who isn't.

You can start by not persisting in your attempts to flirt with someone who isn't reciprocating, and by not immediately jumping to discussing kissing vaginas when someone does not directly rebuke you.