Unbound By Death
Member
Cringy awkwardness all over my body......
She handled it pretty well I must say.
She handled it pretty well I must say.
IndieStatik Founder apologizes for "inappropriate" comments to female game dev
- Thread starter benny_a
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You've never been in that position, you have no idea what it's like and what can happen when we do speak out so stop telling us what we should or shouldn't do. It's not always easy.
I don't think anyone's arguing for this guy to be arrested so I don't know how the legal definition of harassment fits here. If she says she felt harassed, that's ultimately what's important here.
It's obvious that my opinion is not the end all be all, so I'm not looking to argue that. But having a daughter and two sisters, there's a lot of both sides I see on a regular basis that I have learned from.
And again, maybe I should have prefaced internet/opinion, but just my point-of-view that men get away with saying too much creepy stuff. My wife is pretty awesome at that stuff...I've seen the creepy facebook messages come her way as well as her replies. So, it was just odd to not see any sort of retaliation.
LOL, good catch, I totally forgot that divorce line when I got to those weird advances
NoirVisage
Banned
Agreed, he's not absolving the behavior, I think he has a problem with allowing it to go on as long as it did..its fair to ask.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Did you seriously write this in earnest?
Wow, what an asshole. Like it just kept getting worse even though she gave him so many opportunities out.
Funny enough Leigh would know something about that. Can't believe she took this opportunity to draw attention to herself.
Funny enough Leigh would know something about that. Can't believe she took this opportunity to draw attention to herself.
Again you're not taking the harassed persons feelings into account. It doesn't matter how you would prefer women deal with harassment all that matters is that women shouldn't feel pressured away from exposing it publicly or privately. He's the one responsible for his comments and the consequences that may stem from them and no one else.
Because those were the words used by kotaku and I didn't want to color the thread with my interpretation of what his comments were.
Devolution
Member
Schobeleth
Member
I really just can't believe how ridiculous this whole thing is - his advancement to the dev, and all of the guys on twitter saying "WELP SHE NEVER SAID STOP" .... just sickening.
I had a question in regards to the uncensored version of the convo - where did it come from? I'm updating a piece for this whole debacle on my site, and I want to give proper reference.
I had a question in regards to the uncensored version of the convo - where did it come from? I'm updating a piece for this whole debacle on my site, and I want to give proper reference.
Why are you telling other people what they should and should not be offended by or harassed by?
The victim isn't the one who posted these, it was a friend of hers. Sorry if that doesn't fit your preferred narrative.
No pretend narrative here; as I said, I'm not caught up on the story. I read the apology and the texts and assumed the woman being harassed brought it to the public, not her friend. I was wrong.
Women have a powerful voice, speak up! ...But not publicly, there are men you might embarrass and you need to be sensitive to their delicate feelings.
The victim isn't the one who posted these, it was a friend of hers. Sorry if that doesn't fit your preferred narrative.
And this friend posted it to the public with her permission?
freenudemacusers
Member
I don't think you understand the perspective here. my wife, for example, had a supervisor with whom she is locked in a small room (behind 2 feet of concrete) with for 48 hours as a part of her job strip down to his boxers and watch cinemax 'porn', while asking her if she liked the scenes and thought the women were 'beautiful'. What is she supposed to do? tell him to stuff it and stop being a disgusting creep? or just ignore it and get the work done? Guess what she did? And I don't blame her.
Obviously facebook texts are not nearly as an immediate of an issue, but what should she do? Tell this guy to go fuck himself and possibly get a rep as a 'stuck up bitch' in this guy's circle of influence? Now you can say that's purely theoretical and the guy might just casually accept her rejection and revert back to being a non-creepy loser, but considering his total lack of professionalism and ability to recognize boundaries or 'get the hint', it's not a stretch from her perspective why this happens. And why a lot of sexual harassment happens in the workplace.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Oh, okay. You're able to talk about women's issues because you're a father of them. Got it.
groovygamer
Banned
You're all missing the point here. This is not about the victim, this is about Leigh Alexander. Let's not lose focus.
See my other reply above, I was under the impression that they know each other quite well. If they don't then that explains a lot and makes some of my previous comments irrelevant. And yeah I know, her friend put it online. Still not cool.
I already answered this.
girl... you couldnt change the color of this thread with a fat red sharpie
HamPster PamPster
Member
The sad part is if she had just said "please stop, this is harassment" (like Jaffe and others suggests) after the first tasteless message there would be a ton of people calling her a bitch and saying it was harmless drunk flirting and why does she need to ruin an innocent man's career by accusing him, etc... Just look at how offended people in the OT get if a women puts her hand on her cup or never returns a call. Now imagine accusing them of harassment, good lord. Of course that's assuming it ever went public. More likely IndieStatik would have just ignored her game and Josh would have told others to do the same
There is no way for her to win
Also, its interesting that he post the apology on his (hardly used) tumblr and not the site considering he was representing the site at the time. Clearly trying to sweep this under the rug and avoid stepping down
There is no way for her to win
Also, its interesting that he post the apology on his (hardly used) tumblr and not the site considering he was representing the site at the time. Clearly trying to sweep this under the rug and avoid stepping down
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Doc Holliday
SPOILER: Columbus finds America
As much as think what the guy did was dumb and creepy I feel really uncomfortable with the lynch mob mentality on the web. For every guy who is guilty of real fucked up shit there is another who is innocent or just goofed up the way people do.
We don't even wait for the facts and ruin people's lives for a long time. This guy will trouble finding work in his field for the foreseeable future. I just hope we exercise constraint even when the person in question didn't.
We don't even wait for the facts and ruin people's lives for a long time. This guy will trouble finding work in his field for the foreseeable future. I just hope we exercise constraint even when the person in question didn't.
Fotheringay
Member
TheBaronOfNA
Banned
10/10 I would read again.
weevles
Member
NoirVisage
Banned
I don't think its her never saying stop, but calling him out for what he was doing.
My guess is they were "friends" and this was a private conversation between them, one like she's had to put up with before, and probably as usual that she had enough of so she stopped responding. Probably would have never seen the light of day had someone not posted it.
People were discussing whether this was sexual harassment or not which - correct me if I'm wrong - is a criminal offence. So that's where the legal definition came into play.
And if she felt harassed she should've explicitly said so. I'm not saying it's her fault but she should've still been able to tell the guy off if she felt uncomfortably. And if she felt like she couldn't because the guy might've written something unfavourable about her work, then that's the real issue here IMO. It's not the nature of the comments but rather that there is an environment where people feel like they can't even politely tell someone that they're uncomfortable with that person's sexual advances. People should be able to say that sort of thing without the other person feeling offended and without having to fear any negative repercussions for their career.
XANDER CAGE
Member
freenudemacusers
Member
well you seemed unable to understand why a woman in this position would not directly rebuff these loser/creepy advances and instead would just ignore or laugh it off, so I felt it needed an explanation.
ohgodwhyKeep reading
Circle Jerk
Member
People know exactly what you're saying, you're just wrong. It's not that hard to figure that out.
Big Baybee
Member
Keep reading
Come on cuz
Commanche Raisin Toast
Member
This. Basically.
I don't think people here seem to understand exactly what alcohol does to people. "He didn't get the hint so it's his fault not the alcohol" is basically what I'm hearing, but alcohol makes you blind to that shit.
He apologized and took responsibility in the letter, and gave a reasonable source to his behavior. That's more than the blame-dodging that goes on 90% of the time there are incidents like these and for far worse things.
Dude is going to get help and he apologized. Let it go.
How else do you feel victims should act?
Devolution
Member
Keep reading
Like I said earlier. Total lack of socialization and understanding social cues.
Aquamarine
Member
Keep reading
Jaffe keeps digging his own grave.
Circle Jerk
Member
Jaffe needs his own thread for this shit. Seriously, what a broken mind that man must have that he's sticking so heavily to his guns on this topic.Keep reading
That was the point I wanted to make, but you put it better. We dont know all facts, but a lot of people instantly jump to conclusions. FYI the whitests of white knights could be the biggest creeps out there.
groovygamer
Banned
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Has anyone checked Jaffe's credit card statements, to see if he's purchased an abnormal amount of lotions and baskets recently?
Keep reading
this fucking idiot
does he post here
i hope you see this
youre a fucking idiot
Principate
Saint Titanfall
Some employees check your god damn face book. and any social media, He ruined his career by himself no help need.
I'd have no issue with giving him a second chance but let's be honest here, this is text book sexual harassment, internet or not the consequences would be similar.
Riposte
Member
Lamest thing I've read since the shit posted in the OP.
I get the feeling this thread is going to dominated by an argument where one side feels provoked by no one admitting to the ambiguity of flirting and the other annoyed the other thinks it is the receiver's responsibility to stop said flirting/harassment. The latter has the stronger position because the guy specifically in this case doesn't have much of a leg to stand on: it was completely one-sided and in a professional context (though I would argue not necessarily one that played on power roles). His apology also makes him look like a douche in that "I'm so humble, thus in a position of weakness, that I'm not" kind of way.
EDIT: Oof, let's hope Jaffe isn't talking about sex.
EdibleKnife
Member
I don't know why people are going with the "She didn't say stop" angle.
Some people are ready and willing to say "FU Bastard!!" to end a situation they feel uncomfortable with. Some people aren't. Some can still be just as uncomfortable and choose to deal with the situation until it passes not wanting to make any waves or rile anyone up more than they are already. It seems to me like this is the road the female game dev went with.
Some people are ready and willing to say "FU Bastard!!" to end a situation they feel uncomfortable with. Some people aren't. Some can still be just as uncomfortable and choose to deal with the situation until it passes not wanting to make any waves or rile anyone up more than they are already. It seems to me like this is the road the female game dev went with.
I'm sure you mean well but it just isn't as simple as you think especially when you're not the confrontational type and especially when someone senior to you is involved. The responsibility isn't on the woman to speak up, it's on the man to not be a creepy douche.
Ravensmash
Member
Keep reading
The conversation LOOKED awkward, it was clear that she wasn't reciprocating.
That being said, I hope this thread doesnt end up revolving around stupid tweets now.
I'm not telling anyone that. I'm saying that we need to draw a line somewhere. There's 7 billion people on this planet. Every trivial little thing is going to offend at least one of those so you cannot simply put everything everyone finds offensive on a list and say nobody's allowed to do any of those things. A society has to come to some sort of agreement as to what can be considered harassment and what can't be. Now, once a person tells someone else that they find something offensive and that person still does it, that's a different matter, of course. But that's not the case here which I've already adressed in my post above.
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