• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Innocent Women Killed by Policeman's 'Non-Lethal' Weapon

Status
Not open for further replies.

xexex

Banned
BX10210221545.jpeg



http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3659744

Red Sox Fan Killed by Policeman's 'Non-Lethal' Weapon

PA News | October 22 2004

A student celebrating the Boston Red Sox’s dramatic baseball victory over the New York Yankees was killed after a policeman on crowd control shot her in the eye with what was designed to be a non-lethal weapon.

Fifteen other people, including a policeman, suffered minor injuries in Boston’s Kenmore Square after thousands of fans spilled onto the streets to celebrate after the win in New York.

Boston’s mayor said he was considering banning alcohol sales in the city during the World Series baseball finals to avoid a repeat of the rowdiness.

Victoria Snelgrove, a 21-year-old journalism student, was hit by a projectile fired by an officer on crowd-control duty.

Police Commissioner Kathleen O’Toole said officers were using projectiles “designed to break upon impact, dousing the target with (pepper-like) spray.”

She said: “While I firmly and emphatically accept responsibilities for any errors, I also condemn in the harshest words possible the actions of the punks who turned our city’s victory into an opportunity for violence and mindless destruction.”

Rick Snelgrove said his daughter did nothing wrong.

“What happened to her should not happen to any American citizen going to any type of game, no matter what,” he said. “She loved the Red Sox. She went in to celebrate with friends. She was a bystander. She was out of the way, but she still got shot. Awful things happen to good people. My daughter was an exceptional person.”

Mayor Thomas Menino said he was considering prohibiting alcohol sales and asking bar and restaurant operators to ban live television coverage during games to curb the rowdiness.


well we all know that a large number of police are out and out PIGS, but this outrage goes WAY beyond that. the police responsible for this are slimey little c__ts and deserve to air dropped into siberia, naked. bastards :(
 
"She said: “While I firmly and emphatically accept responsibilities for any errors, I also condemn in the harshest words possible the actions of the punks who turned our city’s victory into an opportunity for violence and mindless destruction.”

This disgusts me. They kill someone, and it's spun to be the "punks" fault? And her death is called an "error"?

He shot her IN THE EYE. Police can't be that careless, regardless if they are doing crowd control or not.
 
xexex said:
well we all know that a large number of police are out and out PIGS, but this outrage goes WAY beyond that. the police responsible for this are slimey little c__ts and deserve to air dropped into siberia, naked. bastards :(
Ah, to someday hold the rewarding job of public servant.
rolleyes.gif
 
Yes, your attitude towards men and women who uphold the law and serve the public trust in return for little benefit and severe ingratitude and scorn is truly disgusting.
 

Claus

Banned
I think when you get shot in the eye with something traveling at a high velocity, non-lethal or not, it's going to kill you. That said it isn't like he purposely shot her in the eye.
 

Cimarron

Member
"Mayor Thomas Menino said he was considering prohibiting alcohol sales and asking bar and restaurant operators to ban live television coverage during games to curb the rowdiness."

Hold on Menino! I'm going to be quite ticked if I can't go clubbing and get a drink because of this unfortunate mishap. And relax people I don't like Boston pigs one bit. (Thank the whole Charles Stuart incident a couple years back.) But in thier defense i highly doubt that the fuzz deliberately going around trying to shoot folks in the EYE! It was an accident. I feel bad for the family. =(
 

tedtropy

$50/hour, but no kissing on the lips and colors must be pre-separated
xexex said:
BX10210221545.jpeg



http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3659744




well we all know that a large number of police are out and out PIGS, but this outrage goes WAY beyond that. the police responsible for this are slimey little c__ts and deserve to air dropped into siberia, naked. bastards :(

Yeah, there's idiots and assholes in every career, and I've no doubt those responsible will be punished and fired, but to say that a large number of police are "pigs" is, in a word, moronic. My father recently retired from his career in law enforcement, so perhaps I have a little bias, but I think you need to educate yourself on the difficulty of being a public servant who, in present day, gets ZERO benefit of the doubt and is liable for his most minute action. Naturally the media would contort things such that we only see the bad things law enforcement does, but let's see how well you'd sleep in a world without police. Does this excuse what happened here? Nope. But does what happened here justify some stupid blanket statement like yours? Nope.
 

Phoenix

Member
The question is always intent and circumstance. I think everyone is jumping to a whole lot of conclusions with not enough evidence about what happened. One generally can't AIM at an eye, so the location of the shot seems to be quite accidental. So intent is in question. Consequence is currently a large unknown - we don't really know why the officer chose to fire the weapon in the first place.

While the officer could be entirely wrong or the victim could be entirely wrong, more than likely this an unfortunate accident. Non-lethal weapons CAN kill, they do so from time to time. They are called non-lethal because they are not DESIGNED to kill, not because they can't.
 

Santo

Junior Member
This is truly terrible news but I'm surprised nobody mentioned JOHN TITOR yet. I mean, didn't he say civil uprising at end of 2004?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
 

duderon

rollin' in the gutter
Santo said:
This is truly terrible news but I'm surprised nobody mentioned JOHN TITOR yet. I mean, didn't he say civil uprising at end of 2004?

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.

I was just going to quote the man from the future. IT HAS BEGUN.
 

unkasa

Banned
She shouldn't have been out there. Don't hold the police accountable for her stupidity. Drunk revellers felt the Sox' improbable victory granted them license to lay waste to the city. She should have excused herself and made her way home. Instead, she participated in a riot, leading to her death. I have zero sympathy for her.
 

Zaptruder

Banned
unkasa said:
She shouldn't have been out there. Don't hold the police accountable for her stupidity. Drunk revellers felt the Sox' improbable victory granted them license to lay waste to the city. She should have excused herself and made her way home. Instead, she participated in a riot, leading to her death. I have zero sympathy for her.

That's ok. People will have zero sympathy for you when someone drives through your fucking house and over you. You knew you were in a poor socio-economic zone that was prone to that kind of accident anyhow.
 
xexex said:
BX10210221545.jpeg



http://news.scotsman.com/latest.cfm?id=3659744




well we all know that a large number of police are out and out PIGS, but this outrage goes WAY beyond that. the police responsible for this are slimey little c__ts and deserve to air dropped into siberia, naked. bastards :(

If a bunch of drunk punk ass sports fans were about to go "riot" around my business, home, or vehicle I'd be out there with a gun, not pepper spray.

I applaud the boston police for defending citizen property against mobs of jackass's. It's a shame that the girl died though.
 

Takuan

Member
If she was hit by stray fire, it was an accident. A horrible one, but still an accident. I don't think the officer literally ran up to her and unloaded a clip into her eye. Blame the crowd, not the officer.
 

Ristamar

Member
I'd have to agree with Pheonix, and it's a shame it happened. It's also a shame people have to be total fucking morons after a sporting event, which inevitably leads to this kind of crap. Idiots.
 

Takuan

Member
Yeah, it's fucking ridiculous, even more so when it happens after their team WINS. I remember a while back when UConn won the NCAA championship their students went crazy and overturned cars and stuff. Idiots.
 

unkasa

Banned
Zaptruder said:
That's ok. People will have zero sympathy for you when someone drives through your fucking house and over you. You knew you were in a poor socio-economic zone that was prone to that kind of accident anyhow.

She shouldn't be held accountable for her actions? Whether she actually participated in the commission of a crime or not, she, at the very least, chose to accompany those who did. The result, unfortunately, was her death. What were the police to do? How else were they to quell the violence? Ask them nicely?
 

ohamsie

Member
I really want to make a reference to a Clone High joke where there was a mob after a sporting event, but I think it would be too obscure, and in poor taste because of the woman's death.

So I will just say this seems to be an unfortunate accident, the people in the mob should not have been rioting, and the police officer shouldn't be aiming so high, they should aim more towards the torso, but I don't think he was aiming high on purpose.
 

Nerevar

they call me "Man Gravy".
A lot of idiots in this thread who are way too quick to condemn both the girl (she shouldn't have been out drinking and being in a riot!) or the police (damn pigs stop killing people!).

The facts are: she was in a very tranquil area. No rioting, no fires, nothing. Cops were in the area. Some jackass standing somewhere near her (but by no means next to her) threw a bottle at the cop. Cop turns around, doesn't know who threw the bottle, so he started firing indiscriminately into the general vicinity of where the bottle was thrown. Woman, innocent bystander, gets hit in the eye and dies. You be the judge of who's at fault here.

unkasa said:
She shouldn't be held accountable for her actions? Whether she actually participated in the commission of a crime or not, she, at the very least, chose to accompany those who did. The result, unfortunately, was her death. What were the police to do? How else were they to quell the violence? Ask them nicely?

I hope, if you ever die in a horrible accident, people are so quick to judge your actions and dismiss your death as your own damn fault as you are.
 

Takuan

Member
Nerevar said:
A lot of idiots in this thread who are way too quick to condemn both the girl (she shouldn't have been out drinking and being in a riot!) or the police (damn pigs stop killing people!).

The facts are: she was in a very tranquil area. No rioting, no fires, nothing. Cops were in the area. Some jackass standing somewhere near her (but by no means next to her) threw a bottle at the cop. Cop turns around, doesn't know who threw the bottle, so he started firing indiscriminately into the general vicinity of where the bottle was thrown. Woman, innocent bystander, gets hit in the eye and dies. You be the judge of who's at fault here.



I hope, if you ever die in a horrible accident, people are so quick to judge your actions and dismiss your death as your own damn fault as you are.

If that's how it went down, the blame lies on the fuckhead who tossed the bottle and the officer for his carelessness. Moreso on the bottle-thrower, imo. None of this is the victim's fault, she couldn't have predicted this happening.
 

ShadowRed

Banned
Takuan said:
If that's how it went down, the blame lies on the fuckhead who tossed the bottle and the officer for his carelessness. Moreso on the bottle-thrower, imo. None of this is the victim's fault, she couldn't have predicted this happening.




You gotta be fucking shitting me!!!!! One asshat in a peaceful crowd throws one bottle and the cops are justified in spraying an entire crowd with bullets, rubber or otherwise. Get the fuck out of here and on top of it the chick who was minding her own business is at fault. *shakes had in disgust* Hell I was walking out of a Best Buy once when a bunch of dudes grabbed a bunch of shit and ran out. Had the security oppened fire on them and shot me would it have been my fault. Perhaps I should have went to Circuit City.
 
unkasa said:
She shouldn't be held accountable for her actions? Whether she actually participated in the commission of a crime or not, she, at the very least, chose to accompany those who did. The result, unfortunately, was her death. What were the police to do? How else were they to quell the violence? Ask them nicely?

Dick.
 

karasu

Member
The facts are: she was in a very tranquil area. No rioting, no fires, nothing. Cops were in the area. Some jackass standing somewhere near her (but by no means next to her) threw a bottle at the cop. Cop turns around, doesn't know who threw the bottle, so he started firing indiscriminately into the general vicinity of where the bottle was thrown. Woman, innocent bystander, gets hit in the eye and dies. You be the judge of who's at fault here.

Wait, where did you get all of that?
 

xexex

Banned
You gotta be fucking shitting me!!!!! One asshat in a peaceful crowd throws one bottle and the cops are justified in spraying an entire crowd with bullets, rubber or otherwise. Get the fuck out of here and on top of it the chick who was minding her own business is at fault. *shakes had in disgust*

IAWTP

She shouldn't be held accountable for her actions? Whether she actually participated in the commission of a crime or not, she, at the very least, chose to accompany those who did. The result, unfortunately, was her death. What were the police to do? How else were they to quell the violence? Ask them nicely?

go away.
 

Dujour

Banned
So the pepper-spray-ball went in her eye and burned what was in there? How did she die? Also, I'm glad the Mets haven't won a world series in 86.
 

Takuan

Member
ShadowRed said:
You gotta be fucking shitting me!!!!! One asshat in a peaceful crowd throws one bottle and the cops are justified in spraying an entire crowd with bullets, rubber or otherwise. Get the fuck out of here and on top of it the chick who was minding her own business is at fault. *shakes had in disgust* Hell I was walking out of a Best Buy once when a bunch of dudes grabbed a bunch of shit and ran out. Had the security oppened fire on them and shot me would it have been my fault. Perhaps I should have went to Circuit City.

readingcomprehension2.gif


Serafitia said:
So the pepper-spray-ball went in her eye and burned what was in there? How did she die? Also, I'm glad the Mets haven't won a world series in 86.
I'm guessing the force behind the pellet was strong enough to penetrate her eye and enter her brain. Really, really unfortunate. Things like this should never happen.
 

DJ_Tet

Banned
unkasa said:
She shouldn't be held accountable for her actions? Whether she actually participated in the commission of a crime or not, she, at the very least, chose to accompany those who did. The result, unfortunately, was her death. What were the police to do? How else were they to quell the violence? Ask them nicely?



I know you are a joke character, but I'll humor you. One is NOT responsible for what their friends/aqcuaintences/ people do. I've had moments where I go out into town with drunk "friends." When they start rioting, I leave. If I get hit with a stray beanbag, I don't deserve to die, and I hope my parents eat your parents for breakfast, fucking asshole.

I don't know what law or rule you think applies that makes a person responsible for their friends.

This is a tragedy on the highest level.
 

Kon Tiki

Banned
It is sad that she died and not this mentality:
“What happened to her should not happen to any American citizen going to any type of game, no matter what,”

I am so sick of hearing that BS about American lives being more important than another human.
 

fart

Savant
seriously, the jingoism here is reaching a fever pitch. the kids are frothing at the mouth. the poor girl didn't deserve to die (as much as anyone deserves to; note to idiots: this means that no one deserves to die), regardless of her actions, inactions, or citizenship.
 

Shinobi

Member
unkasa said:
She shouldn't have been out there. Don't hold the police accountable for her stupidity. Drunk revellers felt the Sox' improbable victory granted them license to lay waste to the city. She should have excused herself and made her way home. Instead, she participated in a riot, leading to her death. I have zero sympathy for her.

How do you know she wasn't making her way home you cunt rag?

There had to be a better way than this. Fire some warning shots into the sky. Though I suppose the bullet could fall back down to earth and hit someone in the eye. Eh, I don't know...if she was someone I knew, I'd be out for blood. To the credit of the Boston police force, at least they accepted responsibility almost immediately...too many other forces would've done anything but. But if Neverer's account is accurate, I put the blame for the girl's death squarely on the officier. You can't assume that you know where an attack came from where there are several people in the area. Unfair? Might be. But if you can't handle it, put the badge down and drive a bus.

This sort of shit BTW, is why I've always disliked alcohol, and see it as a FAR bigger problem then cigarettes. Why today's society is so hung up on turning smoking into the most anti-social activity on the planet while getting smashed is basically lauded as some sort of status of cool in the media is beyond me.

Having said that, I don't see why the bars should have to pay for this...those employees have a right to make a living. So unless they're going to be compensated by the city, I say let 'em sell the drinks while ramping up the police presence (something that I believe happened outside Wrigley Field during games six and seven of the NLCS last year).




Society said:
It is sad that she died and not this mentality:


I am so sick of hearing that BS about American lives being more important than another human.

That was the first thing I thought when I heard that...then Americans wonder why they're hated on.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Society said:
It is sad that she died and not this mentality:


I am so sick of hearing that BS about American lives being more important than another human.

Err, I didn't see the original quote, but based on that one line, don't you think you're overreacting a bit? Mentioning "American citizens" could just as easily have meant that, due to the protections afforded American citizens by the law of their land, something like this should not happen to any American citizen. If it were a citizen of, say, some other country where excessive police force was tacitly condoned or legal where large groups are concerned (these places do exist), then you can't really say that something like this "shouldn't" happen (see note below).


Note: I don't believe that "shouldn't" is being used in the normative sense in either of these cases, and that's what I think you're getting hung up on (i.e., "it ought not have happened", in the moral sense). I believe it's being used more in the sense of definition 4 (from Merriam-Webster), seen here:


4) used in auxiliary function to express what is probable or expected <with an early start, they should be here by noon>


Hence, something like this should not (as in, it is not probable or expected based on the law of the land and police protocols) happen to any American citizen. You cannot say that with the same certainty if the person is a citizen of another country where such heavy-handed tactics are either tacitly condoned or explicitly part of legal protocol for dealing with large groups.


Now, if the person did mean to express such a jingoistic sentiment, as you guys are noting, and was using "should" in the normative, ethical sense, then yes, that is a disgusting and indefensible sentiment. But honestly, when I read that statement for the first time in that quote, I didn't read it the same way that you guys did, and I tend to trust my own reading comprehension :p -- so I figured I'd lay out why I didn't believe that it necessarily meant what you guys were taking it to mean. It needs clarification, at the least, unless the original quote contained the clarifying context or other cues as to the author's intent. :)


EDIT: Just read the original comment in the first posted article, and I feel that it backs up my interpretation-- at the very least, it's not clearly a case of nationalistic feelings of entitlement (i.e., that Americans inherently deserve better treatment than citizens of other nations solely due to their status as American citizens). I'm really surprised that you guys read it that way; I honestly didn't. Who knows... :)
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Society said:
Would it be easier to understand if she said 'This should not happen to white people'? Same kind of ignorance.


There's nothing to understand; my comprehension is fine. I just felt that the comment you took issue with did not necessarily have to be interpreted in the manner it was, and I explained why I felt that way.


And no, saying "this should not happen to white people" is in no way an equivalent statement, because whites are not afforded any special protections under the law in the US, and so my alternative explanation of the comment, as seen above, would not be applicable. Had he said "this should not happen to whites", well, there's only one way you can interpret that-- not so with the statement that "this should not happen to any American citizen", which can also be interpreted in the manner I did in my prior post (which also seems the more reasonable interpretation based on the context).


I just felt that you were overreacting a bit to the comment, which most likely meant something akin to my previous interpretation of it and not your interpretation of it. My main point was that when I read the statement, I didn't interpret it in the manner you did (i.e., as a flagrantly nationalistic comment), but rather in the manner that I explained in my previous post; because of this-- and because I sorta have a decent reading comprehension-- I felt that I should explain why I interpreted it in the manner I did, which I feel is entirely logical and consistent with the context. Had the person making the comment made some other racist/nationalistic remark, then that would color my interpretation of it-- but he didn't. In light of that, the explanation I posited above is, I feel, the best one for the comment.


To jump to a conclusion such as you did betrays some sort of bias, imo, though you may not want to hear that. I am not saying that such irrational nationalistic feelings do not exist in America today, because they certainly do-- and to far too great an extent imo. I'm just saying that this particular comment is not an instance of such jingoistic fervor. Understand?


I mean, did you even try to understand what I was saying, or were you just convinced (on spurious evidence, mind you) that this was some insane nationalistic commentary and thus barely gave my interpretation any thought whatsoever? Because I honestly don't see how you can't come to the same conclusion I did unless A) you have a bias (well-founded or not; like I said, there's a lot of irrational nationalism floating around the US presently-- but that doesn't make this an instance of it necessarily), or B) there were other mitigating comments/cues that led you to believe that he meant what he said in the manner you believed him to. :)


In short, I stand by my interpretation of what was said, your hypothetical "this shouldn't happen to whites" comment (which is entirely different, as noted) notwithstanding. :)
 

DarthWoo

I'm glad Grandpa porked a Chinese Muslim
Loki said:
??? :lol

Wtf?

I hope you guys are referring to "unkasa", whom I pegged as Futami about 3 days ago. :p


I actually thought the same thing about unkasa after his first post in this thread.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Society said:
I am not gonna read that, but I think you get my point.

But the problem is that your "point" is entirely wrong; if you'd like to find out why you're mistaken, you're free to read my posts. If you don't care to, then that's your right-- but please don't think that you're correct in this instance, because that's just not true.


I was trying to be polite, but when somebody tells me that they're "not going to read" my posts, then that sort of precludes them from making a point that contradicts what is contained in my post, don't you think? If you can argue against the points I made, then fine, do so; if not, then you have no basis for continuing to believe something that was shown to be (most likely) in error.


Again, I do not believe that you had any basis whatsoever for construing the original comment to mean that he felt that American lives were, simply by virtue of being American, more "worthy" or "deserving" than citizens of other nations are.
 

cvxfreak

Member
Damn, I feel sorry for the girl and her family. What a waste of a life, and the dreams of a woman who will never get to achieve what she always wanted to do (unless she already has). :(
 

FightyF

Banned
Society, I think the dad was referring to the fact that in the US, police brutality during riots, that would result in death, should not be an issue as it is in other countries.

Shooting something (whether it's rubber bullets, pelts, or rubber tipped bullets) indiscriminately at a crowd is a horrible tactic.
 

Loki

Count of Concision
Fight for Freeform said:
Society, I think the dad was referring to the fact that in the US, police brutality during riots, that would result in death, should not be an issue as it is in other countries.

Exactly.


Btw, is the board loading up VERY slow for anybody else? It keeps hanging for me when the page is loaded but before it shows up on screen for literally a few minutes (I'm on dialup). Sucks. :p
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom