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[HAOHMARU]

All because of a baseball game...

 

[xexex]

Damn, I feel sorry for the girl and her family. What a waste of a life, and the dreams of a woman who will never get to achieve what she always wanted to do (unless she already has).

I feel pretty much the same about this, although I'm alot more outraged I suppose. not saying that you are not outraged, but this story really got to me.

Society, I think the dad was referring to the fact that in the US, police brutality during riots, that would result in death, should not be an issue as it is in other countries.

Shooting something (whether it's rubber bullets, pelts, or rubber tipped bullets) indiscriminately at a crowd is a horrible tactic.

true enough. who is going to protect us from the supposed protectors ? I'm afraid this incident, while horrible, is just a tiny blip compared to what is coming down the pike. police brutality is just going to get worse.

we the people are supposed to be the ones who empower the police. to protect us, not slaughter & brutilize us.

wtf has happened to the U.S.? not that this is a new thing, I realize

 

[Drozmight]

John Titor

 

[tenchir]

Shooting something (whether it's rubber bullets, pelts, or rubber tipped bullets) indiscriminately at a crowd is a horrible tactic.

I feel pretty much the same about this, although I'm alot more outraged I suppose. not saying that you are not outraged, but this story really got to me.



true enough. who is going to protect us from the supposed protectors ? I'm afraid this incident, while horrible, is just a tiny blip compared to what is coming down the pike. police brutality is just going to get worse.

we the people are supposed to be the ones who empower the police. to protect us, not slaughter & brutilize us.

wtf has happened to the U.S.? not that this is a new thing, I realize

Then would you suggest be a better tactic? Consider that the potentially violent crowd far outnumbered you and other officers? If one of them starts throwing bottles at you, how long do you think it would take for the others to do the same if you don't use force?

These accidents shouldn't happen, but it's unavoidable when you are dealing with large number of peoples. The larger the crowd, the greater chance something could happen. At least the rioting wasn't as large as those soccer riots.

 

[Deg]

Ah, to someday hold the rewarding job of public servant.

Yes the police are not human. They are perfect.

Sounds like the police is at fault here. Well for the UK anyway i assume. The victim sounds like she didnt deserve the result i think.

Then would you suggest be a better tactic? Consider that the potentially violent crowd far outnumbered you and other officers? If one of them starts throwing bottles at you, how long do you think it would take for the others to do the same if you don't use force?

These accidents shouldn't happen, but it's unavoidable when you are dealing with large number of peoples. The larger the crowd, the greater chance something could happen. At least the rioting wasn't as large as those soccer riots.

I agree. What the Police should do is blindfold themselves and fire a machine gun To hell with all the rules, training and regulations that are in place.

 

[Shinobi]

Society, I think the dad was referring to the fact that in the US, police brutality during riots, that would result in death, should not be an issue as it is in other countries.

Shooting something (whether it's rubber bullets, pelts, or rubber tipped bullets) indiscriminately at a crowd is a horrible tactic.

Funny thing is that this has been an issue for 40 years now...there's nothing new about it simply because it happened to some middle class white chick.

And I think the point Society and I made still stands...it shouldn't happen to ANYONE. Not everyone who lives in the US is a citizen.

 

[Xenon]

But if you can't handle it, put the badge down and drive a bus.

Or maybe instead of just criticizing you should go put on a badge.

I sure that dude didn't go to work that night hoping he got a chance to fire into the crowd. He probably just wanted to put in his time and get on with his life. Just as everyone here does with their jobs. But, shit happened and he made an error in judgement and fired a NON leathal weapon onto the crowd and someone died in a tragic accident. Is he a murderer HELL NO.

 

[Loki]

And I think the point Society and I made still stands...it shouldn't happen to ANYONE. Not everyone who lives in the US is a citizen.

I agree that it shouldn't (in the ethical sense) happen to anyone, but the distinction you're making here-- about not all American civilians being citizens-- is:


A) not the distinction Society was making, which was concerned with nationalism (i.e., Americans supposedly seeing themselves as "more worthy of legal protections", or "inherently better" than citizens of other nations), and...

B) not really germane to the discussion, because as I noted in my initial post, the more logical interpretation of the father's words ("this shouldn't happen to any American citizen") is that "should not" was being used to indicate that such an action was not probable or expected, not in the normative sense of "it ought not to happen, morally" (which would necessarily have to apply to people of all countries, since all human life is of equal value); the reason I believe that my interpretation is more logical is, firstly, because the father made no other racist/jingoistic comments that would force us to view his comment in a negative light; also, because this American citizen/American civilian dichotomy is wholly artificial and inapplicable when viewed in light of the context I proposed (which there is no reason to argue against; i.e., no mitigating cues/comments), since American citizens and American residents are entitled to the same legal protections, and so it would not be probable or expected for this to happen to either American citizens or any other American civilian. I feel that it's pretty clear that he used the word "citizen" not to indicate one's legal status (i.e., that of a legal US citizen), but rather in the sense of "an inhabitant of this country who is entitled to the legal protections of this country's laws".


Also, as mentioned, Society was not making the distinction between American citizens and OTHER American civilians, but rather between "American lives" and "other human lives" (presumably from other countries; fart's "jingoistic" comment, which Society didn't see fit to correct, supports that interpretation, since it sets up the dichotomy between Americans and those of other nationalities; Society's own words, particularly his later "clarification" about the supposedly analogous "this shouldn't happen to whites", also support this view).


I just firmly believe that his jumping to that conclusion (and, yes, yours and fart's as well, if you're making the same exact point, which is not as clear ) was wholly unwarranted based on what was actually said. Again, I realize that there is a lot of "an American life is worth more than another's life" sentiment making the rounds in this country (which is reprehensible and totally indefensible, morally), but I honestly do not feel that this is an instance of such foolish thought. I also feel that to read everything he did into a comment that I totally didn't read any of that in betrays some sort of bias or rush to judgment for whatever reasons. I feel that this is wrong (being that it is unsupported by the evidence), and wanted to point that out.


The same way that I wouldn't give a guy a free pass if he asserted that American lives are worth more than French or Iraqi or Somalian lives (and I've taken numerous people to task for precisely that over the years; Centuryon comes to mind), I am not going to give a guy a free pass to impugn the motives or character of a man who said nothing wrong. I just can't do it. Society had no basis whatsoever to say what he did in this situation. Hope you can understand.

 

[Shinobi]

Or maybe instead of just criticizing you should go put on a badge.

I sure that dude didn't go to work that night hoping he got a chance to fire into the crowd. He probably just wanted to put in his time and get on with his life. Just as everyone here does with their jobs. But, shit happened and he made an error in judgement and fired a NON leathal weapon onto the crowd and someone died in a tragic accident. Is he a murderer HELL NO.

If you're such a bad ass, you go pick up a badge.

I already know I couldn't handle it...doesn't mean I can't be critical. When you're getting paid on public dime, the public has every right to criticize your ass. And when the fuck did I call him a murderer anyway? Jesus Christ...talk about a fucking leap in logic. Anyway, let's just hope someone you know isn't taken out by a mere error in judgement.

 

[Xenon]

If you're such a bad ass, you go pick up a badge.

I already know I couldn't handle it...doesn't mean I can't be critical. When you're getting paid on public dime, the public has every right to criticize your ass. And when the fuck did I call him a murderer anyway? Jesus Christ...talk about a fucking leap in logic. Anyway, let's just hope someone you know isn't taken out by a mere error in judgement.

me too.

I never said I was a bad ass, but I also wasn't telling someone to go drive a bus. This guy was using the supposed non leathal tools provided to him to control a situation that was not of his own creation. What you think that after that bottle was thrown that everyone just did nothing. Usually crowds like that cheer and more stuff follows. You weren't there and dont know exactly what happened. So I find it a little insulting that you can say "hey if you cant take it..." Stand in a man's shoes before saying shit like that.

 

[Shinobi]

You can feel insulted all you want. If that girl is someone I know, I'd be feeling a hell of a lot more then just insulted.

You did make a good point though...WTF did a "non-lethal" projectile turn lethal? It reminds me of the people that suffered serious injuries and death from tazer guns.

 

[ShadowRed]

You can feel insulted all you want. If that girl is someone I know, I'd be feeling a hell of a lot more then just insulted.

You did make a good point though...WTF did a "non-lethal" projectile turn lethal? It reminds me of the people that suffered serious injuries and death from tazer guns.

None lethal is a misnomer. What they really are are "less lethal" weapons. They are ment to be used but not to certainly cause death. If you shoot someone in the chest with a normal gun they are more than likly going to die, if you hit them with a "less lethal" weapon they normally will not. The cavate to that is the place you shoot them and the distance. If throw at rock and hit you in the eye you can die. Also I believe if you use a non lethal weapon within 60-50 feet of a person you increase the liklyhood of death. Most law enforcemnet people I have spoken with have tole me they were trained to shoot for the chest area, never for the head and only at ranges that exceed either 60 or 50 feet. Obviously distance wasn't the problem in this case, it was aiming for the face area. Another interesting fact I have heard from my law enforcement friends is that these types of weapons can't be traced back to a gun, so unless the authorities can never ID the officer who shot and interview him to see if he broke his training, not that he or she would admit to it anyways.

 

[Xenon]

You can feel insulted all you want. If that girl is someone I know, I'd be feeling a hell of a lot more then just insulted.

But if a cop had been killed in a riot would we see a post here... hell no. I've been reading these forums since before the Dreamcast and I can't recall a single outrage thread such as this for a cop... I guess they're just expected to die. To me that is beyond fucked up.

One of the things that really bothers me about the current mindset is that people are so detached from any responsibility of maintaining the society in which they live. "oh, I pay my taxes that’s the cops job" So we send these cops out underpaid(most cops have to work another job), under equipped, and outnumbered. But don’t let them mess up or we'll be the first ones calling for their ass.

This guy wasn’t a dirty cop or someone who meant to kill or even severely harm someone. At worst he over reacted to the situation. Its a situation that we put him in. I know trying to blame the victim is like trying to blame a drop of rain for a flood. But she did have some culpability for the situation just as everyone else there did. It’s so fucking wrong that we need cops lined up with anti riot gear for something as stupid as a sporting event. It’s not like the citizens of Boston made an effort to stop things from reaching that point. No they just hand the guy a weapon and set him up to try to control thousands of drunken morons. So he uses the weapon and things don’t work out as they should, and we get a post here in leftist-age saying the guy should be dropped naked out of an airplane and you saying he should lose his job. Nice.


You asked me to put me on a badge. There is no way in hell I’m going to risk my life to protect the ignorant, ungrateful, and narcissistic populous. I do, however, have a lot of respect for anyone who actually would.

 

[AeroGod]

But if a cop had been killed in a riot would we see a post here... hell no. I've been reading these forums since before the Dreamcast and I can't recall a single outrage thread such as this for a cop... I guess they're just expected to die. To me that is beyond fucked up.

One of the things that really bothers me about the current mindset is that people are so detached from any responsibility of maintaining the society in which they live. "oh, I pay my taxes that’s the cops job" So we send these cops out underpaid(most cops have to work another job), under equipped, and outnumbered. But don’t let them mess up or we'll be the first ones calling for their ass.

This guy wasn’t a dirty cop or someone who meant to kill or even severely harm someone. At worst he over reacted to the situation. Its a situation that we put him in. I know trying to blame the victim is like trying to blame a drop of rain for a flood. But she did have some culpability for the situation just as everyone else there did. It’s so fucking wrong that we need cops lined up with anti riot gear for something as stupid as a sporting event. It’s not like the citizens of Boston made an effort to stop things from reaching that point. No they just hand the guy a weapon and set him up to try to control thousands of drunken morons. So he uses the weapon and things don’t work out as they should, and we get a post here in leftist-age saying the guy should be dropped naked out of an airplane and you saying he should lose his job. Nice.


You asked me to put me on a badge. There is no way in hell I’m going to risk my life to protect the ignorant, ungrateful, and narcissistic populous. I do, however, have a lot of respect for anyone who actually would.

THATS A FUCKING CUP OF PWNAGE RIGHT THERE. Thats a great post.