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[What did he mean by this?]

Is that really the issue though? You might not be able to tell a thousand people to stop moving, but you can tell the people at the back not to just ram into the people stopped on front of them. You may not be able to know the people at the end of the crush are dying, but you can know that the people directly in front of you have stopped.

Also not disputing the responsibility everyone from the architects to the even planners to the police have in failing to prevent the tragedy.

I also admit that my ideas may be a bit theoretical and philosophical for such an emotional issue, especially for people who are closer to the event. Nonetheless I think it is worth looking at the cultural factors that lead to these situations, even if these are actually fundamental to humanity and can't be changed.

When you say "ram into people" it makes me question if you know or care to know what youre talking about.

Its a wave. Theres no ramming or pushing, just small parts with no choice but to move

 

[moggio]

Is that really the issue though? You might not be able to tell a thousand people to stop moving, but you can tell the people at the back not to just ram into the people stopped on front of them. You may not be able to know the people at the end of the crush are dying, but you can know that the people directly in front of you have stopped.

Also not disputing the responsibility everyone from the architects to the even planners to the police have in failing to prevent the tragedy.

I also admit that my ideas may be a bit theoretical and philosophical for such an emotional issue, especially for people who are closer to the event. Nonetheless I think it is worth looking at the cultural factors that lead to these situations, even if these are actually fundamental to humanity and can't be changed.

Stop it, mate. You're making yourself look like a fool.

 

[SomedayTheFire]

Is that really the issue though? You might not be able to tell a thousand people to stop moving, but you can tell the people at the back not to just ram into the people stopped on front of them. You may not be able to know the people at the end of the crush are dying, but you can know that the people directly in front of you have stopped.

Also not disputing the responsibility everyone from the architects to the even planners to the police have in failing to prevent the tragedy.

I also admit that my ideas may be a bit theoretical and philosophical for such an emotional issue, especially for people who are closer to the event. Nonetheless I think it is worth looking at the cultural factors that lead to these situations, even if these are actually fundamental to humanity and can't be changed.

You have quite literally no idea what you're talking about.

 

[iamblades]

Turning a case of a human crush caused by traceable, evident errors by police and stadium planners into some kind of chatter about the philosophy of crowds does not make any sense to me.

This was not caused by any cultural factors, it was caused by human error. Those errors were covered up and denied by the humans that made them, and now they have officially been exposed by the law.

I think there is an interesting discussion to be had there, but in hindsight this was the wrong venue for that.

 

[KarneeKarnay]

Regardless of any slope in the tunnel, eventually you will reach a point where you can't move forward, so could we maybe start using our brains in situations like this and just stop and wait instead of trying to push the people in front of us(who are presumably stopped for a reason) forward?

I'm not sure you understand what happens in a crowd crush scenario.

This is what happened and is not disputed.
1. A gate was opened to a finite amount of area.
2. People who were waiting outside ran in.
3. They stropped when they reached the front.
4. The people at the front now know how much space there is.
5. The 1000+ people at the back are not aware. They either run or slowly push forward.
6. The people who are now coming in are still not aware there is only a little space left.
7. They are nudging or encouraging the people ahead of them to me.
8. The people who were at the front can not move and are yelling out to the people pushing they can't go any further.
9. The people at the back can't hear them.
10. The people at the front are now starting to be crushed by the people moving from behind. They can't move out of the way. Their screams are not heard by the people in the back.
11. The people in the middle are now starting to be crushed.
12. The fans around the stadium, the players and the authorities are aware of what is happening. They are trying to tell the people at the back to stop moving forward.
13. The people at the back stop moving forward when they find out there is no more room. During this time hundreds have been injured and 96 were killed.

Some may have pushed. The majority didn't. They just thought they were going into an empty area to watch a football match. Most had no idea they were causing the death of others just by moving forward a few paces.

You've got to imagine this like water pressure. The pressure doesn't stop because the water can't move forward, it just gets more and more intense. People had no idea what was happening. All the knew was that the authorities had opened a gate to let them in. They could only assume that there was enough space.

 

[Ithil]

I think there is an interesting discussion to be had there, but in hindsight this was the wrong venue for that.

There is perhaps a discussion to be had about people being overly pushy at an event such as a metal concert, if you wish to talk about social aspects of crowds.

But this disaster had nothing to do with "pushy fans". The fans were not at fault, as this second inquest has officially concluded. Hell, this isn't new information, the Taylor Report in 1990 concluded that police errors and stadium deficiencies were the cause, and dismissed the claims by police that the fans were to blame . The issue for the past 27 years has been the substandard first inquest and the continuing denial and coverup of the negligence and errors made by police and other services.

You don't seem well-informed about the Hillsborough disaster, I believe you have a false impression of what it was.

 

[Eye for an Eye]

Crowd dynamics are no longer about singular movement or the choice of one. Even prior to the game you could see that fluid movement of the crowd swaying. It was not a singular person that could make a choice. You move like water.

The problem with those pens was that they could not move sideways once they reached the front. They could only move sideways in the rear and creating a deadly problem for those in the front.

Moving in a crowd, unless you're on the edge, you can't make an individual decision. We are by nature herd animals. We stick together in crowds. The pens on the side were open with a ton of space, but you had to enter from the side of the building. Sure, a few might notice the less crowded side and head in that direction, but also may not if they've never been to the venue.

If that gate was closed or horses in front, the crowd would approach it and then split to the sides. They would've moved like water to empty space.

Read the whole reddit link. There are many more links within the topic and many more social experiments to explain it.

 

[Indrid Cold1]

No it's not? That's asinine.

The front page of that paper is grossly offensive to any relative of the 96, any of the survivors that day who ripped down advertising hoardings to use as makeshift stretchers to get the injured clear of the melee while the paramedics stood there doing nothing, any and pretty much anyone from liverpool or anyone who is a football fan should be offended by that? Asinine? Fucking asinine? You've nearly got me banned mate.

 

[Feorax]

The vigil at St George's Hall was incredibly powerful. I hope the families get everything they could hope for out of this.

 

[Eye for an Eye]

The only thing I don't see as a problem was the barrier created to keep the opposing side on their end of the field. The cause was already a wave of a people being crushed, would it have served any purpose to have people rushing from the other side? The only downside was the lack of police effort to help instead of just standing there. Am I wrong in my thinking?

 

[The Lamonster]

Glad they can finally have some justice. I had no idea it was up in the air for so long.

People in America don't talk about this very much. Or football in general.

 

[elseanio]

The only thing I don't see as a problem was the barrier created to keep the opposing side on their end of the field. The cause was already a wave of a people being crushed, would it have served any purpose to have people rushing from the other side? The only downside was the lack of police effort to help instead of just standing there. Am I wrong in my thinking?

But no one was rushing from the other side. There was no need for a police line, nor a need for police dogs.

You can see footage of fans even breaking through that police line with makeshift stretchers, rushing to help

 

[BunnyBear]

The front page of that paper is grossly offensive to any relative of the 96, any of the survivors that day who ripped down advertising hoardings to use as makeshift stretchers to get the injured clear of the melee while the paramedics stood there doing nothing, any and pretty much anyone from liverpool or anyone who is a football fan should be offended by that? Asinine? Fucking asinine? You've nearly got me banned mate.

I'm completely with you on it being a horrific and unwarranted attack on innocent people. My point is you can't go censoring history like that. We don't censor horrific photos of history for that reason.

People need to learn from the mistakes that were made. I wouldn't use The Sun to start a fire but I don't think iconic moments in history should be censored because they are immensely troubling to confront.

 

[moggio]

Documentary of people recounting their first-hand experiences of the disaster:

The Day I Nearly Died - Hillsborough: https://youtu.be/6eOlTtRvD9Q