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[SD-Ness]

A thread related to this one: Why is it that "creators" are more creative while under the influence?

Since I aspire to be a writer, I am constantly thinking about "creating" things. A couple of months ago, I was concerned with how drug use affected creation. Now I'm wondering about depression and its affects.

Ernest Hemingway once said, "Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know."

I often visit websites like kirjasto - books & writers and the literature network to read about the backgrounds of various writers. One thing I have discovered after reading these biographies is that many artists (yes, not just writers anymore...) suffer from depression, addiction, or other psychological complications.

Why is this? Is there some scientific explanantion? Are people with this unstable state of mind more able to create/discover things? It appears to me that many artists/intellectuals/creators are like this. Am I wrong?

Ernest Hemingway - Author
In 1960 Hemingway was hospitalized at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, for treatment of depression, and released in 1961. During this time he was given electric shock therapy for two months. On July 2 Hemingway committed suicide with his favorite shotgun at his home in Ketchum, Idaho.

Sylvia Plath - Poet
Plath died in London on February 11, 1963; she committed suicide.

Anne Sexton - Poet
Committed suicide.

Charlie Parker - Musician
Due to his drug addiction and chance-taking personality, enjoyed playing with fire too much. In 1951, his cabaret license was revoked in New York. In 1954, he twice attempted suicide before spending time in Bellevue. His health, shaken by a very full if brief life of excesses, gradually declined, and when he died in March 1955 at the age of 34, he could have passed for 64.

Edgar Allen Poe - Poet
One the greatest and unhappiest of American poets. Poe suffered from bouts of depression and madness, and he attempted suicide in 1848. In September the following year he disappeared for three days after a drink at a birthday party and on his way to visit his new fiancée in Richmond. He turned up in delirious condition in Baltimore gutter and died on October 7, 1849.

Akira Kurosawa - Director
After an attempted suicide, Kurosawa went on to make several more films: Dersu Uzala, made in the USSR and set in Siberia in the early 20th century, won an Oscar; Kagemusha, the story of a man who is the double of a medieval Japanese lord and takes over his identity; and the aforementioned Ran, which was a phenomenal international success and is considered to be the crowning artistic achievement of Kurosawa's career.

Kurt Cobain - Musician
Depression, committed suicide.

Another question:
This isn't meant to be homophobic: Why are many poets/dramaists homosexual? W. H. Auden, Isherwood, Walt Whitman, Ginsberg, William S. Burroughs, Proust, etc. Is there a social or scientific reason behind this?

I myself write poetry and am heterosexual, but a lot of my friends consider it an odd thing to do. At a club meeting in school, a friend of mine was leaving early to read some poetry at Starbucks. After he left, some of the people joked that he was going off to get in touch with his "emotional" side.

Well there, two questions. Give me your thoughts.

 

[Days like these...]

it's criminal that you listed that hack among the rest of the intellectuals but I think they have more trouble dealing with this fucked up world we live in hence the depression

 

[Macam]

but I think they have more trouble dealing with this fucked up world we live in hence the depression

How profound. Now excuse me, who's the hack, exactly?

 

[Mike Works]

Ernest Hemingway...

Edgar Allan Poe...

Kurt Cobain.

 

[GG-Duo]

I myself write poetry and am heterosexual, but a lot of my friends consider it an odd thing to do.

Writing poetry, or being heterosexual?
Or do you mean.. being a heterosexual poet?

If it's the last one - go punch your friends in the face.

I can't remember the quote, but Elizabeth Bishop said some harsh things against the fashionability of madness in creative circles.

 

[impirius]

Intellectuals: "Everything is emptiness and chasing after the wind. There is nothing to be gained under the sun."

Others: "Hey that thing is shiny"

 

[slayn]

Those of us unlucky to be smart spend too much time thinking and less time doing.

 

[Ill Saint]

Nick Drake, Van Gogh, Kurt Schwitters... a few more who died miserable and poor (or through their own hand). It's the life of a lot of artists. The constant struggle for acknowledgement of their work, the uncertain lifestyle. Most artists wants success, and when you're encountering brick wall after brick wall, it takes a toll. You often keep asking yourself "why?". Why can't I get a break? What am I doing wrong? etc. It does your head in...

Of course, it's not the same for everyone, but the above example is common for many.

Those of us unlucky to be smart spend too much time thinking and less time doing.

Elaborate?

 

[fart]

Ernest Hemingway...

Edgar Allan Poe...

Kurt Cobain.

:lol

 

[Triumph]

Please note that F. Scott Fitzgerald did NOT commit suicide... I don't think. Further proof that he wasn't a great artist after all!

Also, Hemmingway is the ultimate bad ass. His suicice note was awe inspiring: "I can't fuck or drink anymore, and those were the only things I liked to do." My hero on so many levels...

 

[Greenpanda]

It's the life of a lot of artists. The constant struggle for acknowledgement of their work, the uncertain lifestyle. Most artists wants success, and when you're encountering brick wall after brick wall, it takes a toll. You often keep asking yourself "why?". Why can't I get a break? What am I doing wrong? etc. It does your head in...

That's a good point! I'm sure there's also an effect running in the opposite direction, too: People who are depressed might also want more to be artists, if they don't feel like a "regular" career is going to be enough to make them happy.

Also, people who are more emotional or sensitive might make better artists, but being especially sensitive also makes one more apt to end up depressed.

I am sure it is combination of factors like these.

 

[hXc_thugg]

Hemmingway was pretty hXc.

As for the actualy topic, I write a lot as well. Poetry, short stories, but mostly I like to write prose. I don't think I'm that depressed, certainly not on the level as some of the people you listed, however I don't ever really feel particularly excited about any elements of life.

Those of us unlucky to be smart spend too much time thinking and less time doing.

This actually is what I think makes me somewhat depressed. I don't sleep very well, so at night I just write a lot and think about things. I most likely over-analyze things that other people don't even think about, mostly introspective stuff. Introspection tends to kind of tear you down I guess.

I don't really consider myself an intellectual, though. (Don't want to sound pompous!)

 

[Boogie]

"artist" != "intellectual"

 

[karasu]

haha it's because creative people aren't immune to the shit that affects the rest of the world. They're just like everyone else, but famous. Depression, drug use, and creativity aren't uniquely linked.

 

[Crispy]

I don't consider myself an artist or something, but I do know I'm an intelligent person. Often times I view life in a pretty negative way, mostly because I gather all the facts and make a view of reality based on those facts. Often times, those facts are twisted to the way I think, making them more negative. I think this is because I analyse the facts more than really necessary and thus creating a more negative world for myself than people who don't overthink thing as much as myself.

 

[Zaptruder]

People that are unhappy and depressed are more likely to take time to examine things and think deeply.

If you're happy, thoughts tend to be more fleeting and dismissable.

 

[ToxicAdam]

I think depression and pain create art not intelligence. That is why alot of artists purposely make thier lives shitty.

 

[Manabanana]

I'm a crybaby

And you smell! INTROSPECT THAT!

 

[Zaptruder]

just as a qualifier to my statement, deep depression would fuck you up more than it made you think straight. Some amount of unhappiness can help a person think more clearly or at least more deeply.

Why are depressed people more creative? Hmmm... they might not necessarily be; but that as a culture we hold in higher esteem more depressive pieces of art than bright and cheerful ones, which we often malign as saccharine or some such.

 

[Litigation Manuel]

I like to make music and I paint and write. I also might be considered smart, I do very well in school. However, I think the whole idea that only pain and misery can create art or that being intellectual means you have to be unhappy is nonsense. I think a big reason so many are miserable is that they want to feel superior. When you're miserable and you think no one else can understand, you feel it's because they don't have the capacity to understand the cause, that they're inferior. So I think many intellectuals are depressed so that they may feel pride. Personally, I've never seen any point to this. You can be smart and creative without being depressed and cynical, because in all honesty there's no real benefit to it, besides that feeling of superiority, which kinda makes one an ass.

 

[RiZ III]

Cause we realize life is pointless.

 

[kablooey]

I like to make music and I paint and write. I also might be considered smart, I do very well in school. However, I think the whole idea that only pain and misery can create art or that being intellectual means you have to be unhappy is nonsense. I think a big reason so many are miserable is that they want to feel superior. When you're miserable and you think no one else can understand, you feel it's because they don't have the capacity to understand the cause, that they're inferior. So I think many intellectuals are depressed so that they may feel pride. Personally, I've never seen any point to this. You can be smart and creative without being depressed and cynical, because in all honesty there's no real benefit to it, besides that feeling of superiority, which kinda makes one an ass.

Bingo. The idea that only suicidal depression can produce great is a myth. Without being a pompous ass, most people say I'm reasonably intelligent, and I do like to create. However, the time when I had the most trouble doing anything creative was when I was deeply depressed. It's completely debilitating, for the most part. Some level of sadness is helpful, but really, any intelligent person will experience that if they just act normally.

 

[Jim Bowie]

The ratio of intellectuals getting laid and partying to daft-headed persons getting laid and partying is 1:25. I think that about does it.

Intellectuals are busy writing, contemplating life's greater meanings, or waxing politico on a video-game message board on the internet. Where does one fit in the partying?!?

 

[Liono]

There's a whole lot of sweeping generalizations in this thread, beginning with the first post. Those people were depressed and tried committing suicide because they lived poor life styles, pure and simple, not because they were intellectually above the rest of us and saw the 'truth' in life. Someone else said because they were artists-- it's true, true artists live for their art, what they produce is an expression of who they are, and ultimately it is us that decides to accept them or not. How do you think they feel when we don't? It's just plain dumb to think that depression makes you an artist or an intellectual.

 

[Litigation Manuel]

Bingo. The idea that only suicidal depression can produce great is a myth. Without being a pompous ass, most people say I'm reasonably intelligent, and I do like to create. However, the time when I had the most trouble doing anything creative was when I was deeply depressed. It's completely debilitating, for the most part. Some level of sadness is helpful, but really, any intelligent person will experience that if they just act normally.

Exactly, depression is not necessary for creating. Really, any strong emotion can lend inspiration, some of my best work was made in pure happiness. Plus, there's only so much sad music you can handle, people rarely stay sad forever. A true creator and innovator can create under any emotion, as long as they play or make what they feel.

 

[Kai Dracon]

I like to make music and I paint and write. I also might be considered smart, I do very well in school. However, I think the whole idea that only pain and misery can create art or that being intellectual means you have to be unhappy is nonsense. I think a big reason so many are miserable is that they want to feel superior. When you're miserable and you think no one else can understand, you feel it's because they don't have the capacity to understand the cause, that they're inferior. So I think many intellectuals are depressed so that they may feel pride. Personally, I've never seen any point to this. You can be smart and creative without being depressed and cynical, because in all honesty there's no real benefit to it, besides that feeling of superiority, which kinda makes one an ass.

I can halfway agree here. I do the art thing and people I know seem to think I'm somewhat teh smart (I'm not going to make any declarations of my own intellectual superiority here). I deal with the philosophical stuff and a lot of what is consider the intellectual stuff. I know a lot of people who are considered intellectual and a few card-carrying philosophers with their masters in it.

What I have found is that a lot of intellectuals do torture themselves with the "nobody understands my mighty brain" card. They may have some small point - often they DO know something, often it IS something easily misunderstood, but they do turn it into arrogance. Some that I know are asses. They do write off the unwashed masses and create exaggerated windows for depression.

By the same hand, I do think some intellectuals do ponder and consider things most people just don't. I do think some despair not because they think they're the shit, but because they want to cry at how many people do so many ignorant things - these guys WANT everybody else to get up to speed for their own good, they don't want to be superior. Many of these would gladly be educators if anybody would listen - they don't have an ego.

I know that the times when I've been intellectually depressed it has been because I see needless and senseless stupidity, and misunderstanding of nuanced concepts and ideas which could benefit people, yet they don't care about due to their own prejudices and foibles or cultural barriers. I do not think I was born with a gold spoon in my mouth. I don't even care what my IQ is. Being depressed doesn't help me - it hurts my creative ability, it hurts my intellectual ability.

 

[Triumph]

The ratio of intellectuals getting laid and partying to daft-headed persons getting laid and partying is 1:25. I think that about does it.

Intellectuals are busy writing, contemplating life's greater meanings, or waxing politico on a video-game message board on the internet. Where does one fit in the partying?!?

It's hard, but believe me I manage. Er, the partying part. Not so much on the getting laid part.

THANKS A LOT FOR REMINDING ME OF MY FAILINGS RELATIVE TO SOCIETY'S NORMS, NOW I MUST DRINK MORE AND WRITE A BIZARRE SHORT STORY IN THE 2ND PERSON ABOUT A WORM SALESMAN NAMED RUDOLFO.

 

[Jim Bowie]

THANKS A LOT FOR REMINDING ME OF MY FAILINGS RELATIVE TO SOCIETY'S NORMS, NOW I MUST DRINK MORE AND WRITE A BIZARRE SHORT STORY IN THE 2ND PERSON ABOUT A WORM SALESMAN NAMED RUDOLFO.

Shit, you too?

RUDOLFO IS AN OUTWARD EXPRESSION OF MY SOUL, COMBINING THE TRAITS OF WILLY LOMAN AND BILLY PILGRIM IN A MASSIVE STRUGGLE TO CONTROL MY HEART.

 

[Doth Togo]

A thread related to this one: Why is it that "creators" are more creative while under the influence?

Since I aspire to be a writer, I am constantly thinking about "creating" things. A couple of months ago, I was concerned with how drug use affected creation. Now I'm wondering about depression and its affects.

Ernest Hemingway once said, "Happiness in intelligent people is the rarest thing I know."

I often visit websites like kirjasto - books & writers and the literature network to read about the backgrounds of various writers. One thing I have discovered after reading these biographies is that many artists (yes, not just writers anymore...) suffer from depression, addiction, or other psychological complications.

Why is this? Is there some scientific explanantion? Are people with this unstable state of mind more able to create/discover things? It appears to me that many artists/intellectuals/creators are like this. Am I wrong?

Ernest Hemingway - Author
In 1960 Hemingway was hospitalized at the Mayo Clinic in Rochester, Minnesota, for treatment of depression, and released in 1961. During this time he was given electric shock therapy for two months. On July 2 Hemingway committed suicide with his favorite shotgun at his home in Ketchum, Idaho.

Sylvia Plath - Poet
Plath died in London on February 11, 1963; she committed suicide.

Anne Sexton - Poet
Committed suicide.

Charlie Parker - Musician
Due to his drug addiction and chance-taking personality, enjoyed playing with fire too much. In 1951, his cabaret license was revoked in New York. In 1954, he twice attempted suicide before spending time in Bellevue. His health, shaken by a very full if brief life of excesses, gradually declined, and when he died in March 1955 at the age of 34, he could have passed for 64.

Edgar Allen Poe - Poet
One the greatest and unhappiest of American poets. Poe suffered from bouts of depression and madness, and he attempted suicide in 1848. In September the following year he disappeared for three days after a drink at a birthday party and on his way to visit his new fiancée in Richmond. He turned up in delirious condition in Baltimore gutter and died on October 7, 1849.

Akira Kurosawa - Director
After an attempted suicide, Kurosawa went on to make several more films: Dersu Uzala, made in the USSR and set in Siberia in the early 20th century, won an Oscar; Kagemusha, the story of a man who is the double of a medieval Japanese lord and takes over his identity; and the aforementioned Ran, which was a phenomenal international success and is considered to be the crowning artistic achievement of Kurosawa's career.

Kurt Cobain - Musician
Depression, committed suicide.

Another question:
This isn't meant to be homophobic: Why are many poets/dramaists homosexual? W. H. Auden, Isherwood, Walt Whitman, Ginsberg, William S. Burroughs, Proust, etc. Is there a social or scientific reason behind this?

I myself write poetry and am heterosexual, but a lot of my friends consider it an odd thing to do. At a club meeting in school, a friend of mine was leaving early to read some poetry at Starbucks. After he left, some of the people joked that he was going off to get in touch with his "emotional" side.

Well there, two questions. Give me your thoughts.

You forgot the lead singer from INXS.

Meditate. Best INXS song ever.






Hallucinate
Dessegregate
Mediate
Alleviate
Try not to hate

Love your mate
Don't suffocate on your own hate
Designate your love as fate
A one world state
As human freight
The number eight
A white black state
A gentle trait
The broken crate
A heavy weight
Or just too late
Like pretty Kate has sex ornate
Now devastate
Appreciate
Depreciate
Fabricate
Emulate
The truth dilate
Special date
The animal we ate
Guilt debate
The edge serrate
A better rate
The youth irate
Deliberate

Fascinate
Deviate
Reinstate
Liberate
To moderate
Recreate
Or detonate
Annihiliate
Atomic fate

Mediate
Clear the state
Activate
Now radiate
A perfect state
Food on plate
Gravitate
The Earth's own weight
Designate your love as fate
At ninety-eight we all rotate

Hallucinate
Dessegregate
Mediate
Alleviate
Try not to hate

Love your mate
Don't suffocate on your own hate
Designate your love as fate
A one world state
As human freight
The number eight
A white black state
A gentle trait
The broken crate

A heavy weight
Or just too late
Like pretty Kate has sex ornate

Now devastate
Appreciate
Depreciate
Fabricate
Emulate
The truth dilate
Special date
The animals we ate
Guilt debate
The edge serrate
A better rate
The youth irate
Deliberate
Fascinate
Deviate
Reinstate

Liberate

 

[Eminem]

:lol :lol @ RD


but yeah...i've had a decent amount of women while still maintaining a cumulative 4.0 GPA...and i'm a borderline alcoholic, seriously.

but i do LOVE Poe. Probably my favorite author of all-time. I love his work.

then again, I am no artist. I am book smart and hope to write for publications when I graduate...sports hopefully.

I've never been really depressed, just had to suffer through shitty weeks that everyone has.
I mean, I could see myself dying before or at 50, but I will have hopefully devoted all my time to something I love: sports. I would never write about my own personal heartbreakings because I usually just say 'hey, who cares?'

 

[White Man]

THANKS A LOT FOR REMINDING ME OF MY FAILINGS RELATIVE TO SOCIETY'S NORMS, NOW I MUST DRINK MORE AND WRITE A BIZARRE SHORT STORY IN THE 2ND PERSON ABOUT A WORM SALESMAN NAMED RUDOLFO.

You're going into Camus territory, sir. As far as I know, he's the only person that's written a (EDIT: good) novel in the second person. Easily his best work.

 

[slayn]

Nick Drake, Van Gogh, Kurt Schwitters... a few more who died miserable and poor (or through their own hand). It's the life of a lot of artists. The constant struggle for acknowledgement of their work, the uncertain lifestyle. Most artists wants success, and when you're encountering brick wall after brick wall, it takes a toll. You often keep asking yourself "why?". Why can't I get a break? What am I doing wrong? etc. It does your head in...

Of course, it's not the same for everyone, but the above example is common for many.


Elaborate?

Well... first of all when I first glanced at the topic, I thought we were talking about smart people being unhappy... not artists. I'm no artist and have nothing to say about that.

My point was pretty simple... smart people think too much. And don't end up doing what they would enjoy.

a smart person would think about how they want to get laid, and think about the costs/risks/effort associated with that endeavor. They would (probably not active but in the back of their mind) thinks about these along with probabilities and possible scenarios that might occur. They would also consider what else might be achieved in the same amount of time (I forget the business term for what you lose because you chose a different mutually exclusive option). They might also weigh the benefits/downsides and possibilities of an actual relationship upon finding someone.

a non smart person goes and meets someone and gets laid.

these are generilizations/stereotypes of course. And like all such generaltions, they are exagerated when applied to everyone but they are inspired by truth.

Smart people need a dimmer thingy. Like when you got one a those rooms where you can turn the dial to turn down the lights but not turn them off. I suppose alcohol would be the best possibly option in that regard.

 

[Triumph]

You're going into Camus territory, sir. As far as I know, he's the only person that's written a (EDIT: good) novel in the second person. Easily his best work.

I've tried to write in the 2nd person. Ye gods, have I tried. Nothing.

My best work(IMO, anyway) is in the 1st person. I've been told I'm a Holden Caufield author. Well, I would be, if I was a published author.

 

[JoshuaJSlone]

Why is this? Is there some scientific explanantion? Are people with this unstable state of mind more able to create/discover things? It appears to me that many artists/intellectuals/creators are like this. Am I wrong?

Are you sure there's a real correlation? Or is it just that out of the millions of unstable minds of the past, you're only familiar with those who were significant enough to remember?

 

[Pochacco]

Ignorance is bliss.
Of course, because of this, really smart people just choose to be ignorant.

 

[norinrad21]

Well i'm in a constant state of depression 90% of the time and have been like that since i was 11 and i don't consider myself an intellectual, creative or an artist

 

[Uter]

"artist" != "intellectual"

Why hasn't anyone else picked up on this yet? And Kurt Cobain as an intellectual??.... :lol

 

[Bizarro Sun Yat-sen]

but that as a culture we hold in higher esteem more depressive pieces of art than bright and cheerful ones, which we often malign as saccharine or some such.

Maybe, but a lot of people who create reasonably bright and cheerful works of art are known to have rather gloomy personal lives as well.

 

[Teddman]

I did a version of this exact same type of thread at OA last August:

Why Are Intelligent People Often Most Depressed?

It got a lively discussion going for three pages. Reirom's response was especially insightful:

I THINK THE MODERN WORLD MAKE THE PPL DEPRESSED

VIOLENCE NO MORE TALKING FRIENDS AT ALL

BUT POOR PPL HAVE DEPRESSION BUT THEY DONT KNOW WHAT IS AND DONT DO TO DOCTOR

DEPRESSION SUX

 

[madara]

Ah eating from Tree of Knowledge syndrome. Perhaps more we think we learn, less truth we live in. Perhaps our days of childhood, fresh and young holds the most truth of our lives.

 

[crisdecuba]

Cause we realize life is pointless.

Hit the nail on the head.

~Cris