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Is Hollywood 'whitewashing' Asian roles?

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lenovox1

Member
No, it's basic US history that elementary school students are taught. To say that race in 21's story is anywhere near as important as race is for a story about MLK is just insulting.
So, as long as the main subject in a non-fiction work isn't famous, it's okay.

If a major film studio decided to adapt Iranian-American journalist Azadeh Moaveni's books Lipstick Jihad and Honeymoon in Tehran, they could cast her as Kristen Stuart and it'd be all right. She's age appropriate, so it's cool.

Well, glad to know where the arbitrary lines lay (Again, silly and antiquated).
 

Timedog

good credit (by proxy)
No, it's basic US history that elementary school students are taught. To say that race in 21's story is anywhere near as important as race is for a story about MLK is just insulting.

My post was only half-serious (although I think a roles-reversed 1960's racism story could potentially be fucking awesome).

But, okay, let's change MLK to Michael Jordan, or some black sports player whose story isn't going to be focused on race as it relates to US history. Jackie Robinson is out, for obvious reasons.
 

Makoto

Member
So, as long as the main subject in a non-fiction work isn't famous, it's okay.

If a major film studio decided to adapt Iranian-American journalist Azadeh Moaveni's books Lipstick Jihad and Honeymoon in Tehran, they could cast her as Kristen Stuart and it'd be all right. She's age appropriate, so it's cool.

Well, glad to know where the arbitrary lines lay (Again, silly and antiquated).
Way to complete miss the point. Majorly.

To clarify for the last time, the subject of race in 21's story is nowhere near as important as the subject of race in a story about an asian man fighting the wrongfulness of the Immigration Act of 1924. Race would be relevant in the latter because it's directly about adversity in the face of discrimination. Putting a white man in the role of the asian would be contradictory. 21/Bringing Down the House however, is just a popcorn story about smart kids breaking the rules and trying to make money out of it. 21's story isn't one about a landmark in Asian-American culture, it was always about what the kids did, not who they were.

But go ahead and act like 21's story is on the same plane of importance as Ali's when it comes to race.
 
No, it's basic US history that elementary school students are taught. To say that race in 21's story is anywhere near as important as race is for a story about MLK is just insulting.

No what's insulting is your implication that if a person/group isn't as important then it doesn't matter what liberties are taken when telling their story...
 

Puddles

Banned
What the guy in 21 looked like:

6812_slide1.jpg


What he should have looked like:

 

Sye d'Burns

Member
My post was only half-serious (although I think a roles-reversed 1960's racism story could potentially be fucking awesome).

But, okay, let's change MLK to Michael Jordan, or some black sports player whose story isn't going to be focused on race as it relates to US history. Jackie Robinson is out, for obvious reasons.

It's not the 60's but it is a pretty good movie.

White Man's Burden

51XH1STWRTL._SL500_AA300_.jpg


IMDB Synopsis said:
The story takes place in alternative America where the blacks are members of social elite, and whites are inhabitants of inner city ghettos. Louis Pinnock is a white worker in a chocolate factory, loving husband and father of two children. While delivering a package for black CEO Thaddeus Thomas, he is mistaken for a voyeur and, as a result, loses his job, gets beaten by black cops and his family gets evicted from their home. Desperate Pinnock takes a gun and kidnaps Thomas, demanding justice.
 
Just to sum up the usual excuses I hear from people defending Hollywood all the time:

"Bu..bu..but what about movies in other countries?! How come there are no white actors in Bollywood films or Indian actors starring in Japanese films! Reverse racism!"

Counter: To be fair to Bollywood there are actually films where their ethnic minorities are featured in a starring role. Sikhs are a minority in India for instance and they still get movies. Those movies though generally reflect the setting they are in. Hollywood films do not unless they happen to be set in small town America where it makes sense to have an all white cast. Think of how many movies/TV shows are set in multicultural city centres. Watching the OC, you'd think that Orange County is as white as Utah. Orange County is about 30% Asian. Of course, you wouldn't know that by watching the TV show. Think about the all the "positive" stereotypes of Asians and Indians being doctors. Have you ever seen a show set in a hospital that had more than a few token Asian people? The entertainment industry actually does a horrible job of reflecting real world demographics.


"Watch Asian cinema"

I mean, Asian cinema is cool and all but I speak English, think in English and sometimes I would like to see representations of people like myself. To date, the only movie that has done this are the Harold and Kumar movies. Think about how rare it is for a movie to feature a minority - gay, female, black whatever, and not typecasting them into their typical roles. Generally speaking if you see an Asian man in a Hollywood film, he's either speaking in a fobby accent like Ken Jeong from Hangover or a crossover star like Jackie Chan. There are very few portrayals of Asians in cinema like you see in the Harold and Kumar movies.

"Americans wouldn't be able to identify with foreign stars"

What you're basically saying here is that Asians are always going to be foreigners in America. Someone could be born here, be named Mike, grow up watching NASCAR and playing football but since he's Asian, he can never be in a film where he isn't playing the owner of a laundromat because Americans wouldn't know how to handle the sight of an Asian speaking perfect English and isn't a hot chick in a porno.
 

lenovox1

Member
Way to complete miss the point. Majorly.

To clarify for the last time, the subject of race in 21's story is nowhere near as important as the subject of race in a story about an asian man fighting the wrongfulness of the Immigration Act of 1924. Race would be relevant in the latter because it's directly about adversity in the face of discrimination. Putting a white man in the role of the asian would be contradictory. 21/Bringing Down the House however, is just a popcorn story about smart kids breaking the rules and trying to make money out of it. 21's story isn't one about a landmark in Asian-American culture, it was always about what the kids did, not who they were.

But go ahead and act like 21's story is on the same plane of importance as Ali's when it comes to race.

I get that.

My point was that you could do what they did with 21 to any non-fiction work that doesn't involve a famous or important person or event. Azadeh Moaveni isn't famous. She witnessed some important events, but she wasn't involved in any of them.

I think the biggest thing for me, is here's a role that's perfect for an up and coming Asian American actor, but they casted a unknown white actor anyways. In a field where minorities already have a tough time getting taken seriously, a field where they have to go to a different country to find work, that shit should not be "okay" or "just the way it is."

*Perfection*

The entertainment industry (and I'm talking about the big wigs, the creatives are usually have more modern ways of thinking), should really get it's head out of it's 1950's ass.
 

Makoto

Member
I get that.

My point was that you could do what they did with 21 to any non-fiction work that doesn't involve a famous or important person or event. Azadeh Moaveni isn't famous. She witnessed some important events, but she wasn't involved in any of them.

I think the biggest thing for me, is here's a role that's perfect for an up and coming Asian American actor, but they casted a unknown white actor anyways. In a field where minorities already have a tough time getting taken seriously, a field where they have to go to a different country to find work, that shit should not be "okay" or "just the way it is."

You're right, you could do what they did with 21 to any non-fiction work. Korea, right now, could adapt The Social Network and use nothing but Korean actors (because again, the story wasn't about who they were, it's what they did) and I don't know if I can fault them for that. (Edit: I know I'll get a few replies for the prior statement but it's just really to emphasize the rest of the my post.)

Hollywood is, at the end of the day, a business. It's a business that's risk averse and based around growth. They'll invest in movies like Better Luck Tomorrow, but they want to dump the big dollars into movies that yield the highest profit margins. Sometimes a higher profit margin means hiring a white male lead no matter how unknown because audiences are comfortable with it. Because audiences both domestic and international have demonstrated to the industry that they don't relate as well to the Rwandan trying to keep his people safe from genocide. But they do relate well to the white guy trying to keep his countrymen safe from genocide. Or the white guy trying to keep foreigners or minorities safe from discrimination.

I agree with you it isn't okay to not give the many roles in 21 based on Asian-Americans to actual Asian-American actors. My problem at the top of the page was comparison to Ali and MLK. Overall, what I am trying to say is that minorities just don't produce as much revenue as movies with white leads and while I also agree Hollywood is somewhat at fault, they're just reacting to what domestic and international audiences are paying for. It all hearkens back to my view that society is the one that needs change, but then, America, as diverse as it is, is really a society of people where the majority ethnicity wants to see their ethnicity do something heroic on-screen. Really no different from China's audiences or India's audiences.

I have to look at this post once more. Hollywood just doesn't revolve around art and equality, it revolves around market demand and money.
 

Puddles

Banned
Regarding Korea, there aren't really a whole lot of Korean-speaking white/black/hispanic people living in that country. Most non-Koreans living in the country are there temporarily and don't speak the language. It's a very ethnically homogeneous society. Same in most Asian countries. While many Asian countries have minority populations, they are generally other Asians (hill tribes in Thailand or Filipinos in Korea, for example). The average Westerner couldn't tell the difference between a Thai person and a Lisu person.

Since the U.S. is really a melting pot nation, I'd like to see more non-whites playing major roles in our films.
 
I am sure it was pointed out already, but the race of the kids in 21 - while not being as much of a crucial point as the race of MLK of course - was a rather important part of the book; it's repeated many times in the book that the reason they were getting away with it is because they didn't look like traditional card counters (bald white dorky/accountant looking men with glasses, or similar stereotypes), and because they could look like wealthy kids 'sons of' that it was more believable they would start randomly to put huge amounts of money on their bets.
 
I wanted to refresh the topic by asking here if anyone thinks that Asians may be aiming too high at this particular juncture. Sure, it would be cool to have an Asian equivalent to a George Clooney or Julia Roberts. But I just don't think that's possible right out the gate, hard pill as it may be to swallow.

I'm Korean American, and raised from a caucasian household. And while I am a film enthusiast, much of my knowledge in film covers the 1960's to present. I love actors and their performances, but my love is predicated on the performances of the actors rather than their cult of personality or prominence. I guess what I'm saying is that we don't even have our John Goodman, Toby Jones, or Laura Dern equivalents. Hollywood never seems to bother to pay attention to asian character actors, which I think should be the strategic nucleus in building around an asian George Clooney, for example.

I see alot of problems in how the industry operates. As an asian, I don't particularly care for the kung-fu genre. Not that I find it offensive, it just doesn't appeal to my sensibilities, much in the way that American action films don't appeal to me, unless there's a compelling subtext behind it, like say.... Saving Private Ryan or The Dark Knight. As a film enthusiast who would like to see more asian depictions, it's not important that asian characters be depicted as absolute saints, or the numero uno villain. I liked Ken Watanabe's role in Batman Begins. It was a brief role, but a memorable one where he did a serviceable job in his role as R;as al Ghul's decoy. Would more walk-in roles for Asian actors be a more palatable solution. Some of the most compelling performances have come from bit parts, such as Dick York's performance as the John Scopes archetype in Inherit the Wind. Is it right to assume that Asian actors are so preoccupied with being Spencer Tracey or Frederick March that they may overlook the value in a third or even fourth tier role, such as Dick York's. Maybe I'm being obtuse, but do many Asian actors and advocates take on a more go for broke attitude in yearning roles? I personally would rather see more Asians as bit players in independent films than as prominent players in status quo genre projects like Star Trek, Fast and Furious, or crime scene procedurals like CSI. Outside of theatre, indy productions seem to be the more promising venue for Asians to flex their creative muscles. I really would like to see asians branch out from the martial arts arena. It's just redundant at this point. There will never be another Bruce Lee. Let's try to move on and look for a more down to earth, even rough on the edges personality, rather than the streamlined perfection that Lee represents.

On a side note, having never watched Japanese or Korean films, can anyone tell me if they produce compelling films on par with American films like Network, American Beauty, Almost Famous, etc..? Based on my own perception, I always assume there's always going to be a martial arts fight scene in it, or bullet time gun fight sequences in it. The only Japanese film I ever saw was Letters of Iwo Jima, which was an American production, directed by Clint Eastwood. Everything in that was low key and modest, which I really liked, despite it being foreign language. How do Japanese and Korean film enthusiasts view their cinema? Do they appreciate low key affair productions, or do they gravitate to the low calorie quotient because of how deeply engrained into their pop culture it is.
 

G.ZZZ

Member
Hollywood is even whitewashing white roles.

This. They're mostly offensively dumbing down everything to the lowest common denominator to appeal at the masses (which are still largely white, at least in the US). Americans are even remaking Europeans movies/fictions for the american audience. Here in Italy we've had a term to describe those american films with trite tropes that you can see at the theater every time since the '80 i believe.

The same shit is happening in every media outlet. Dumbing down things, common denominator everything. Games, movies, music, books. This isn't going to go away anytime soon sadly.
 
On a side note, having never watched Japanese or Korean films, can anyone tell me if they produce compelling films on par with American films like Network, American Beauty, Almost Famous, etc..? Based on my own perception, I always assume there's always going to be a martial arts fight scene in it, or bullet time gun fight sequences in it. The only Japanese film I ever saw was Letters of Iwo Jima, which was an American production, directed by Clint Eastwood. Everything in that was low key and modest, which I really liked, despite it being foreign language. How do Japanese and Korean film enthusiasts view their cinema? Do they appreciate low key affair productions, or do they gravitate to the low calorie quotient because of how deeply engrained into their pop culture it is.

Asian cinema already has directors that are considered masters of the genre (Akira Kurosawa, Yasujiro Ozu) or directors that will be considered masters one day (Wong Kar-wai, Park Chan-wook, Bong Joon-ho), if they aren't already.

I'm not sure how populist/escapist the cinema scene in Asian countries is, though.
 
Asian actors are apparently so poisonous to cinema that they don't even get to play the cartoon-ish evil ninja villain in a TMNT movie.


If I were an Asian actor, I'm not particularly sure that I'd feel slighted at losing out on the opportunity of landing the role, given the lack of depth in the character and it's subject matter. Michael Bay's directing it too. I'm not sure what else you could expect in such a production.
 

J. Man

Banned
Some ignorant posts up in this thread. But half of it is not Hollywood's fault.

The real problem lies in the INDIE scene. Indie filmmakers, most of the time (95 percent), will not cast Asian people. When they do, it's usually just the Asian girl for yellow fever reasons. If they do cast an Asian male, he's gay or not having sex.

Do not blame Hollywood. If the Indie scene got out of this "default white cast" shit then Hollywood would not have a problem finding an Asian-American male who speaks perfect English with past work and a resume. America is diverse and not 100% white.

Go watch Big Trouble in Little China directed by John Carpenter. That film had 3 Asian males who spoke perfect English. Two of them got the girl. What happened to US films after that? Kudos to John Carpenter.
 
Go watch Big Trouble in Little China directed by John Carpenter. That film had 3 Asian males who spoke perfect English. Two of them got the girl. What happened to US films after that? Kudos to John Carpenter.

Somewhat related: I think it was the lack of success that Big Trouble experienced that led John Carpenter to become disillusioned with Hollywood. One of my favorite movies.
 

Skinpop

Member
On a side note, having never watched Japanese or Korean films, can anyone tell me if they produce compelling films on par with American films like Network, American Beauty, Almost Famous, etc..? Based on my own perception, I always assume there's always going to be a martial arts fight scene in it, or bullet time gun fight sequences in it. The only Japanese film I ever saw was Letters of Iwo Jima, which was an American production, directed by Clint Eastwood. Everything in that was low key and modest, which I really liked, despite it being foreign language. How do Japanese and Korean film enthusiasts view their cinema? Do they appreciate low key affair productions, or do they gravitate to the low calorie quotient because of how deeply engrained into their pop culture it is.

You need to start watching japanese/korean movies asap. I'm not knowledgeable on korean directors(though I've watched a lot) but on the japanese side you can start by watching most if not everything made by kurosawa, ozu, miike, SABU(my personal favorite, a japanese Tarantino), masaki kobayashi, sono shion, "Beat" Takeshi Kitano. Their work cover most genres/styles and are just the tip of the iceberg of japanese film making. If you're interested I can write up a list of movies to start with(though I'm sure there are other gaffers who'd do a better job doing that).

In general I think japanese movies are quite slow paced/low though there's lots of variation.
I like korean movies as well but I think they often suffer from having a great start/premise but lack a satisfying resolution, though there are many masterpiece movies you definitely should see.
 

Wiktor

Member
Some ignorant posts up in this thread. But half of it is not Hollywood's fault.

The real problem lies in the INDIE scene. Indie filmmakers, most of the time (95 percent), will not cast Asian people. When they do, it's usually just the Asian girl for yellow fever reasons. If they do cast an Asian male, he's gay or not having sex.

Do not blame Hollywood. If the Indie scene got out of this "default white cast" shit then Hollywood would not have a problem finding an Asian-American male who speaks perfect English with past work and a resume. America is diverse and not 100% white.

r.
Yeah. I think you nailed it. Anyone expecting big hollywood studios to cast completly unknown actors just because they are asian is just plain silly. People don't start their careers in $100 mln dollars blockbusters. They need to first prove their worth in cheaper formats - indie movies or tv.
 

ishibear

is a goddamn bear
Ever since I saw Memoirs of a Geisha, I thought Ken Watanabe should be in more media. He's incredibly handsome <3

Hollywood saddens me.
 

see5harp

Member
Yeah. I think you nailed it. Anyone expecting big hollywood studios to cast completly unknown actors just because they are asian is just plain silly. People don't start their careers in $100 mln dollars blockbusters. They need to first prove their worth in cheaper formats - indie movies or tv.

You said the same thing in the thread about a Netflix series. People aren't asking for George Clooney roles LOL.
 
I don't approve of race bending in any case. I still don't like that they went with negro Fury in the Avengers films. Make new badass minority characters. Like Batwing, he's pretty cool.

I'm of mixed race myself, and it does get annoying seeing a lot of white people in films based on or adapted from stories about minorities/foreigners, but changing white characters into blacks/Asians/whatever isn't the answer either.

Get over it.

The Marvel Universe as it stands is 95% white as most of the popular characters were created in the 50's and in some cases earlier. It's very easy to flippantly respond "just make new characters!" however no new character would have the history and lineage involved, which is where the money lies in the first place.

Recent adaptations and switches have indicated that changing the race means next to nothing to anyone besides long time comic readers (and racists) , who no Hollywood exec will ever cater to since their money is guaranteed anyway. Nick Fury is black now. The most popular Lantern is John Stewart, featured prominently in the DCAU.

Asians, Latino's and Indians still get a raw deal in Hollywood. Unless the role calls for Kung fu, a scene in Mexico or a convenience store being robbed they are next to never represented. It's ridiculous, and if race bending is the only way to bring representation up to speed then rock on.
 

J. Man

Banned
Somewhat related: I think it was the lack of success that Big Trouble experienced that led John Carpenter to become disillusioned with Hollywood. One of my favorite movies.

It's definitely not because of the Asian actors. It's because the film is centered around Asian culture. That did not have mass appeal. I still don't see why white America hates Lo-Pan. I mean, seriously. It's fuckin' Lo-Pan.
 
If I were an Asian actor, I'm not particularly sure that I'd feel slighted at losing out on the opportunity of landing the role, given the lack of depth in the character and it's subject matter. Michael Bay's directing it too. I'm not sure what else you could expect in such a production.

I've seen Splinter and Shredder have depth to their characters, not to say this movie will give them that. They're both white men in this movie. Michael Bay is not directing it.
 
D

Deleted member 13876

Unconfirmed Member
Get over it.

The Marvel Universe as it stands is 95% white as most of the popular characters were created in the 50's and in some cases earlier. It's very easy to flippantly respond "just make new characters!" however no new character would have the history and lineage involved, which is where the money lies in the first place.

They are doing that though, but building a lineage take time. In the last decade we've gotten Amadeus Cho, Nico Minoru, Miles Morales, more gay and bisexual characters like Karolina Dean and Striker, a black Nick Fury and more focus on established characters like Luke Cage. What works against these new characters, especially the young ones is how slow they grow up because of the time scale thing, which relegates them mostly to the youth team books. It's not perfect, but there is at least an attempt to establish more diverse characters without it feeling gimmicky but it'll take time before the full brunt is felt.
 
I've seen Splinter and Shredder have depth to their characters, not to say this movie will give them that. They're both white men in this movie. Michael Bay is not directing it.

I don't know. The whole ninja genre is trite and cliche, much like the vast majority of action films depicting the American action film star. Aside from pop culture relevancy, I don't see any artistic or thought provoking appeal in TMNT.
 
Arguing with someone from two years ago...check dates people


Yeah. I think you nailed it. Anyone expecting big hollywood studios to cast completly unknown actors just because they are asian is just plain silly. People don't start their careers in $100 mln dollars blockbusters. They need to first prove their worth in cheaper formats - indie movies or tv.

There are plenty of no-names that get cast without having "proven their worth" in anything, with the possible exception of an audition.
 

ISOM

Member
Let's be a little honest asians need to get together and make their own films and tv shows that appeal to them and don't wait for white people to do it for them like an asian tyler perry. Look at African Americans, they have created many movies and shows for their audiences, it's not realistic to wait for other races to cater to your race. At least not in the times we are living in.
 

Valhelm

contribute something
Let's be a little honest asians need to get together and make their own films and tv shows that appeal to them and don't wait for white people to do it for them like an asian tyler perry. Look at African Americans, they have created many movies and shows for their audiences, it's not realistic to wait for other races to cater to your race. At least not in the times we are living in.

Compare the size of the Asian American community to the size of the African American community. There's much less money to be made in Asian-centric movies, so film studies (which already have very few Asians involved) are unwilling to cater to Asian audiences.
 

ISOM

Member
Compare the size of the Asian American community to the size of the African American community. There's much less money to be made in Asian-centric movies, so film studies (which already have very few Asians involved) are unwilling to cater to Asian audiences.

Exactly which is another problem in itself why there are so few asian stars.
 
I don't know. The whole ninja genre is trite and cliche, much like the vast majority of action films depicting the American action film star. Aside from pop culture relevancy, I don't see any artistic or thought provoking appeal in TMNT.

That's because the portrayal of ninja is so unimaginative, uninspired, and completely inaccurate. I don't care about losing that BS from TMNT and in fact, I'm glad they gave Leo the right swords instead of those stupid straight NEENJA SWORDS.

/minirant
 
Compare the size of the Asian American community to the size of the African American community. There's much less money to be made in Asian-centric movies, so film studies (which already have very few Asians involved) are unwilling to cater to Asian audiences.

Lets be honest here. African americans only make up about 12 perceby of the us. Asians are 5 percent. There isnt thay many more blackd to make a statement like that
 

Pau

Member
They are doing that though, but building a lineage take time. In the last decade we've gotten Amadeus Cho, Nico Minoru, Miles Morales, more gay and bisexual characters like Karolina Dean and Striker, a black Nick Fury and more focus on established characters like Luke Cage. What works against these new characters, especially the young ones is how slow they grow up because of the time scale thing, which relegates them mostly to the youth team books. It's not perfect, but there is at least an attempt to establish more diverse characters without it feeling gimmicky but it'll take time before the full brunt is felt.
It should probably be noted that for The Runaways film that was going to be made, the original casting call for Nico did not mention her race. I wonder if having a superhero cast of: 1) black boy 2) japanese girl 3) overweight girl 4) young, non-sexualized girl and more girls than boys led to Marvel ultimately canning the film.
 
It should probably be noted that for The Runaways film that was going to be made, the original casting call for Nico did not mention her race. I wonder if having a superhero cast of: 1) black boy 2) japanese girl 3) overweight girl 4) young, non-sexualized girl and more girls than boys led to Marvel ultimately canning the film.

They were going to make a Runaways movie and junked it?

:(
 
I believe a better title for this thread would be "Is Hollywood 'Whitewashing' Non-white roles?" This will be part of the reason why the Akira and Ghost in the Shell live-action films will suck.
 
From the other thread:

Well, to be fair, he's always been Oroku Saki, a Japanese man. I'll assume this is what each of those points is referring to:

worm - started as a Oroku Saki, died, resurrected using worms.
alien - Utrom in an Oroku Saki shell.
Kevin Nash - Oroku Saki, needed a big guy to be the physical form of Super Shredder.
new movie - Eric Sachs, a white man.
 

Aiustis

Member
I had a laugh about All You Need is Kill a while back when I was at the library and noticed it said 'soon to be a major motion picture staring Tom Cruise'.
 
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