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[BennyBlanco]

bring back this guy just so more people take photos of him to fill up my reaction images folder

 

[haxamin]

The whole government review of pension age really made me think about it, but is the current government doing all of these vile things because they know the opposition is completely toothless? For as awful as the government is now the fact they're still leading in polling compared to Labour shows just how incompetent Labour is right now.

I said this in the UK poligaf thread, but I'd rather have a competent leader who'd be able to slap Cameron around in the House of Commons than someone ideologically pure like Corbyn who can't do shit.

I too assume that the Conservatives are inherently evil...

Spoiler

neogaf.gif

 

[dh4niel]

I'll always vote Labour and I like Corbyn but I agree the guy lacks charisma. Cameron makes up for that by being a massive cunt, which somehow works.

 

[JesseEwiak]

100% this. Labour is being disrespectful and anti democratic. They are not following the will of their own voters. Why should they? Their master Blair showed them the way.

Sadly, this is all down the remnants of Blair stealing the soul of the party, and even till this day, hanging around, making racist comments worse than UKIP and the Tories.

The rest of Labour are throwing a hissy fit. Corbyn has a chance of beating the Tories, but only if his party, whose voters have chosen Corbyn, aid him, instead of spiting him by making the Labour party lose on purpose. This is what we are seeing here. Labour politicians loyal to Blair, deciding they will make Labour lose, because New Labours politics mirrors the Tory party, not the progressive, peaceful, and hopeful politics of Corbyn.

Blair poisoned the heart of Labour, Coryn is the antidote. Without him, it makes no difference which party leads. Post Miliband loss, the rest of Labour is so similar to Tory it's not even funny. There's genuinely no need for a Corbyn-less Labour party, because that's just the Tory party, with a different tie. Hell, even the current destruction and American takeover of the NHS was started by good old Tony Blair. The man more responsible than anyone else for the creation of ISIS. The man who till this day insists the Iraq War bears zero responsibility for the creation of ISIS.

What if bluntly there aren't enough people in the UK who agree with Jeremy Corbyn and the rest of the Labour Left's view of society? Would you rather be pure and allow Cameron and his successor to reign for the next decade and completely turn the UK into US-lite or actually compromise and find somebody who can appeal to swing voters?

The Democrat's in the 80's had the same problem and had to make the same decision - continue to nominate Walter Mondale types and lose 40-49 state landslides or nominate Bill Clinton and actually win an election or two.

 

[liquidtmd]

What if bluntly there aren't enough people in the UK who agree with Jeremy Corbyn and the rest of the Labour Left's view of society?

If the Labour party get their way, Corbyn as a voice and force won't be around at the election for us to find out - and that really bothers me about their mentality.

 

[WayneMorse]

I would have voted Labour if Corbyn was running for the last election, but I voted Green in a town where it didn't matter. I hope Corbyn sticks through the term and wins the election next time.

Like I said with the boundary changes Labour isn't winning an election until at least 2025 or 2030, it's not about winning it's about mounting an effective opposition.

And just because Corbyn does well with the party rank and file within Labour doesn't mean it'll translate into a wider base of support for the party. How will Labour manage to win back voters who saw the Tories as the "safe option" last May?

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

What if bluntly there aren't enough people in the UK who agree with Jeremy Corbyn and the rest of the Labour Left's view of society? Would you rather be pure and allow Cameron and his successor to reign for the next decade and completely turn the UK into US-lite or actually compromise and find somebody who can appeal to swing voters?

The Democrat's in the 80's had the same problem and had to make the same decision - continue to nominate Walter Mondale types and lose 40-49 state landslides or nominate Bill Clinton and actually win an election or two.

Again, who would you suggest?

 

[Coriolanus]

What if bluntly there aren't enough people in the UK who agree with Jeremy Corbyn and the rest of the Labour Left's view of society? Would you rather be pure and allow Cameron and his successor to reign for the next decade and completely turn the UK into US-lite or actually compromise and find somebody who can appeal to swing voters?

The Democrat's in the 80's had the same problem and had to make the same decision - continue to nominate Walter Mondale types and lose 40-49 state landslides or nominate Bill Clinton and actually win an election or two.

That might indeed be the case, but so far what you have is evidence of the contrary. Evidence that, bluntly, there simply aren't enough people that care about voting for a Labour that tries to play the mid. Thus the loss.

Plus stuff like this

For those who assert that Labour’s left program cost it the 1983 election, it must follow that the party could have won had it moved right. We have test cases for this. Labour moved significantly rightwards for the 1987 election — and lost. It fought the 1992 election from a position still further to the right — and lost again.

It took until 1997 for the “modernizers” to be “proved” correct, and only once the Tories had been stripped of all credibility by the ERM debacle, endless scandals, infighting, and John Major.

 

[WayneMorse]

Again, who would you suggest?

I said Umunna in uk poligaf

 

[Charles Brandon]

The guy who won the most Labour votes is unelectable? The most popular Labour leader is unelectable?

He has energised long lapsed Labour areas. Here's the truth, the Blairites are the ones that are unelectable, because they are all Tory-lite. There is literally no point of new Labour, of anyone Labour outside of a few people like Corbyn.

This is why no one supported the other candidates, because they are astonishingly similar to the Tory party. Like I said, why would anyone bother voting for Labour if they are spouting 95% of the same things as Tory are?

Whether or not Corbyn will win, he's the only person the reflects the politics of actual Labour voters. Frankly, I find it baffling to claim the most popular politician of the a certain party is its most unelectable. Kinda an oxymoron.

he got votes from labour members. that's a tiny percentage of the people who might vote for him in an election. he'd anathema to the centre. he has no chance. zero. he's a fucking joke. I'm a lifelong labour voter btw.

 

[Famassu]

I dunno, Britain is a utopian nightmare. A bought and paid for country, by special interests. In America, this is shameful, allowing money and politics to mix. But in Britain, its not hidden. We proudly mix money, class and politics. In America, their leaders can come from any walk of life. Over here, you have to be part of the white Eton class.

Do we live in the same reality? US is absolutely about money buying politics, excessively so. Most of the people deciding about things are rich white men, being influenced by lobbyist with money to spend.

 

[Zvonimir Boban]

Nah, replace the Labour MPs who would rather be Tory-lite than listen to the demands of their party members.

 

[beato_angelico]

That might indeed be the case, but so far what you have is evidence of the contrary. Evidence that, bluntly, there simply aren't enough people that care about voting for a Labour that tries to play the mid. Thus the loss.

Plus stuff like this

that's not "evidence".

 

[Charles Brandon]

Nah, replace the Labour MPs who would rather be Tory-lite than listen to the demands of their party members.

the party members are fucking idiots

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

I said Umunna in uk poligaf

Umunna dropped out of the leadership contest after four days, why do you think he could handle the pressure of being the leader, let alone want to invite it?

Also to the people saying that there's no effective opposition, an opposition has to fucking oppose to be effective. There were multiple times in the leadership contest last year where the other candidates were just spouting Tory arguments, that's not an opposition, that's capitulation. That just means the Tories can push further right, and we'll end up more in the shit.

 

[Captain Chaos]

I wanted him to succeed but he is weak. He is getting nowhere, he is not yet providing effective opposition, he cant even sort his own party out.

Sack him and get David Miliband in.

 

[WayneMorse]

Umunna dropped out of the leadership contest after four days, why do you think he could handle the pressure of being the leader, let alone want to invite it?

Also to the people saying that there's no effective opposition, an opposition has to fucking oppose to be effective. There were multiple times in the leadership contest last year where the other candidates were just spouting Tory arguments, that's not an opposition, that's capitulation. That just means the Tories can push further right, and we'll end up more in the shit.

I realize that, and I'm not saying Ummuna would be perfect but he does seem to have a keen interest in retaining Labour support from ethnic groups which I think will be key in the future.

And being an effective opposition goes further than just staking out positions against the government, it's about being an electoral threat as well. Why should Dave and Gideon or the Quiet Man give two shits about what Corbyn says about them when they know they're gonna win the next election?

 

[Coriolanus]

that's not "evidence".

Feel free to read "cases" with your mind's eye.

 

[hohoXD123]

But what good is being something other than a 'tory lite' if as opposition you are ineffective and come the election, you are unelectable.

To 'win' a general election, Labour need to win in places like Basildon and hold other seats such as Hove. Corbyn will get you stomped in both guaranteed. There really is no point in energizing the Labour base when they largely live in seats the tories would never challenge in anyway.

Especially as the next boundry change is most likely to favour the tories, as their safe seats are high populations. Labour mostly hold the smaller population areas. Even out the seats for a more even spread, you would be looking at around 20 seats changing from Labour to the tories

How can you be an effective opposition in the first place if you are just offering a slightly lite version of the Tories?

What if bluntly there aren't enough people in the UK who agree with Jeremy Corbyn and the rest of the Labour Left's view of society? Would you rather be pure and allow Cameron and his successor to reign for the next decade and completely turn the UK into US-lite or actually compromise and find somebody who can appeal to swing voters?

The Democrat's in the 80's had the same problem and had to make the same decision - continue to nominate Walter Mondale types and lose 40-49 state landslides or nominate Bill Clinton and actually win an election or two.

Like who exactly? Tony Blair? He didn't try to make the UK into a US-lite at all...

 

[Linkstrikesback]

Corbyn is literally unelectable. He needs to go. Anything else is just delaying the inevitable. He may have the support of the members but the PLP despise him and a huge chunk of labour voters won't vote for him.

Elected leader of the labour party unelectable.

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't an onion article with that headline.

 

[Jezbollah]

Elected leader of the labour party unelectable.

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't an onion article with that headline.

Being elected by the members of the Labour party is somewhat different than being elected by the general public.

I'll give you the last leader as an example.

 

[JesseEwiak]

How can you be an effective opposition in the first place if you are just offering a slightly lite version of the Tories?

Because that's what the populace wants.

The DNC had to learn the same thing here in America in the 90's - the populace didn't want higher taxes or new social welfare programs, even if I personally did.

Elected leader of the labour party unelectable.

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't an onion article with that headline.

500k votes in the Labor leadership election vs 30 million votes in a UK election.

 

[kmag]

I said Umunna in uk poligaf

It's pretty obvious that someone in the press has something on him which spooked him out of the prior leadership contest. He's never going to be leader.

 

[Charles Brandon]

Elected leader of the labour party unelectable.

I'd be very surprised if there wasn't an onion article with that headline.

He wasn't elected as leader by the general electorate, he was elected by the party membership with help from hard-left nutters and right wing trolls, none of whom have ever voted Labour and who joined the party for £3 immediately prior to the election.

The whole thing is a mess.

 

[Coriolanus]

500k votes in the Labor leadership election vs 30 million votes in a UK election.

At which point one must also factor that the alternatives got considerably less than even that.

 

[hohoXD123]

Because that's what the populace wants.

The DNC had to learn the same thing here in America in the 90's - the populace didn't want higher taxes or new social welfare programs, even if I personally did.



500k votes in the Labor leadership election vs 30 million votes in a UK election.

I would think the populace would want the choice of a range of different parties to choose from rather than two very similar parties. Until we actually get an electoral system which isn't shit, it's pretty much on Labour to offer an alternative to the Tories.

 

[beato_angelico]

Like who exactly? Tony Blair? He didn't try to make the UK into a US-lite at all...

blair did that?

 

[Charles Brandon]

At which point one must also factor that the alternatives got considerably less than even that.

But they would have got considerably more in the general election. Even if none of the alternatives were especially compelling.

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

He wasn't elected as leader by the general electorate, he was elected by the party membership with help from hard-left nutters and right wing trolls, none of whom have ever voted Labour and who joined the party for £3 immediately prior to the election.

The whole thing is a mess.

121k/245k Labour members

That is just under half the fully paid membership

Don't perpetuate that bullshit because it's a fucking lie

 

[Real Hero]

Because that's what the populace wants.

The DNC had to learn the same thing here in America in the 90's - the populace didn't want higher taxes or new social welfare programs, even if I personally did

Labour should be spending the next five years convincing people they wrong then. They shouldn't be morphing to a Tory narrative because people can just vote tory for if they want that

 

[JesseEwiak]

At which point one must also factor that the alternatives got considerably less than even that.

Sure, but getting the wacky system Labor used before didn't stop therm from winning elections before or the system the Conservatives used didn't stop them from winning a majority.

I would think the populace would want the choice of a range of different parties to choose from rather than two very similar parties. Until we actually get an electoral system which isn't shit, it's pretty much on Labour to offer an alternative to the Tories.

The thing is, Labour did offer an alternative in the last election. It was just a center-left alternative versus a hard-left alternative. I think the next 5-10 years will show that there is a difference between the Tories and the "Tory-lite" Labour party.

Right now, a lot of people, like many Ted Cruz or Donald Trump fans are arguing on this side of the pond, that a center-right leader (Romney) who lost must replaced with a even more strident feature to win a general election.

 

[Messofanego]

Why would anyone vote Labour if you replace Corbyn with Tory clones? Pretty boring race, that would be.

 

[beato_angelico]

121k/245k Labour members

That is just under half the fully paid membership

Don't perpetuate that bullshit because it's a fucking lie

it's still a miserable number. the primaries in 2013 for the leadership of the main centre left party in italy got 2.8 million voters.

 

[Charles Brandon]

I would think the populace would want the choice of a range of different parties to choose from rather than two very similar parties. Until we actually get an electoral system which isn't shit, it's pretty much on Labour to offer an alternative to the Tories.

That's where you're wrong. Britain is a centrist country. No one wants a blinkered demagogue as the opposition. They want a centre left party and a centre right party. Miliband didn't lose because of his politics, he lost because he's a mealy-mouthed weakling.

 

[Izuna]

He is a moron

Edit: Nvm, I don't have any idea who could replace him.

 

[Charles Brandon]

121k/245k Labour members

That is just under half the fully paid membership

Don't perpetuate that bullshit because it's a fucking lie

what's a lie?

 

[Coriolanus]

But they would have got considerably more in the general election. Even if none of the alternatives were especially compelling.

Considerably more isn't enough. You need a win. And there is no evidence whatsoever that those sorry fucks couldve secured that.


They wouldve made it much easier for labour to delude itself about its chances, however. In that point, Corbyn is of... some... benefit, given that everybody is painfully fucking aware of how tough the road ahead will be.

Sure, but getting the wacky system Labor used before didn't stop therm from winning elections before or the system the Conservatives used didn't stop them from winning a majority.

It also didnt prevent them from losing, so... ?

 

[RobotNinjaHornets]

what's a lie?

That it was the help of "hard-left nutters and right wing trolls" that won it, he would've won anyway

 

[Kathian]

Was against all those people attacking him over his leadership; anyone should be given a chance but he's an utter disaster and waste of space and energy. He has no idea how to run a party and hardlycares about constituents other than his own.

He can't even focus on one thing. Hes got to always have a view and just can't stand on a single message. How does his party stay on message when be is unable to.

Anyone who thinks he's better than Miliband at holding the government to account is bonkers. Miliband went after and scalped big officials whilst Corbyn refuses to make strides on any issue.

The rest of the leadership contenders wouldn't fare much better. The Blarities have forgotten that Blair was nothing without Prescott by his side (as well as many others).

 

[Charles Brandon]

That it was the help of "hard-left nutters and right wing trolls" that won it, he would've won anyway

I didn't say that it was their help that won it, I said he won with their help, which he did.

I have already said that the party membership are fucking idiots.

 

[Empty]

well he's still very popular with the labour membership and any replacement will be of similar colours and miles away from what's needed to form another labour government, though at least mcconnell would be a better economic populist ala sanders than the lifeless and irrelevant corbyn.

it's really hard to overstate how bad corbyn is. you're not expecting him to slap cameron around like blair constantly did to the last tory leader with a slim majority that's in civil war over uk's role in europe, but he could at least try and change the national conversation onto genuine left wing issues and shift opinion to the left. what else is the point of electing someone unelectable, instead he faffs around with his pet issues from the eighties and internal squabbling. who fucking cares about the falklands and the labour nec. he didn't want to be leader and you can tell.

 

[JesseEwiak]

Why would anyone vote Republican if you replace Trump with Democrat clones? Pretty boring race, that would be.

See how this works?

 

[Pandy]

That's where you're wrong. Britain is a centrist country. No one wants a blinkered demagogue as the opposition. They want a centre left party and a centre right party. Miliband didn't lose because of his politics, he lost because he's a mealy-mouthed weakling.

lol

For many years there has been no left-of-centre party in England. Corbyn is at least trying to correct that.

 

[phisheep]

In America, their leaders can come from any walk of life. Over here, you have to be part of the white Eton class.

I don't think so.

Take John Major, son of a music-hall performer, left school at 16 with three O-levels. Or Margaret Thatcher, daughter of a shopkeeper. Or Harold Wilson, son of a chemist and a schoolteacher. Or Callaghan, or Heath, or whoever.

We've had a pretty varied bunch really.

 

[PJV3]

No, i'm happy with him mostly.
I would be more up for compromise if the shitty electoral system could be scrapped, and the long overdue political realignment finally took place.

I would tolerate Tristram "John Lewis people" Hunt if that was on offer.

 

[8bit]

Not sure who could take his place, the other candidates at the time of election were mostly useless and Action Dan isn't interested right now. Conservatives are in charge for the interim and Labour really need to figure out who they are, whether that's one party with a genuine left leaning leader that is divisive or a split they're probably better doing some much needed soul searching for the next couple of years.

 

[Charles Brandon]

I don't understand...do you think he will win an election? Do you think he is taking the tories to task? Or is it just that you agree with him?

 

[Sheentak]

I don't think so.

Take John Major, son of a music-hall performer, left school at 16 with three O-levels. Or Margaret Thatcher, daughter of a shopkeeper. Or Harold Wilson, son of a chemist and a schoolteacher. Or Callaghan, or Heath, or whoever.

We've had a pretty varied bunch really.

All went to grammar schools which do not exist anymore.

 

[Royal_Phalanx]

That's where you're wrong. Britain is a centrist country. No one wants a blinkered demagogue as the opposition. They want a centre left party and a centre right party. Miliband didn't lose because of his politics, he lost because he's a mealy-mouthed weakling.

Lol, Britain is the most right wing country in Europe. It pretty much is USA-lite in terms of social policy now.

 

[Charles Brandon]

...because the opposition is fucked