The problem with politics is the people who are good at it.
I'd rather have a parliament stuffed with Corbyns than Camerons, whatever their views happened to be, but the wider electorate seems to prefer the opposite.
Is it time for Jeremy Corbyn to be replaced?
- Thread starter WayneMorse
- Start date
- Status
The problem with politics is the people who are good at it.
I'd rather have a parliament stuffed with Corbyns than Camerons, whatever their views happened to be, but the wider electorate seems to prefer the opposite.
Rktk
Member
The Conservative government are doing all the shit they can because they have a majority, free from the shackles of the Lib Dems, who are utterly devestated as a party. As far as electibility there were the victories for Labour at the end of last year, next test will be London Mayor.
Let's be fair to Cameron here - he isn't into fucking pigs, he's simply willing to fuck a pig if it will get him more contacts and closer to power.
Do we really want that kind of person in control over our country? Someone willing to violate a pig in order to gain leverage?
(That's what I was going for, I think my way is actually worse)
So, what do you think the political reality is in this situation?
Mac@NeoGAF
Banned
The reality is Labour will suffer its worst ever election defeat in 2020, Corbyn & co will resign and Labour will elect another Blair type figure anyway, because like it or not, in 21st century Britain, you will only win power from the centre.
By 2025 we will have had a wasted 15yrs of navel gazing and student union protest politics from Labour and a betrayal of those most in need of a Labour government, offering up a candidate with no chance of winning is not a real choice, its just cowardice.
If Corbyn supporters really believe a terrorist sympathising, unilateral disarmer candidate stands a cat in hells chance of being elected, they need to go home, take their clothes off and pull their heads out of their arses and stop talking the kind of naive shit that only fellow believers agree with.
CyclopsRock
Member
I'm sure you would, but you're not going to get it. That was basically my point - the only difference between pressure groups and politicians is that the latter try to achieve power. If you're ineffective at that then you're basically just a professional one-man pressure group. "Being good at politics" isn't something dirty - you can be both good at politics and hold non-center opinions.
Why do you think that only a centrist candidate has a chance of being elected? Given that the Tories are not particularly centrist and they're in power.
Royal_Phalanx
Member
What has Tony Blair done for those who really needed a Labour government? Not a great supporter of Corbyn, I think he's just not good at politics, and unfortunately you have to play the game to win.
What a load of nonsense. My guess is we'll suffer another recession or major contraction before then, and things will get uglier for the Conservatives. Corbyn just has to muscle it through. That's not to say I think he'll win, but the dynamics in 2020 are likely to be very different to the dynamics today.
Mac@NeoGAF
Banned
Compared to previous Tory governments they are very much of the centre, much of what Cameron has done wouldn't have been given the time of day by previous Tory administrations.
Minimum wage, biggest ever drop in child poverty, tax credits, record spending on NHS, there was plenty done, but the hatred that the Iraq war inspires blinds everyone to the achievements.
industrian
will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
The next test for Labour will be the very real possibility of being overtaken by the Tories in Scotland.
And a lot of what they're doing was just a pipe dream that's only been enabled by a gradual drift rightwards by the Labour party in the years since the Tories left power in '97.
Mac@NeoGAF
Banned
So they meet in the centre, and the party that stays there, stays in power.
Okay, but the centre at the moment is right wing by most standards. Left-pragmatism is a failure.
Charles Brandon
Member
the centre is the centre
The centre can be left or right-wing. The centre in the UK at the moment is obviously centre-right.
Charles Brandon
Member
I'm not sure that makes any sense. The centre is place where left becomes right. The gov't at the moment is right of centre. The last gov't was left of centre. But the centre is still the centre.
The centre is relative to the country's political discourse. When a country shifts right relative to the rest of the world then their centre is centre-right.
Of course it makes sense. The centre in the UK at the moment involves a commitment to low government spending and belief that high budget deficits caused the global recession. Neither of those are centrist views.
Charles Brandon
Member
I'm just going to say I disagree and leave it at that
edit: No, they are right wing views because the Tories are a right wing party. Nevertheless they (the tories) are more centrist than in the past, across a range of issues. The centre is not a place that you can occupy and then subvert with your policies, it is simply a political space that can be occupied by parties on the left and the right with relatively moderate views, which is not to say that those parties would agree, just that their views are closer together than say, Karl Marx and Sarah Palin. It's a relative expression. The government does not define the centre but some of it's policies may fall into that space.
edit: No, they are right wing views because the Tories are a right wing party. Nevertheless they (the tories) are more centrist than in the past, across a range of issues. The centre is not a place that you can occupy and then subvert with your policies, it is simply a political space that can be occupied by parties on the left and the right with relatively moderate views, which is not to say that those parties would agree, just that their views are closer together than say, Karl Marx and Sarah Palin. It's a relative expression. The government does not define the centre but some of it's policies may fall into that space.
Who gives a shit about left/right and other outdated political models? Thousands of working class 'leftists' are voting for UKIP. Many 'leftist' people will vote for Boris Johnson if he (and he likely will) becomes Conservative leader because they know who he is. People will vote for politicians who are entirely opposed to their traditional political stance because they think in much more complex forms than left/right.
EDIT: And yes I am aware that I used left/right in an earlier post, that doesn't change my point
EDIT: And yes I am aware that I used left/right in an earlier post, that doesn't change my point
Are you familiar with the concept of the Overton window?
Succinct Verbosity
Member
Liberal Democrats aren't coming back for at least a decade. At least.
Mac@NeoGAF
Banned
Still pretending the SNP are left wing then..lol
They're nothing but Tories minus the posh English accent, which is all that matters in Scotland right now.
I agree, left/right are increasingly blunt tools for a complex political reality. Still, that doesn't change the fact that the currently acceptable range of political opinions at Westminster is lifted out of a Tory politician's bucket list circa 1982.
Wrestlemania
Banned
Great having you back, DeFiBkIlLeR. It did seem a bit strange for a while that we didn't have you popping up in these threads with your irrational SNP hatred.
hahahahahaha
B-B-Bomba!
Member
The greatest victory of the right, is convincing the left that it can't win, and needs to compromise. Instant division.
Integrity is standing on the side you truly would choose, and losing if you have to. There is no meaningful winning (for the left, imo) without this sort of integrity.
The right has no problem in this regard; the only question is just how much of a cunt can you get away with being. Europe would be the closest thing to a spiritual rift, but that only becomes a problem when the papers have nothing more interesting to cover.
Integrity is standing on the side you truly would choose, and losing if you have to. There is no meaningful winning (for the left, imo) without this sort of integrity.
The right has no problem in this regard; the only question is just how much of a cunt can you get away with being. Europe would be the closest thing to a spiritual rift, but that only becomes a problem when the papers have nothing more interesting to cover.
CyclopsRock
Member
It's the electorate that have convinced the left of this, isn't it? When was the last time the UK public voted for an outwardly left wing candidate? Callaghan? Even he didn't win a majority and lost the popular vote. Since then it's been Thatcher, New Labour and Davey boy. I don't think that's some right-wing trickery.
There's something to be said for - as godelsmetric keeps mentioning - moving the Overton Window to an area more useful to your views, and of reforming the party to make it better in the future. Is Corbyn doing that? Will Corbyn "losing if he has to" have a positive or negative impact on the Labour party's ability to get a left wing candidate elected? Do you think the party will say "Well, it didn't work this time, but how about we try again?" Or is it more likely to say "Well, I know he's not that popular because of all the war and messianic madness, but Blair did win elections and that helped us double funding for the NHS, double funding for schools, lower child poverty etc etc etc and surely that's better than another 5 years of the Tories?"
Obviously this assumes Labour have another Blair just sitting there waiting to be chosen, which isn't really the case (I know everyone loves Jarvis but he's obviously going to sit this round out - he doesn't want to be tarnished by association) but in the discussion of "I'd rather lose with integrity than win with compromise" argument, that's not that relevant.
peanutbutterlatte
Member
It upsets me but he will never, ever be Prime Minister. He's way too nice.
CyclopsRock
Member
Is this some sort of weird sarcasm from Paul Mason? What's happened with the Tories in the last week would have happened if Corbyn had been replaced at Christmas with a reindeer door stop.
Corbyn won overwhelmingly in the elections and he therefore has every right to be the leader. The plotting from centrists in the Labour Party is frankly pathetic and is more damaging than actually, you know, supporting your leader (unlike on Budget Day when Corbyn's pretty good response got little vocal support from his backbenchers).
And what's the alternative, run a vote of no confidence and have leadership contest? And then what if Corbyn wins again, do the Blairites and Brownites and whoever split and form another party like the SDP - which broke up and formed with the Liberals which met disaster at the last election.
What the whole IDS resignation should highlight is how this government is willing to cut, cut and cut more on the back of the poorest. I read a statistic before the budget that said the lowest fifth percentile is paying more of their gross income - 37.5% - on VAT and Income Tax then the richest fifth percentile at 35%.
And what's the alternative, run a vote of no confidence and have leadership contest? And then what if Corbyn wins again, do the Blairites and Brownites and whoever split and form another party like the SDP - which broke up and formed with the Liberals which met disaster at the last election.
What the whole IDS resignation should highlight is how this government is willing to cut, cut and cut more on the back of the poorest. I read a statistic before the budget that said the lowest fifth percentile is paying more of their gross income - 37.5% - on VAT and Income Tax then the richest fifth percentile at 35%.
I don't agree with all of his policies and l thought he was weak at the beginning, but l think he's growing into it and he's locking it down on Osbourne.
If he can get that MF to fall on his sword, he's gonna bounce like Blair in 1995.
His principles are good and he's honest. Not adjectives you normally associate with politicians so l say GO JEZZA!!!
If he can get that MF to fall on his sword, he's gonna bounce like Blair in 1995.
His principles are good and he's honest. Not adjectives you normally associate with politicians so l say GO JEZZA!!!
Meant to say he didn't!
Jezbollah
Member
No worries
but yeah Corbyn is now in such a good position to assert himself here. This week's PMQs should be a doozy.Always going to be the way, isn't it... Fucks up, he's a twat and should resign.
Involved in something good, nothing to do with him.
what's Corbyn been involved in? all I've seen is a "strongly worded letter" asking Osborne to resign
continued
"Tories just shot themselves in the foot.
I don't know how much the rest of you know about economics (I'm an expert), but honour and shame are huge parts of it. It's not like it is in America where you can become successful by being an asshole. If you screw doctors over in UK, you bring shame to yourself, and the only way to get rid of that shame is repentance.
What this means is the british public, after hearing about this, is not going to want to vote tory, nor will they even don the colour blue. This is HUGE. You can laugh all you want, but cameron has alienated an entire government with these moves.
Cameron, publicly apologize and resign or you can kiss your political career goodbye."
-Paul Mason, 'journalist'
Trickery? No. But it's not like overwhelming right-wing control of the media has absolutely nothing to do with it.
Indeed. The right wing has total control of the UK media. For anyone to suggest otherwise is hilarious. It's a very,very cozy relationship. It's also why Blair had a rather easy time of it. He knew how to court the likes of Lord Rothermere,Rupert Murdoch and the Barclay Brothers who between them control a huge swath of daily newspapers.
Their words, agendas and ideas are repeated over and over again until it sticks. I love how 'leftie' is now used as some sort of insult by a lot of people in political discussion. It was hugely apparent especially during the labour leadership vote how much the news focused on the use 'Left Wing' to describe Corbyn and yet the others in the vote were never referred to as right wing. So much of this stuff just passes off as normal that many people never notice.
It's why I laugh when the Tories and some of their supporters say the BBC has a bias towards them. Their news department certainly doesn't.
CyclopsRock
Member
But he didn't? This isn't like Miliband with Syria - he could legitimately claim to have mobilised an opposition to the government - or Tory, at least - desire to intervene. But here? Corbyn's not done anything.
If I take this to be your genuinely held belief - and obviously I do - then there is no evidence that could occur to convince you that the public simply don't desire the medicine that Jezza's prescribing, is there? Or that this desire comes from anything other than a brainwashing that you yourself have successfully sidestepped?
SuperBowser
Member
It's a little like the situation with Trump in America. Even if you Corbyn, there's no competent replacement.
At the very least, Corbyn has highlighted the uglier side of politics and I can appreciate that. He has stood true to his principles unlike the toothless Labour MPs he competed with. Maybe the Labour party will truly improve after this saga.
At the very least, Corbyn has highlighted the uglier side of politics and I can appreciate that. He has stood true to his principles unlike the toothless Labour MPs he competed with. Maybe the Labour party will truly improve after this saga.
It's Reyn Time!
Member
Did he say brainwashing?
Can the media be a manipulative tool?
Are the Daily Mail and Murdoch's rags some of the most heavily consumed sources of news in the UK?
Are they unbiased sources of information when it comes to political information?
Are these sources of news heavily affiliated with the Tory party?
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked