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[balladofwindfishes]

But that game has now created a mass of addicts who can't get enough of its gameplay, and they have no place to get their fix other than a game they must play on decade old hardware and CRT televisions.

There is still plenty of opportunity.

The only way would be doing a Dota 2 style game where it's a literal clone of the mechanics, without any of the original IP, with new stuff added unique to the new game.

People playing something for a decade and a half are not likely to want to relearn everything all over again.

 

[Revven]

Is it dumb, though? Why can't Melee be played concurrently with another title that changes up the formula or move it forward?

The impression that I get (which may be 100% wrong) is that the competitive Smash community doesn't even want to try something else along with Melee, as Melee is seen as the end all, be all of Smash.

Smash 4 is played alongside it, just that... it's different players. You won't see Mang0 or PPMD playing Smash 4, instead you'll see Nairo or... ZeRo. Very few Melee players play Smash 4. And the ones that do play it either are still learning the game or they play it less seriously than they do Melee. (note: I'm excluding M2K and some others in this)

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

The majority of these players got into Smash as kids because it was a fun, simple, game where Pikachu could beat up Mario.

The characters bring the players in, the mechanics are why those players became pros and stick around. Pros got their start playing Melee with their buddies after school because the characters were familiar and the game was easy to pick up and play.

Nobody can deny a major part of Smash Bros is its characters. Well I guess they can, but they'd be wrong. A game has to have a draw to bring players in. Had Melee released with generic characters it would probably have gotten a cult following, but it wouldn't have survived for a decade and a half.

I think that's definitely true of the first game, and it definitely has the imagine appeal for the masses, but I don't think that's what makes the game fun. No one had a clue what game and watch was before melee, but his character was so silly, that he's now become something that interests me.

Same thing for Wii Fit trainer, I mean people recognize it, but no one seemingly actively cares about said character.

Games like Star Fox 64, you really played as the Arwing, and fox had a box that he woulds sometimes speak in lol, I personally don't know many people who cared about the dialog.

But I think Smash is definitely greater than the sum of it's parts, and characters become cooler than they actually are by being in Smash. In a weird way, it's the game that creates my interest in the existing characters lol.

 

[rhandino]

I don't think that anyone want's to make a game for an audience that has refused to change from time to time because they are perfectly happy with what they got and there is not anything wrong with that tbh...

In other things, I really hope that Nintendo someday release a VC version of Melee because I found pictures like this:

incredible funny =P

 

[Mit-]

The only way would be doing a Dota 2 style game where it's a literal clone of the mechanics, without any of the original IP, with new stuff added unique to the new game.

People playing something for a decade and a half are not likely to want to relearn everything all over again.

And I believe that is exactly the kind of thing imagined by the OP.

Unfortunately there's likely no development team dedicated and competent enough to pull such a thing off.

 

[balladofwindfishes]

And I believe that is exactly the kind of thing imagined by the OP.

Unfortunately there's likely no development team dedicated and competent enough to pull such a thing off.

Also there's no legal way to pull it off. A company couldn't clone Melee with new characters and not get sued.

 

[Mit-]

Also there's no legal way to pull it off. A company couldn't clone Melee with new characters and not get sued.

I think that's debatable. Especially with it being an abandoned 15 year old game.

Surely there are some relative examples but I'm not certain of any off the top of my head.

 

[Shtof]

Definitely not in my opinion.

You are talking about tournament crazed super hardcore melee crowd that had a documentary made about them

You wont find a more suitable representation of hardcore purist than that.

This goes beyond the characters.

Yes, but it's a very niche genre without the characters. People come for the characters but stay for the gameplay.

 

[InfiniteCombo]

Smash 4 is played alongside it, just that... it's different players. You won't see Mang0 or PPMD playing Smash 4, instead you'll see Nairo or... ZeRo. Very few Melee players play Smash 4. And the ones that do play it either are still learning the game or they play it less seriously than they do Melee. (note: I'm excluding M2K and some others in this)

Maybe that's what I meant. Why don't the Melee pros try SSB4? Wouldn't that give Smash 4 more... credibility?

Daigo, Justin Wong, Alex Valle, PR Balrog, etc will play any (well, not quite) Street Fighter Capcom throws at them. Reputable, talented players that add credibility to whatever Street Fighter they're playing. Those players are not stuck on Super Turbo. But, hey, they still play Super Turbo.

I'm not attacking Melee players, I'm just trying to understand the mentality.

 

[ChronotriggerJM]

Yes, but it's a very niche genre without the characters. People come for the characters but stay for the gameplay.

I can definitely agree with that. I think the characters bring the masses, but those that stay for the mechanics could probably care less.

 

[MisterHero]

Smash 4 has the best roster to date and is the most fun when all options are available.

Melee was a perfect package for its time, but it is not everything.

 

[Red Hood]

You need the characters for it to really take off.
That's one of the big things about Smash

Yep. If they were some random characters I didn't know before, chances are I'd be playing it a lot less. It's just fun seeing your favourite game characters kicking each others asses. It's like the ultimate schoolground fight: "who's stronger, Mario or Link? DK or Fox?"

 

[Eidan]

Is it dumb, though? Why can't Melee be played concurrently with another title that changes up the formula or move it forward?

Super Turbo is awesome. Nothing really plays like it. But, in the late 90s, it was being played concurrently with Third Strike and Zero 3. But Zero 3 and Third Strike have something that HUGELY differentiate them from Super Turbo: custom combos and parrying, respectively. The Capcom FGC moved to Zero 3 and Third Strike, but didn't altogether move on from Super Turbo.

The impression that I get (which may be 100% wrong) is that the competitive Smash community doesn't even want to try something else along with Melee, as Melee is seen as the end all, be all of Smash.

That's my feeling as well. While other FGC can at least enjoy the old and the new, the Melee community seems unique in its disdain for ANY differences from Melee.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Smash 4 has the best roster to date and is the most fun when all options are available.

Melee was a perfect package for its time, but it is not everything.

I have played every game in the series and have only been disappointed by Brawl until PM hit.

I have a profound love for both Melee and Smash 4.

No its not melee but it has been enriching to play competitively and has gotten my blood pumping just as much as Melee did.

 

[likeGdid]

Maybe that's what I meant. Why don't the Melee pros try SSB4? Wouldn't that give Smash 4 more... credibility?

Daigo, Justin Wong, Alex Valle, PR Balrog, etc will play any (well, not quite) Street Fighter Capcom throws at them. Reputable, talented players that add credibility to whatever Street Fighter they're playing. Those players are not stuck on Super Turbo. But, hey, they still play Super Turbo.

I'm not attacking Melee players, I'm just trying to understand the mentality.

They probably have tried SSB4 (see: Mang0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaDiMYrDlpI)

but don't find it fun in a competitive setting. see: PPMD

MajinTenshinhan: Having not seen you competitively since EVO, personally, I feel like I have to ask - What's your opinion of Super Smash Bros. 4? Is this a game you would consider taking seriously, competitively, and why or why not?

EG|PPMD: I do not like Super Smash Bros. 4 on a competitive level. I find it shallow and that it rewards very basic strategies that do not allow for deeper interaction with an opponent, and I also feel that even combos are jammed or not so meaningful. I personally greatly enjoy deep, intense interaction and the ability to play at a variety of speeds and still be effective. I do not believe Smash 4 has that potential, unfortunately. It can be fine for those willing to learn very specific skillsets, but I think there is much greater reward in learning the depth of Melee.

 

[Malice215]

I don't get why people keep coming out now and saying the Melee needs replacing after all the work people put in to help grow the game and the audience for it.

Melee doesn't need replacing when it's been around for so long, Smash 4 is pretty big on it's on, and there's plenty of cases where newer games fail to replicate what made a particular old game magical, so just let people play what they love and are willing to support.

 

[DrROBschiz]

They probably have tried SSB4 (see: Mang0 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kaDiMYrDlpI)

but don't find it fun in a competitive setting. see: PPMD

I just cannot bring myself to agree with those guys at all. I know they are pretty much the best melee players in existence but the thrill and mind games continue on with my bitter rival in smash 4 just as they did in the melee days

 

[stan423321]

If I made a Melee clone that did not make what I consider improvements over Melee, chances are Melee players would keep playing Melee because there is no incentive to switch.

If I made improvements, though, I would need to persuade 70% or so of them they are improvements, and chances are it's impossible.

So, well.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

Wait, what? Really?

Yes. I'm not aware that it's been announced yet, though, so I'd consider the fact a public secret.

I don't really have any proof available to back up my claim, btw. I just happen to be a part of the same dev community as a PM dev who is already working on this new game.

 

[DrROBschiz]

If I made a Melee clone that did not make what I consider improvements over Melee, chances are Melee players would keep playing Melee because there is no incentive to switch.

If I made improvements, though, I would need to persuade 70% or so of them they are improvements, and chances are it's impossible.

So, well.

PM is the closest we are ever going to get to an updated Melee... so what if its not sanctioned or supported. Neither is Melee anymore

The community will cling to what it loves regardless and thats all that matters right?

 

[GamerJM]

I really disagree with the notion that if a game did come along that matched Melee in quality it would replace it. Because so far that hasn't happened. Smash 4 with heavy and fast on still has a lot less movement options, a lower skill ceiling, and heavily favors defensive play. Project M doesn't really feel as crisp, fast, or well-designed as Melee and has trouble growing to the levels that Melee did because it's a mod and there are legal issues that could pop up if it ever starts having Melee-sized nationals. Part of me honestly thinks that if PM in its current state released instead of Brawl as an official game, though, that people would have just moved on to that even if a lot of people wouldn't have liked it as much.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

That's my feeling as well. While other FGC can at least enjoy the old and the new, the Melee community seems unique in its disdain for ANY differences from Melee.

I don't think they're unique. It's just the melee portion of the community is so large that they can afford to separate and keep the competition alive. You have a community as long as people are willing to play and new people are willing to learn.

People say Street Fighter is different but the community did not move onto Street Fighter x Tekken from Street Fighter 4.

Similarly, in China KOF97 is huge today, even though there have been many newer games in the franchise.

 

[LordBaztion]

Warner should release a multiplatform smash clone with DC, TLotR, MK and others.

 

[likeGdid]

I just cannot bring myself to agree with those guys at all. I know they are pretty much the best melee players in existence but the thrill and mind games continue on with my bitter rival in smash 4 just as they did in the melee days

That's fine. Being pros doesn't make their preferences fact. It's great that you can find that same thrill in the sequels, but what some people loved about (competitive) melee, was the movement options, speed, etc. which they can't find in its sequels or really anywhere else.*

edit: whoops, except PM

 

[C.Olimar788]

It's really a shame PSASBR ended up so shit, because I really think there is a great market for a Smash-style fighter with a competitive focus. It's not about "replacing" Melee, but about going after its community - Nintendo's attempts at doing such result in things are archaic as not including changelogs. For me, personally, succeeding Melee is as simple as making a Smash-like game that isn't actively spitting on and dissuading competitive play. Smash 4 takes steps towards this, but then things like the poor implementation of "For Glory" mode and the utter botched opportunity that is roughly everything to do with Custom Moves just make it a mess.

I would love for an indie company to go and make a Smash-style fighter with proper fighting game competitive focus. It's not like it would need to be a crossover, either, as plenty of fighting games do just fine without being crossovers.

My personal video game wet dream would be Lab Zero taking on a Smash Bros., or at least an SSB-esque game. Imagine how beautiful that would be...

 

[Felix Andrews]

There was nothing wrong with Brawl.

 

[Xamtheking]

There was nothing wrong with Brawl.

You like tripping over flat surfaces?

 

[Tomohawk]

The only way would be doing a Dota 2 style game where it's a literal clone of the mechanics, without any of the original IP, with new stuff added unique to the new game.

People playing something for a decade and a half are not likely to want to relearn everything all over again.

I think you give competitive melee players too little credit. Melee isn't the only fighting game they play. Lots of long time veterans learn and pick up new games. This narrative that the melee community is some old man that can't move on is really tiresome and reeks of bias.

 

[DrROBschiz]

There was nothing wrong with Brawl.

There was mountains wrong with brawl and tripping was the tip of the iceberg

Brawl was a fuck you to competitive melee players

Smash 4 is that happy medium Olive branch

 

[Sephzilla]

If someone made a good replacement for Melee the audience still probably wouldn't abandon Melee

 

[JJDinomite]

I don't know what people expect. It's always been a party game series. Smash 4 is excellent.

 

[Anura]

I just cannot bring myself to agree with those guys at all. I know they are pretty much the best melee players in existence but the thrill and mind games continue on with my bitter rival in smash 4 just as they did in the melee days

Play 4 then. People will disagree that 4 is the same and that it gives them the same feel, but everybody's different and has their own preference.

Personally I think 4 isn't nearly as fun as Melee, mostly because those organic combos are downplayed to almost nothing in 4. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate 4 at all. In fact I think 4 is one of the best games to be released anywhere in a long time and I have a ton of fun with it. It's just not nearly as fun as melee is. This is coming from a girl who is much better at 4 than she is melee.

I also think the people who say melee fans hate new things because they're new should stop talking. No game has replaced melee playstyle yet. No official game has even TRIED.

 

[Spinluck]

Yes... Titanfall is the first game to scratch my Melee itch since Melee. It feels more like melee than Smash 4 and does so without even resembling a Super Smash Bros. game.

Melee is what it is because of how it feels to play it. Few games really feel that good.

:lol

Not even sure what I'm reading at this point. Anyway, Towerfall is fuckin' great.

 

[Orochinagis]

If someone made a good replacement for Melee the audience still probably wouldn't abandon Melee

And thats my impression for the melee comunity so far

 

[stan423321]

PM is the closest we are ever going to get to an updated Melee... so what if its not sanctioned or supported. Neither is Melee anymore

The community will cling to what it loves regardless and thats all that matters right?

PM is a special case in two ways. On one hand it's unsanctioned and stuff. On another, though, it was easily available to a lot of people and had the additional appeal of having certain built-in inheritance of IP from Melee by means of Brawl.

Anyway I don't really think that's a problem that needs to be solved, though perhaps Nintendo could capitalise on this situation in the future. Who knows, really.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Play 4 then. People will disagree that 4 is the same and that it gives them the same feel, but everybody's different and has their own preference.

Personally I think 4 isn't nearly as fun as Melee, mostly because those organic combos are downplayed to almost nothing in 4. Don't get me wrong, I don't hate 4 at all. In fact I think 4 is one of the best games to be released anywhere in a long time and I have a ton of fun with it. It's just not nearly as fun as melee is. This is coming from a girl who is much better at 4 than she is melee.

I also think the people who say melee fans hate new things because they're new should stop talking. No game has replaced melee playstyle yet. No official game has even TRIED.

I wont deny the obvious differences but I also find the melee crowd bizarrely dismissive which is a shame

Not sure why but it split the community in a way that makes me sad.

 

[copelandmaster]

Wow at 'SSB4 is a proper replacement, get over it and move on' posts. You know why that's not true and yet you try to hand wave it anyway.

So let's imagine the guys who created Project M decided to create their own fighter with the core of Melee intact. They could fund it via kickstarter, release it as a downloadable title, start advertising with PM and Smashboards. If they'd get the pros playtesting and supporting the game, it could definitely blow up fast and be played at all the regular Smash-venues.


If I was a pro-player in the Smash-community, I would've loved the concept of getting a game, made by similar players who cherishes your input and desires. Every Smash-game is basically a gamble if you're really invested in the competitive scene, and a different title would bypass this completely.

A Smash Melee style game made by fans -

That could be an outcome...for a hypothesized situation that, unfortunately, is currently not possible, nor feasible for a number of reasons (time, money, manpower, budget, etc.) none of which have anything to do with the Melee community's alleged insularity.

Even if such a game was feasible, it would not replace Melee. It would literally be Melee, and 'that other cool game that we also get hyped about and really really like'. Like Project M.

Yes, people might want this hypothetical game. Even die-hards who 'only play Melee'. Let's see how that Rivals game turns out, but other than that, proper alternatives to Melee are not really a thing.

Only Melee HD could replace Melee, unless it was Master Chief Collection-ed, or a port based off PAL Melee (lol).


On a 'sequel to Melee' - Some thing that can exist, and become improved and better than Melee and still be it's own game

As someone who likes Melee/PM and dislikes Brawl/SSB4 let me say this:

Project M is a game that I like, more than the original Melee. And a hellava lot more than awfulness of Brawl and the half-hearted, half-asssed compromised apology of SSB4.

But it is not a proper sequel to Melee because, other than some balance changes, it does not improve on the Melee formula, only emulates it from within another game with some tweaks here and there. The new characters and stages being added for 4.0 does not change this.

Brawl is not a sequel to Melee, it is an iteration on the basic concepts that make up 'Super Smash Bros.' SSB4 is a sequel to Brawl.

Nintendo has not made a proper replacement, and will continue do so, unless they stop making 'Super Smash Bros' games designed with the same mentalities as Brawl and SSB4.

Yes, people do want a proper sequel to Melee. Even die-hards 'who only play Melee'. We know it could be better, because things like Melee and PM already exist.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Wow at 'SSB4 is a proper replacement, get over it and move on' posts. You know why that's not true and yet you try to hand wave it anyway.




A Smash Melee style game made by fans -

That could be an outcome...for a hypothesized situation that, unfortunately, is currently not possible, nor feasible for a number of reasons (time, money, manpower, budget, etc.) none of which have anything to do with the Melee community's alleged insularity.

Even if such a game was feasible, it would not replace Melee. It would literally be Melee, and 'that other cool game that we also get hyped about and really really like'. Like Project M.

Yes, people do want this. Even die-hards who ' only play Melee'.

Only Melee HD could replace Melee, unless it was Master Chief Collection-ed, or a port based off PAL Melee (lol).


On a 'sequel to Melee' - Some thing that can exist, and become improved and better than Melee and still be it's own game

As someone who likes Melee/PM and dislikes Brawl/SSB4 let me say this:

Project M is a game that I like, more than the original Melee. And a hellava lot more than awfulness of Brawl and the half-hearted, half-asssed compromised apology of SSB4.

But it is not a proper sequel to Melee because, other than some balance changes, it does not improve on the Melee formula, only emulates it from within another game with some tweaks here and there. The new characters and stages being added for 4.0 does not change this.

Brawl is not a sequel to Melee, it is an iteration on the basic concepts that make up 'Super Smash Bros.' SSB4 is a sequel to Brawl.

Nintendo has not made a proper replacement, and will continue do so, unless they stop making 'Super Smash Bros' games designed with the same mentalities as Brawl and SSB4.

Yes, people do want this. Even die-hards 'who only Melee'.

Yeah I respectfully disagree and you are literally arguing amongst kindred spirits which saddens me more.

 

[Valnen]

why does it need replacing?

Because it's 480p.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Because it's 480p.

PM runs pretty good in dolphin

Best visuals youll get for a Melee style game

 

[Tomohawk]

I wont deny the obvious differences but I also find the melee crowd bizarrely dismissive which is a shame

Not sure why but it split the community in a way that makes me sad.

Some can seem that way, but that's because they care about the intricacies that the average person doesn't. I mean there are people in this thread who think psabr plays like melee. I'm not surprised melee players come off as dismissive when people don't understand what their talking about.

Anyways melee is arguably the second biggest fgc right now. There is definitely a market for a game that actually does a good job capturing the essence of melee.

 

[Deleted member 74300]

They can try to. However most of them fail at making the gameplay as good as any Smash Bros. Playstation Allstars is a good example of this. Basically only Nintendo can "replace" Smash Bros. with another one. Even though a group of people will always prefer Melee, all of them have been great. Who cares what those people think, let them be stuck in the past.

 

[EatinOlives]

The concept of a highly technical/competitive "Smash-like" game has very limited appeal. Hell, I'd say the concept of Smash Bros has limited appeal, since Smash Bros is the only series of its kind that has enjoyed large success. Of course, the "competitors" like PSABR just sucked as games in general, but even prior to the launch it was a fairly low-profile game and went under a lot of people's radars.

Smash has cemented itself as the only game that plays like Smash. Any other high-profile game that attempts to do the same is (understandably) met with skepticism, ie, "what do you have to offer that beats Smash?" And honestly, Smash is so good that it'll take a ton of resources for a competitor to get it up to that level, not to mention Smash fans probably just get their fill on Smash.

 

[DrROBschiz]

Some can seem that way, but that's because they care about the intricacies that the average person doesn't. I mean there are people in this thread who think psabr plays like melee. I'm not surprised melee players come off as dismissive when people don't understand what their talking about.

Anyways melee is arguably the second biggest fgc right now. There is definitely a market for a game that actually does a good job capturing the essence of melee.

Thats true

If any games deserves a remake/HD remaster...

Buts since its a series and all the support is going to smash 4..

I get the gist of the topic and feel for you guys. I played melee a LOT like most of ya. That game is irreplaceable honestly :/

Im torn since I empathize with Melee lovers and understand it but I also find Smash 4 to be just as compelling competitively though for different reasons I suppose.

 

[copelandmaster]

Yeah I respectfully disagree and you are literally arguing amongst kindred spirits which saddens me more.

Explain. It's a big post that took me like a half an hour to articulate, so the convo might've moved a bit while I was typing (and then re-typing, and editing once I realized that my post wasn't finished, lol).

 

[DrROBschiz]

Explain. It's a big post that took me like a half an hour to articulate, so the convo might've moved a bit while I was typing (and then re-typing, and editing once I realized that my post wasn't finished, lol).

I agree smash 4 isnt a replacement per se.

Its not melee but its also not some horrible half measure game compared to Melee.

Thats my disagreement.

 

[Spinosaurus]

Melee is its own beast. There's nothing like it, not even other Smash games, including Project M. There's also how the games have different playerbases.

I don't follow PM closely compared to Melee and Smash 4 but afaik more Brawl players moved to PM than Melee players. (Correct me if I'm wrong!)

 

[FUNKNOWN iXi]

Special Smash in SSB4 with Fast and Heavy settings is basically the same thing but with improved hit detection and general sandbox mechanics. People that praise Melee as the be-all-end-all Smash title and that nothing's ever lived up to it since are ridiculous. I mean, if you want something that plays like Melee, play Melee.

But 64 was the best.

 

[Timeaisis]

Nintendo has already replaced Melee. Twice.

if the melee players want a game that plays exactly like melee, they already have it. It's melee.

.

 

[sinxtanx]

It's always funny to see people say how Melee players can't move on.

Melee players DID move on. To Brawl. En masse.

The Melee scene basically died for about a year, and when it got super painfully obvious how shallow and shit Brawl was people moved back to Melee. Sm4sh mechanics builds upon Brawl so no shit competetive Melee players don't like it.

Nobody has to play a game they do not want to play.