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[Toxi]

I don't know why doesn't SF2 play like SF3 which doesn't play like SF4? Games change over time, Melee players are so averse to any kind of change so we get topics like these in spite of the superior Smash 4.

You're confusing new games appearing with games changing.

Why do some people still play Super Metroid and call it their favorite game when Metroid Fusion exists? Oh yeah, because they enjoy Super Metroid better. Same thing with Smash. Some people think Melee is a superior game, and they shouldn't have to stop playing it because there's a new game on the block (especially with how much the Melee scene is thriving 13 years after release).

 

[copelandmaster]

"Don't be close-minded of our close-mindedness". That's rich. And if the community did dismiss PAL version out of hand it would be an absurdity not because new is better, but because better is better. PAL fixes glitches, improves balance (let's not pretend space animals aren't OP). Do you think Bowser's down throw shouldn't damage G&W?

I agree, an HD version of the game should be based on 1.3 because of important game fixes. If this meant 1.3 or nothing, sure why not.

I guess parallels are something that can be overlooked, because facts are facts and 1.3 has the fixes.

If they were to say "no", that's their decision. I wouldn't call them close minded unless they had a an immediate knee-jerk reaction without trying the game at tournaments. Kinda like what the community as a whole entity did for brawl and what they are doing right now for SSB4.

Personally, if NA didn't get the japanese dub in the HD ver because of 1.3, I would reject the game outright. It would be an affront to my cultured sensibilities.

 

[Pavaloo]

Duck Game is pretty bad ass.

 

[likeGdid]

You're confusing new games appearing with games changing.

Why do some people still play Super Metroid and call it their favorite game when Metroid Fusion exists? Oh yeah, because they enjoy Super Metroid better. Same thing with Smash. Some people think Melee is a superior game, and they shouldn't have to stop playing it because there's a new game on the block (especially with how much the Melee scene is thriving 13 years after release).

It's weird. People don't say, "Super Metroid elitists hate Other M because they want to cling to their old game."

 

[chaosblade]

I have to wonder where Sakurai's conceit that casual players only like slow, floaty games came from.

In all fairness I don't think it's that "casual gamers like slow, floaty games," it's that a slower and floatier game is more accessible. The faster and heavier feel of Melee is more punishing if you are less familiar with it. With most characters it's very easy to die when you go off stage since they fall so quickly and the ledges aren't as easy to grab as the later games.

Accessibility is basically the cornerstone of Sakurai's game design philosophy, and in that regard Melee was a mistake. Sakurai himself said the game is "too difficult," and basically outright said he didn't intend to make a more hardcore fighting game like that again.

 

[Nvzman]

It's weird. People don't say, "Super Metroid elitists hate Other M because they want to cling to their old game."

Because Other M is shit and Smash 4 is actually a great game.
Besides Metroid is not competitive. The changes wouldn't bug people as much.

 

[Toxi]

In all fairness I don't think it's that "casual gamers like slow, floaty games," it's that a slower and floatier game is more accessible. The faster and heavier feel of Melee is more punishing if you are less familiar with it. With most characters it's very easy to die when you go off stage since they fall so quickly and the ledges aren't as easy to grab as the later games.

Accessibility is basically the cornerstone of Sakurai's game design philosophy, and in that regard Melee was a mistake. Sakurai himself said the game is "too difficult," and basically outright said he didn't intend to make a more hardcore fighting game like that again.

The weird part is that his "mistake" was the most successful game on the GameCube by far. I never heard about accessibility problems for Melee back when it came out.

 

[Nvzman]

The weird part is that his "mistake" was the most successful game on the GameCube by far. I never heard about accessibility problems for Melee back when it came out.

I don't think Sakurai could predict a fighting game community for Melee...

 

[Arttemis]

The weird part is that his "mistake" was the most successful game on the GameCube by far. I never heard about accessibility problems for Melee back when it came out.

Neither did I. In fact, I remember the year it came out, everyone in high school, including people who didn't play games, were saying they were the best at the game and could beat anyone with 'such and such' character. There is nothing inaccessible about picking up Melee and having a fantastic time.

Nothing about it should be considered a mistake, and I feel every move distancing the series from Melee is a mistake.

 

[Toxi]

I don't think Sakurai could predict a fighting game community for Melee...

That community was a tiny minority of the people who bought Melee. The game didn't just have competitive appeal, it had massive casual appeal. Every one of my friends played Melee.

 

[KDR_11k]

Frankly who'd risk making a melee clone when the demands of the community are so specific that you'd likely just make a single mistake and get shunned by everybody while success won't give you a whole lot? I doubt most devs even know what it is that the Melee players specifically demand from their game.

 

[Arttemis]

Frankly who'd risk making a melee clone when the demands of the community are so specific that you'd likely just make a single mistake and get shunned by everybody while success won't give you a whole lot? I doubt most devs even know what it is that the Melee players specifically demand from their game.

Isn't that exactly what a bunch of people did with Project M?

 

[Lazulic]

The weird part is that his "mistake" was the most successful game on the GameCube by far. I never heard about accessibility problems for Melee back when it came out.

me either, it was my friend's game of choice since its release. we were 6. not once did i ever think about it being too hard

its part of why i consider it my favorite game of all time. i still play it to this day, casually with friends. with time, it's somehow only gotten bigger, better, and more entertaining.

 

[chaosblade]

Isn't that exactly what a bunch of people did with Project M?

Project M is made by competitive Melee fans/players, specifically the sort of people who understand what (most of) the Melee community would want.

The weird part is that his "mistake" was the most successful game on the GameCube by far. I never heard about accessibility problems for Melee back when it came out.

I didn't either, but after looking back apparently the game did get some criticism. Wikipedia mentions that the game got criticism for it's sensitivity/responsiveness, something that a lot of players actually praise over the other games in the series.

The changes from SSBM seemed to be big enough that the Melee scene is still robust (and growing?) while most people in the Brawl scene transitioned to Smash 4.

Certainly growing, Apex 2015 was the biggest Melee tournament ever (and would have been even bigger if not for an entrant cap) and Evo 2015 is set to surpass it.

 

[likeGdid]

Because Other M is shit and Smash 4 is actually a great game.
Besides Metroid is not competitive. The changes wouldn't bug people as much.

Whoa, not my intention to call Smash 4 the Other M of smashes. That wouldn't be a very nice thing to say

Spoiler

Sorry to Other M fans

.

It's just that I wonder at what point can one not enjoy a sequel to a game because of its changes AND not be considered "clinging to the past."

The changes from SSBM seemed to be big enough that the Melee scene is still robust (and growing?) while most people in the Brawl scene transitioned to Smash 4.

 

[KDR_11k]

Isn't that exactly what a bunch of people did with Project M?

It's a free mod, not exactly as big of a risk as developing a new game from scratch and trying to sell it.

 

[BlackJace]

Smash 4 is quickly becoming superior to Melee in my eyes. Melee's like my second favorite game of all time. Hundreds if not a thousand hours put into it.

Brawl was an obvious hiccup.

I dunno, these topics are weird. I love Melee, and currently, I'm loving Smash 4. Many of the matches I've had online have really thrown me back in the Melee days.

The two can thrive. Let Melee dudes play Melee, and everyone else plays what they like. As much as I like the game, Smash 4 ain't Melee. It's the closest we've gotten, but it ain't it.

A lot of my Melee buddies openly play the two. If they want the Melee itch scratched, they pop in Melee, otherwise we roll with Smash 4.

No reason the Smash community can't do the same.

 

[curlyfriski]

Street Fighter x Tekken is a drastically different game that was never meant to replace Street Fighter IV. It also has the misfortune of being considered a poor game.

As for KOF97's enduring popularity in China, I don't recall that ever being at a detriment to successive games. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not as aware of China's FGC as I am the US or Japan.

Melee's community, as far as I can tell, is fairly unique in its venom for other titles in the series. It's really kind of interesting. Whereas other FGCs seem fully capable of adapting to changes in the series, changes in the Smash Bros. formula, from character speed, to the removal of exploits and glitches, are enough, in these people's eyes, to make Smash Bros. an uninteresting game to play or watch. It's fascinating.

A lot of it has to do with Brawl, imo. When Brawl came out, a lot of players switched over from Melee to the newer game like you would see in a typical fighting game franchise. It got more tournament entrants for a good while and Melee seemed to be in the process of dying. Brawl had a ton of issues as a competitive game, however, from extreme imbalance to overly defensive play to high levels of jank. It seemed to many players that Sakurai had designed it to be inherently anti-competitive. The Melee/Brawl rivalry caused a lot of ugliness in the community, and made a lot of Melee players doubt Nintendo's vision of the franchise (it didn't help that this came when Nintendo was riding high on the casual market). When Brawl eventually died off and Melee had its renaissance, it left a lot of Melee players wary of the "upgrade" mentality you see in other competitive communities. Smash 4 came along, and it doesn't seem to inspire nearly as much disdain as Brawl did, but it still seems (to a lot of Melee players, at least) to not have much potential for high level competition.

You also have to consider what audience the developers are trying to serve when they make a sequel. I'm not an expert on fighting games outside of Smash, but it seems like most fighting games are made with high level play somewhat in mind. Ditto for other competitive games like Starcraft and Dota. Smash's focus is far less on tournament-style play than other fighting games and the developers seem to be either opposed to the idea of playing that way or ignorant of it.

 

[Kusagari]

A lot of it has to do with Brawl, imo. When Brawl came out, a lot of players switched over from Melee to the newer game like you would see in a typical fighting game franchise. It got more tournament entrants for a good while and Melee seemed to be in the process of dying. Brawl had a ton of issues as a competitive game, however, from extreme imbalance to overly defensive play to high levels of jank. It seemed to many players that Sakurai had designed it to be inherently anti-competitive. The Melee/Brawl rivalry caused a lot of ugliness in the community, and made a lot of Melee players doubt Nintendo's vision of the franchise (it didn't help that this came when Nintendo was riding high on the casual market). When Brawl eventually died off and Melee had its renaissance, it left a lot of Melee players wary of the "upgrade" mentality you see in other competitive communities. Smash 4 came along, and it doesn't seem to inspire nearly as much disdain as Brawl did, but it still seems (to a lot of Melee players, at least) to not have much potential for high level competition.

I wonder what would have happened if we got something like Smash 4 instead of Brawl.

 

[DR2K]

You're confusing new games appearing with games changing.

Why do some people still play Super Metroid and call it their favorite game when Metroid Fusion exists? Oh yeah, because they enjoy Super Metroid better. Same thing with Smash. Some people think Melee is a superior game, and they shouldn't have to stop playing it because there's a new game on the block (especially with how much the Melee scene is thriving 13 years after release).

I never said you weren't allowed to enjoy or play your classics or that they're invalid because there are better( or newer) things to play.

 

[Rentahamster]

Yup.

IMO when you play a game like smash with the metagame of the tournament melee players, you kill the fun and reason to play a game like Smash in the first place.

I think Sakurai said something similar at one point.

"you kill the fun" - It looks like they're having a lot of fun to me.

"and reason to play a game like Smash" - The reason to play any game is for fun and entertainment. If the people playing are having fun, and are entertained, it is the right reason.

 

[Tomohawk]

I never said you weren't allowed to enjoy or play your classics or that they're invalid because there are better( or newer) things to play.

No, but you did say Melee players are averse to change, because they didn't want to pick up game you think is superior, but they don't. Seems like a very self centered view point, unless i'm misinterpreting you.

 

[riskybusinesstomcruise]

The amount of ignorance in Melee threads is so ridiculous. I don't know why I bother reading these any more.

Its hard to believe after this long there are still people with no experience with competitive Melee coming into these threads spewing garbage.

Going from Smash 4 to Melee is like going from Street Fighter 1 to Super Turbo, the sheer number of features and mechanics that you miss out on is massive. (Disclaimer - Smash 4 is a very good game, Street Fighter 1 is not.) It is NOT akin to the difference between SF2, SF3 or SF4.

 

[Rentahamster]

Because Other M is shit and Smash 4 is actually a great game.

Your own personal, subjective, assessment of what is shit and what is a great game is irrelevant to the discussion.

What matters is why the community as a whole prefers one game over the other in a competitive gaming context.

 

[Dion Blaster]

Well I wouldn't compare it to that because everyone moved to CS GO eventually.

That's actually a great example of a developer listening to their fans.

 

[Japanmanx3]

There is only one Melee. It'll always be that way. The Smash series will continue in its greatness but Melee is eternal. I love all Smash games btw.

 

[Arttemis]

me either, it was my friend's game of choice since its release. we were 6. not once did i ever think about it being too hard

Project M is made by competitive Melee fans/players, specifically the sort of people who understand what (most of) the Melee community would want.

It's a free mod, not exactly as big of a risk as developing a new game from scratch and trying to sell it.

Okay..? My comment was in response to the idea that creating a Melee sequel/successor couldn't be done because the fans are too picky and incapable of firing an onion. Well, that ridiculous because there's a group of unpaid people don't just that.

And it's not as though Nintendo couldn't approach them; developers work with recognized and/or organized fans for game testing and feedback all the time. DMC and SF development involved fan opinions and testing

 

[jackissocool]

Playstation All-Stars kind of tried...it was an OK effort?

All-Stars was very different from melee and Smash in general I terms of combat mechanics and flow, and the competitive appeal is totally different (not to mention the game's quality because I have defended it enough).

 

[0xCA2]

Yes. I'm not aware that it's been announced yet, though, so I'd consider the fact a public secret.

I don't really have any proof available to back up my claim, btw. I just happen to be a part of the same dev community as a PM dev who is already working on this new game.

I hope this is true

Do you have any other details? Is this a 3D game or a 2D game? Will it have a publisher or are they going they going the crowdfunding route?

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Imagine if Starcraft 2 was completely different and not what the competitive community desired, it would've been lucrative as fuck to try and get some of that disgruntled audience when they're looking for something new.

You say this as though Starcraft 2 wasn't completely different and was actually what the competitive community desired.

 

[chaosblade]

I hope this is true

Do you have any other details? Is this a 3D game or a 2D game? Will it have a publisher or are they going they going the crowdfunding route?

I'd be interested in seeing some proof, because multiple people from the PM dev team have said they don't have any intention or interest in creating their own game. That's not to say they could be lying to keep it a secret, or it's something just a handful of the PM devs are involved in and not the ones who have said they are just doing PM. It just goes against what has been said in the past.

 

[Who]

My personal opinion is that Melee>Smash4>PM>Brawl

Smash 4 is amazing though and has really great online and a great roster.

Nintebdo doesn't need to recreate Melee but should absolutely release an HD port of it on the WiiU considering how many people still actively play it today. I would add that they should add online to the port but I don't know how feasible that would be.

 

[SegaShack]

The weird part is that his "mistake" was the most successful game on the GameCube by far. I never heard about accessibility problems for Melee back when it came out.

This. Everyone I know loved it and had a blast. I don't get all these "it's for tourney people" posts in here. The game had an insane appeal and was not limited to some small group of fighting game enthusiasts or anything like that.

A well made game is a well made game plain and simple. Just because it has the depth that allowed it to become a competitive fighter doesn't mean that the game itself is only for that type of audience.

 

[DR2K]

No, but you did say Melee players are averse to change, because they didn't want to pick up game you think is superior, but they don't. Seems like a very self centered view point, unless i'm misinterpreting you.

They are very much averse to change from the Melee formula. Any deviation(better or worse)is inferior or isn't "like Melee". I personally see no reason to play Melee after Smash 4, I don't give 2 shits about wave dashing or glitched out movement options. The lack of any sort of balance character wise doesn't help. I enjoy Melee for what it offered and it's cool that people still play it and are passionate about it.

 

[Pwnsweet]

It has been replaced.

by PM

 

[chaosblade]

It has been replaced.

by PM

PM peaked last year. It's really unfortunate because 3.5 is great and the future of the mod is promising, but Nintendo isn't going to give it an opportunity to shine. Other than maybe MVG, no big league TOs want anything to do with it out of the fear of retaliation from Nintendo or sponsors. The future of PM is mostly going to be just local tournaments and smaller regionals, and PM-specific "majors."

(I certainly intend to continue entering PM as long as my local continues to host it).

 

[Tomohawk]

They are very much averse to change from the Melee formula. Any deviation(better or worse)is inferior or isn't "like Melee". I personally see no reason to play Melee after Smash 4, I don't give 2 shits about wave dashing or glitched out movement options. The lack of any sort of balance character wise doesn't help. I enjoy Melee for what it offered and it's cool that people still play it and are passionate about it.

Well see, they do care about wave dashing and in a more general sense movement options. I already said in this thread that a lot of the top and veteran melee players play other fighting games and for certain period of time other smash games, its not about being averse to change, its about being averse to playing some thing they don't find fun. I fail to see how you finding smash 4 better is a sufficient counter argument.

 

[Tesseract]

http://store.steampowered.com/app/291550/

is rad

 

[M-PG71C]

Fuck Melee, there I said it. Brawl and the Wii U one are better games, period. :/

Bring it on haters! /enddrunkcomment

 

[freethoughtbubble]

Fuck Melee, there I said it. Brawl and the Wii U one are better games, period. :/

Bring it on haters! /enddrunkcomment

When it comes to Melee, some people take other people's preferences oddly personally and I'll never understand it

 

[DryEyeRelief]

Street Fighter x Tekken is a drastically different game that was never meant to replace Street Fighter IV.

I guess you have no memory of the SF25th anniversary tournament following the release of that game. Or at the time of Street Fighter x Tekken's release, SF4 at weeklies was dead, because the community was transitioning. Very similar to how Brawl was picked up for a year and then the community returned back to Melee after people realizing what kind of game it was.

It also has the misfortune of being considered a poor game.

Well people are arguing Brawl is that. Some would argue Smash 4 is also that.

As for KOF97's enduring popularity in China, I don't recall that ever being at a detriment to successive games. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not as aware of China's FGC as I am the US or Japan.

KOF13 (2011) is the newest game in the franchise and it has no following in the country despite their being arcade boards available for it.

Melee's community, as far as I can tell, is fairly unique in its venom for other titles in the series. It's really kind of interesting. Whereas other FGCs seem fully capable of adapting to changes in the series, changes in the Smash Bros. formula, from character speed, to the removal of exploits and glitches, are enough, in these people's eyes, to make Smash Bros. an uninteresting game to play or watch. It's fascinating.

You really think there aren't players who exist who prefer the previous iterations of a fighting game franchise?

It's weird hearing people say how the Melee community's dedication is a bad thing when coming from other communities, many cite that as the example to keep older games alive.

 

[Vigilant Gambit]

I hope this is true

Do you have any other details? Is this a 3D game or a 2D game? Will it have a publisher or are they going they going the crowdfunding route?

It's 3D. I don't know anything else.

 

[Ragingnight]

I think people are forgetting that ST still has a sizable community and same with 3s.

People only "move" on when they like the next game or community. 3s is dead hugely due to balance. Nobody wants to watch American players play Chun vs Chun top 8.

Melee having a thriving scene is fine.

That's because streerfightrxtekken is considered a bad game.

Lolno. Only stream monsters say this.

SFxT is boring to watch. Fine. So is CVS2.

SFxT is a bad game? Hell even in its first (and worse) iteration it was still decent. By the latest balance hit it was one of the best SF games to play. Too bad public perception, bad PR, DLC gems/characters killed the game.

 

[Breakfast at Noon]

I just do not "get"these games..

 

[JediLink]

Guys

You know what they should do?

What if Nintendo made a pure Star Fox fighting game where every character was like Melee Fox and Falco? How amazing would that be? I can't see any way this could possibly not be an incredible idea.

 

[KidA Seven]

I guess you have no memory of the SF25th anniversary tournament following the release of that game. Or at the time of Street Fighter x Tekken's release, SF4 at weeklies was dead, because the community was transitioning. Very similar to how Brawl was picked up for a year and then the community returned back to Melee after people realizing what kind of game it was.
.

That only really happened in the US. In Japan, the only players that were playing it were some of the players that traveled overseas. It wasn't out in the arcades and players like Daigo ended up not bothering with it.

 

[Mcdohl]

I love Melee, but competitive Melee is a beautiful accident.

Nice video. I've always thought the same way.

Don't get me wrong, I'm happy there are passionate players for melee, but it certainly looks like it wasn't Nintendo's intention.

So, if a replacement ever happens, I doubt it will come from Nintendo.

 

[Brainfreeze]

http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_regional_version_differences_%28SSBM%29

Scary and different, do not want.

Seriously tho, not really scoffing just saying. NA tourney scene is the biggest, right? And they aren't used to these changes. Evo/Apex standard uses NA 1.2, right? Even guys like Armada, Leffen, and aMSa have to learn 1.2 for big tourneys. Outsider looking in, seems like a recipe for a hypothetical backlash, imo.

Also, fox nerfs = ded 2 me.

I actually think having 4 different versions of the game may be one of the barriers to Nintendo getting a remake/port of this out there. Also out of respect for Sakurai and not wanting to cannibalize Smash 4 sales and attention. We will not get Melee HD as long as 4 is getting DLC.

If they did port Melee though, there is ONE thing I'd like them to add, and that's a version select. Would be really nice to have the option to switch between them, and it keeps Nintendo from being the one to make the (likely arbitrary) decision on what's played going forward.

 

[Videoneon]

plenty of ignorance in this thread and FG/smash tribalism. too tedious to call out

It's not that it couldn't be replicated or iterated on (Sakurai's vision of melee is probably like half of what it evolved into, a little like we might expect from FG devs) it's that Nintendo doesn't want to pursue this direction and Sakurai isn't interested in reconciling Smash with what he perceives to be the impenetrability of competitive fighting games.

At this point, any not-smash game that comes out that's too similar to Smash (melee or not) will promptly be placed in its shadow and it'll be hard to convince existing players to try it out. Given that its deviation in base gameplay is fairly large from most conventional fighting games, not a lot of people will take on it unless the basic/casual level is super accessible and the characters are incredibly attractive. And the game has to have a good basic fighting design too.

So basically, the circumstances are so specific for prospective developers (recognizable/attractive cast, accessible casual gameplay, immense depth/movement options that create a high competitive ceiling, the particularities of the Smash formula i.e. the concept of the ledge and increased knockback and DI and etc.) that no one will ever end up replacing Melee.

ALso I think it's pretty clear that Project M has evolved into its own beast separate from "brawl like melee" and this is a direction the dev team wants to pursue, making it not relevant in "replacing" melee discussion

 

[DICKS AHOY]

Guys

You know what they should do?

What if Nintendo made a pure Star Fox fighting game where every character was like Melee Fox and Falco? How amazing would that be? I can't see any way this could possibly not be an incredible idea.

What if you mained Ganondorf in Melee?