embarrassing comment.
Is no one going to try and "replace" Smash Bros. Melee?
- Thread starter Fudgepuppy
- Start date
embarrassing comment.
DrROBschiz
Member
Yeah comments like these serve to foster the grumpy attitudes of melee loaylists but they were the first ones to outright dismiss and shit on smash 4 which I think was a mistake.
The game has far more value as a competitive fighter than its given credit for and im tired of Melee being used as some crutch to dismiss it.
We all loved Melee. Every smash fan did and still do.
Brainfreeze
Member
I really enjoy Smash 4, but I reeeaaally want Melee HD. Or at least Melee on the VC. That'd be enough for me, I don't really care if we get Melee 2 ever (though PM is a really fun alternative from time to time).
At least I wouldn't have to waste space in my room for a CRT and Wii setup. And it would make the GCN adaptor useful for more than 1 game. That's easy money Nintendo, come on!
At least I wouldn't have to waste space in my room for a CRT and Wii setup. And it would make the GCN adaptor useful for more than 1 game. That's easy money Nintendo, come on!
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
Rivals of Aether is what you guys want: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cwTG4kWACcU
DrROBschiz
Member
I think that is the most reasonable and realistoc path to getting melee support back to the stage.
Although they haven't touched gamecube games on WiiU since the first few were put on there.
You have to imagine Melee is a candidate if they plan to continue putting GC games on WiiU
I think PM proved that the Melee community is willing to adopt another game in large numbers, without replacing the original. It also brought in a lot of people that could respect the game and gameplay, but simply aren't excited about a really old game anymore, and PM was new and exciting so they jumped in.
Unfortunately PM lost an absurd amount of momentum due to their large update launching just before Smash 4, and being ousted from all major tournaments due to Nintendo themselves.
Also Dolphin will never be a legitimate platform for PM. Input lag. Even if your adapter can run with sub 1 frame input lag, Dolphin itself is incapable of rendering sub 1 frame. This is true. No matter what you think you feel. And therefore it will never be an acceptable tournament platform.
I hope so, but it probably won't be any kind of major new title that people shift to. I do think it will catch on with a lot of Melee fans though, and see some good tournament support if the game is actually good.
copelandmaster
Member
.
Despite the whole 'game based on the concept of "Super Smash Bros" thing,' I judge SSB4 as a game that doesn't exist in a vacuum. Because it doesn't.
I think it's a half measure because quite a few ways, it is. On it's own, and compared to the other games.
- The execution of its online features were half measure.
Compared to the available game mode options available to local players, half measure. Compared online options available in hundreds of other multilayer online games on console and pc, half measure.
Compared to other consoles and PC, the Wii U's internet connectivity in general is a half-measure.
- Stages in general are a half measure. There are more, there are new, and there are good. But you are locked out of half of them in certain, crucial modes, and there is no stage hazard off option, so here's flat planes instead. Half-measure.
- Custom moves. Do I even need to go there?
- Preface: I do not believe that new is better. But what I'm about to mention is within the context of SSB4 as a sequel to Brawl. I can see why this would be highly arguable, but here goes my most likely inadequate attempt to explain anyway:
In terms of gameplay, it tries to take the game away from brawl, and does not much else. They added a Rage mechanic and a different ledge mechanic, and a bunch of new characters. They put all the heavy lifting on the characters themselves to differentiate the game from it's predecessor. Changing and adding to the roster, but not evolving the gameplay itself. Half-measure, especially compared to it's predecessors.
Brawl was a bigger jump by virtue of throwing out the old house, keeping the foundation, building a worse-but-surface-level-same-facsimilie-house. SSB4 takes the Brawl house, guts the obvious stuff the client complained about, puts a sun room in the back, puts spackle, crown molding, and new wallpaper on everything to cover up the cracks; and adds some new furniture. Also, various new problems were introduced in this renovation, but hey "New House! Put it on the market."
This took way too long for me to type, lol.
Yeah, that's what I was kinda trying to shoot for with that whole messy post, you put it more succinctly.
Oh, I didn't need to see this. This is going to bother me until the end of time and space.
As much as I want it to be I don't think it's possible at the moment. They'd need to put an absurd amount of time into specifically optimizing for sub 16ms rendering of the game, and I don't see it happening ever. There is no lag test proving it has sub 1 frame input lag in any hardware configuration and I sadly doubt there ever will be.
Still a good platform if it's all you have and does allow for online play (which is always going to have some lag so whatever).
Wait, isn't the PAL just Melee v1.3? What's up with scoffing at that?
Regulus Tera
Romanes Eunt Domus
It made Fox slightly less OP so obviously it's bad.
Lunchbillion
Member
I don't think Melee players want another game, and there's nothing wrong with that. They just really, really like Melee - and that's pretty cool.
Also, Smash 4 in special mode does not equal Melee, haha.
Also, Smash 4 in special mode does not equal Melee, haha.
copelandmaster
Member
http://supersmashbros.wikia.com/wiki/List_of_regional_version_differences_%28SSBM%29
Scary and different, do not want.
Seriously tho, not really scoffing just saying. NA tourney scene is the biggest, right? And they aren't used to these changes. Evo/Apex standard uses NA 1.2, right? Even guys like Armada, Leffen, and aMSa have to learn 1.2 for big tourneys. Outsider looking in, seems like a recipe for a hypothetical backlash, imo.
Also, fox nerfs = ded 2 me.
Bu... bu... but I liked PASBR...
I was a killer freakin Sackboy.
curlyfriski
Banned
As someone who's played every Smash game extensively, I don't think making a Smash-clone with Melee's physics would win over anybody. The whole reason I play Smash is because of all the franchises being represented. As for the competitive aspect, I really wish Smash 4 would get more respect from the competitive community. I think both Melee and 4 have great competitive legs, however because of 4's more slow-paced gameplay everyone shits on the game's competitive aspect. I can understand hating Brawl, but 4 is way more balanced and well thought out than Melee ever was. That's just my opinion, but I think Smash 4 deserves a decent competitive community.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
PSASBR is fun enough as a dumb party game with bizarre 'guest' characters but as far as gameplay it's even duller than Brawl. No clue why people were bringing it up on the first page.
Also would Project M (sort of) count? At this point it's trying to be its own thing from Melee with some of the mechanics and character-changes its introduced at least.
Also would Project M (sort of) count? At this point it's trying to be its own thing from Melee with some of the mechanics and character-changes its introduced at least.
DrROBschiz
Member
- Onine Criticisms - Valid sure but its still the best implementation for the series so far and keeping it simple ensures it actually works... and lets be honest.. playing fighting games online is never going to be at the level of play locally anyways.
- Stages - Fantastic and expandable... expandable this is teh big one. Smash 4 is actually getting support. More on that later
- Custom Moves - This one is a freebie to you. I dont care for em and we never use them. Guess I am still a bit old fashioned after all.
- Gameplay. My biggest beef. Gameplay is rock solid. Smooth, precise, fast. It feels pristine polished and fair. The balance is the best I have seen for a game with 50 characters and Ive played tons of matches, watched lots of videos, and been consistently surprised by the sheer variety of viable strategies and discovery available to most of the characers.
This game is far more robust than its given credit for and this is from someone who has played thousands of hours over the past 15 years its been around?
Its obvious its not melee but its also obvious that its amazing and competitively viable and compelling. Just as intense and fun to play as many of my melee years were. ANd now it has actual support. Balance patches, new content, etc..
Its not perfect. Its Nintendo but my experience has been mountains above the insult that was brawl and there is still meat on the bone for this game much like how crazy the developments and discoveries for Melee were.
Thats all i have left to say on it
User 73706
Banned
How much has the Melee scene actually embraced PM? As something specifically made to make another Smash game as Melee as possible, I think it's the best test case for Melee fans willingness to embrace something new. I know Nintendo-sponsored events won't hold PM, but that's only been for the past year. How much penetration did PM have before then?
If that were to come to pass and the Melee scene bulks at 1.3 being widely available in the US for the first time instead of embracing it, then it deserves all of the "Melee players are afraid of change" derogation aimed at it.
If that were to come to pass and the Melee scene bulks at 1.3 being widely available in the US for the first time instead of embracing it, then it deserves all of the "Melee players are afraid of change" derogation aimed at it.
foxuzamaki
Doesn't read OPs, especially not his own
That's because streerfightrxtekken is considered a bad game.
Do you know how many top level melee players bought and played smash 4 for months, before stopping. Cause if you did you would understand why that comment makes no sense.
copelandmaster
Member
How many games have had patches that changed things, and the community as a whole said "no," so those changes didn't stick? Plenty.
Guys who didn't like CS source stayed on 1.6. Boo on them. Kinda like Melee vs. the world, huh?
Also, this was a thing that popped up today. This was a feature in the later PC version of Halo CE, but not the 1.0 console version/ initial versions of the MCC collection. Boo on those guys in that thread for not liking those gameplay changes in that game they've been playing and gotten used to, despite it being in another version of the same game that another portion of the community got used to.
DrROBschiz
Member
Bullshit
How many years did it take for melee to be completely explored and dissected
Sometimes you invest yourself into something so deep you cant see merit in anything outside the bubble
They are melees best players but ill be damned if im gonna defer my years and personal experiences to them. Smash 4 has given nothing but the same joy that Melee gave me back then
I think the reason that it took Melee a while was because people didn't know about the meta game and the amount of depth that a Smash game could have initially.
That's why they were able to put in Brawl and Smash 4 and look for it right away. You can play Smash 4 for less than a few months and clearly see it doesn't have all the offensive tools people like to have in Melee.
With all that said, I'm a fan of both. But without hesitation I'd say Smash 4 is the my favorite of the series, and the best to boot.
I don't know where you're going with this, this - I'd normally call it "appeal to authority" but there is no authority to be found, just examples of other communities engaged in what arguably could also be considered bullshit.
If the reasoning is because it's different from what they're use to then yeah, actually, boo them. I see nothing in the PAL change list that's objectionable. Unless you think Melee is already perfectly balanced
No. It's not.
freethoughtbubble
Member
What? Nobody's telling you your opinion is wrong. I like Smash 4. I hated Brawl after giving it more than a fair shake. Melee's still the best of the bunch, though. Feel free to disagree.
On topic, people saying that the Melee community wouldn't eat this up are delusional. Most Smashers are dying for a true sequel to Melee. They wouldn't drop Melee for it, because why? And it wouldn't matter if it didn't have the same characters as long they preserved the existing play styles and introduced exciting new ones to the mix. I'm certain they could Kickstart this easy and that if done right it'd be a success. I'd back it in a heart beat.
I thought this was a good post found on /r/smashbros
http://www.reddit.com/r/smashbros/comments/27wshi/praxis_reply_to_what_makes_a_game_competitive_and/
more in link, if interested
There is no magic, it just depends on your preference of Smash games.
Can we move away from the whole tournament community discussion for a just a second here.
I've never played at any tournament or followed any fighting game community stuff.
However, I honestly have to say that without a doubt Super Smash Bros Melee is one of the best games I ever played. No I don't play no items/fox only or anything like that. In terms of control and physics it just feels so perfect. It just plays so well and is so fun it was always a huge hit when I had friends over, for more than 5 years even. The content they have in it too is incredible and really emphasizes a high quality over quantity.
That Adventure mode in Melee may only be 15 minutes long but I've played it over and over again due to how well done it is. Meanwhile the Subspace Emissary for Brawl was supposed to be this great big thing (and I was really excited for it too), but it was just a really poorly done experience that dragged on and on (felt like a bad Kirby game with fighting game controls).
With Melee the events, stages, and music, are also top notch. The graphics for their time were incredibly and really left an impression on me. People are going to say I'm bias but I have games from Atari all the way to modern consoles and Melee is easily one of my top 5 games.
There's a reason people love this game. It's honestly one of the best designed games ever made. In fact here's a quote from a Sakurai interview:
So yes, the people who love the game and hold it to a high standard have every reason to do so.
I've never played at any tournament or followed any fighting game community stuff.
However, I honestly have to say that without a doubt Super Smash Bros Melee is one of the best games I ever played. No I don't play no items/fox only or anything like that. In terms of control and physics it just feels so perfect. It just plays so well and is so fun it was always a huge hit when I had friends over, for more than 5 years even. The content they have in it too is incredible and really emphasizes a high quality over quantity.
That Adventure mode in Melee may only be 15 minutes long but I've played it over and over again due to how well done it is. Meanwhile the Subspace Emissary for Brawl was supposed to be this great big thing (and I was really excited for it too), but it was just a really poorly done experience that dragged on and on (felt like a bad Kirby game with fighting game controls).
With Melee the events, stages, and music, are also top notch. The graphics for their time were incredibly and really left an impression on me. People are going to say I'm bias but I have games from Atari all the way to modern consoles and Melee is easily one of my top 5 games.
There's a reason people love this game. It's honestly one of the best designed games ever made. In fact here's a quote from a Sakurai interview:
Link
So yes, the people who love the game and hold it to a high standard have every reason to do so.
Smash 4 is best when it comes to balancing out both attack and defense.
Unfortunately defense is still more favored in the game, but I'd take it over the over defensive Brawl and over offensive Melee. We're almost there but not quite. Smash 4 is mostly mind games due to most of the roster having shitty approaches and even the good ones can be fended off without much thought. Basically attacking is what gets you attacked in most cases.
I've seen some vile hit and run, and over defensive tactics in Smash 4 online lol. In those very moments I wish I could change the game to Melee for a few seconds lol.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
If Project M was an official release I think a lot of Melee players wouldn't have much of a problem "moving on" because it builds on what they like about Melee instead of flushing it down the toilet. Project M's biggest hurdle and the reason a lot of people will never give it a fair shake is because it's a mod, and it will never be supported at Evo-tier tournaments, or even Smash-centric majors now that Nintendo is involved (despite Nintendo publicly pretending Melee stopped existing years ago).
I'd say the biggest reason no one has done it is because most people don't understand why Melee players prefer Melee, so they wouldn't "get it" enough to be able to make something that could replace Melee. And the people that do, well, they play Melee. And they made Project M.
And for what it's worth, the PMDT isn't interested in making their own game.
Also, I feel like the people asking for "Melee 2" are the people who think Melee players need to move on more than the actual Melee players.
I'd say the biggest reason no one has done it is because most people don't understand why Melee players prefer Melee, so they wouldn't "get it" enough to be able to make something that could replace Melee. And the people that do, well, they play Melee. And they made Project M.
And for what it's worth, the PMDT isn't interested in making their own game.
Also, I feel like the people asking for "Melee 2" are the people who think Melee players need to move on more than the actual Melee players.
freethoughtbubble
Member
There's nothing magical about it. Melee is just a mechanically rich game that enables players to pull off insane shit provided they put the work in. If you like competitive Smash 4, Melee is like a high-octane version of that. Faster, harder hitting, with longer, more complicated combos. Makes for a really hype game at higher levels, to watch as well as to play
copelandmaster
Member
The PAL version is an official product, licensed by Nintendo. It is not an inferior version of the game. This whole entire tangent was a hypothetical projection (read: joke) based on a community stereotype. A hypothetical that has no right answer.
That said, I really feel like I have to say this again. Boiled down, it's the same argument as comparing one Smash game to another, on a different level, and brings this point to the forefront: newer is not necessarily better, nor is it preferred. The community would pick what it would pick, SD 1.2 or HD 1.3, and that would be that. Opinions, with an outcome. Authority? What authority? Didn't mention in the joke whether they tried it for some time then and decided not to switch, or immediately got mad about it on Twitter when they heard, btw.
Declaring that those hypothetical people deserve their stereotypical label because 'they are closed minded because they don't like new the newer thing' is dumb, and honestly, seems like a rather closed minded observation to me. I guess that's my bullshit opinion, anyway.
Edsmells12345
Member
Yup.
IMO when you play a game like smash with the metagame of the tournament melee players, you kill the fun and reason to play a game like Smash in the first place.
I think Sakurai said something similar at one point.
That seems like a silly sentiment. Are the people having fun at tournaments not really having fun? Is it some sort of fake fun if they're not playing as mandated by the creator?
Their is no singular Smash community, people just group them all together because games all say Smash in title and lookalike. Its like 4 different communities.
Melee players dont need or have to move on or support new Smashes, the new Smash need to be able develop their own scene. Nobody is going "dont bring Smash 4 near Melee events". All Smash games can exist and have their own healthy scenes if people cared to put in that effort but it'll probably just be Melee and latest Smash thriving.
Street Fighter x Tekken is a drastically different game that was never meant to replace Street Fighter IV. It also has the misfortune of being considered a poor game.
As for KOF97's enduring popularity in China, I don't recall that ever being at a detriment to successive games. Correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not as aware of China's FGC as I am the US or Japan.
Melee's community, as far as I can tell, is fairly unique in its venom for other titles in the series. It's really kind of interesting. Whereas other FGCs seem fully capable of adapting to changes in the series, changes in the Smash Bros. formula, from character speed, to the removal of exploits and glitches, are enough, in these people's eyes, to make Smash Bros. an uninteresting game to play or watch. It's fascinating.
1. Nothing "replaces" a game like this where there's a healthy scene that is interested in playing said game because of specific things that one game does. Even if there are sequels with better production values, it means nothing if the crowd that enjoys the game play of one version sticks to it. You also aren't going to replace a game like this when the game that is acting as a substitute does not cater to the specific designs that made the older title so much fun to the main audience discussed here in the first place. This is not a bad thing and should actually be respected.
2. I do agree that Smash needs a competitor series or even just good alt takes on its particular type of gameplay. We still have Street Fighter despite having Guilty Gear, King of Fighters and other such franchises, so I don't see why we can't have more Smash inspired game play in new properties.
3. I imagine that while the Nintendo branding and character roster is a massive draw and pretty much nigh impossible to compete against directly, people interested in the core game play of Melee could be swayed to try this "alternate take" if it A.) goes full hog and accepts that it is trying to crib off the "platformer fighter" design of Smash with no weird inconsistencies or intentional swerves on Smash/Melee's design because "we don't want to be a Smash clone, but we want to be a Smash clone."
B.) Has a presentation that lines up well with the generally crazy nature of games like this and is cued to modern sensibilities and C.) Has a few things in its design to accommodate for newer players who never got to understand more technical things that were never directly taught to you in Melee like crouch canceling, directional influence, etc.
2. I do agree that Smash needs a competitor series or even just good alt takes on its particular type of gameplay. We still have Street Fighter despite having Guilty Gear, King of Fighters and other such franchises, so I don't see why we can't have more Smash inspired game play in new properties.
3. I imagine that while the Nintendo branding and character roster is a massive draw and pretty much nigh impossible to compete against directly, people interested in the core game play of Melee could be swayed to try this "alternate take" if it A.) goes full hog and accepts that it is trying to crib off the "platformer fighter" design of Smash with no weird inconsistencies or intentional swerves on Smash/Melee's design because "we don't want to be a Smash clone, but we want to be a Smash clone."
Hi PSABR
"Don't be close-minded of our close-mindedness". That's rich. And if the community did dismiss PAL version out of hand it would be an absurdity not because new is better, but because better is better. PAL fixes glitches, improves balance (let's not pretend space animals aren't OP). Do you think Bowser's down throw shouldn't damage G&W?
I can kinda understand those people though. Once you play a game in a franchise that is just perfect to you, you just want the new ones to add a few more features. My favorite battlefield is bad company 2 and I haven't liked any of the newer ones as much.
PensivePen
Member
I have to wonder where Sakurai's conceit that casual players only like slow, floaty games came from.
