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[Bobo Dakes]

This... is a post.

Dude got defensive over nothing.

 

[Cocaloch]

One problem with most moderate, and all right wing, understandings of these topics is they plunge forward with "common sense", i.e. what you were indoctrinated to believe as a child, understandings of the categories and processes involved. People need to critically evaluate what they say before talking or, probably more likely, just not talk.

 

[JCHandsom]

"I'd fuck you but I'd never date you."

"Is it because of my personality? Do I come on too strong?"

"Well no, you're black, and therefore I could never picture a meaningful relationship with you, introduce you to my family, or have any desire to know you as a person."


Willingness to have sex with someone of another race does not absolve someone of racism. Plenty of people have committed acts of rape against women of another race because they viewed the victim as subhuman because of their race, and thus they felt no crime would then be committed. Or they would do it to explicitly traumatize and harm the victim.

You seriously need to fucking rethink your definition of racism.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[LotusHD]

Now we're at the part where we're cheapening the word racist/racism by calling out... racism.

 

[The_Inquisitor]

Eh nevermind I need to rethink my argument. I think I agree that you cannot universally say there is a guy/girl of a specific race who is not attractive to someone. They may not exist on a local level but on a global level there is likely more than one.

 

[Baraka Obama]

Yep

 

[Calcaneus]

Preferences aren't considered sacred in other contexts, I'm not sure why it is when it comes to dating. If someone said they could never be friends/work/live with a black woman would there be the same hesitation in considering it racist? I'm sure people who say those things could also defend it as just a preference that they can't change and say they don't actually hate other races.

 

[Llyranor]

Can you ask your friend specifically where on the chart he's willing to draw the line as to who's datable or not?

Is not wanting to date men sexist?

"I am not attracted to men"

"I am attracted to men, except the black ones"

 

[wandering]

This thread is suddenly (even more) creepy...

I was already weirded out by the "child bearing characteristics" post

 

[D i Z]

Now we're at the part where we're cheapening the word racist/racism by calling out... racism.

The Olympics don't wait for anyone to start. Light the torch. Let's get to the cheating events already.

 

[duckroll]

Now we're at the part where we're cheapening the word racist/racism by calling out... racism.

If anything, racism is something that is too exclusive in the minds of people. It NEEDS to be "cheapened" more, because the sooner we all realize how there are elements of racism in everything we do, the easier it will be to have meaningful conversation about how we can all do better. As long as the "real racist" is that other person who is an exclusive example of a VERY BAD MAN who obviously cannot be me, it will be hard to change.

 

[Soapbox Killer]

I'm not sure you can base it solely on this scenario. Too many other variables to say "yes", "racist" and dismiss the rest of the friends character. To me, that's like saying any white guy that uses the non PC form of "ninja" is racist.

 

[Ishan]

There is admittedly the very real problem that the word Racism has greatly depreciated in value.

Actual racists have long learned how to circumvent the accusations of being called racist.
In fact, using accustory language can have an opposite effect, entrenching people in their beliefs.
And it is admittedly used far too extremely, cheapening its value when used against people with actual malicious racist attitudes.

The more subversive members of the Right have one idea right: you can't just use the same language and assume it'll stick. You have to rephrase things, use different language to get your point across. Language can be maliciously twisted, but can also be bent to better convey the truth.

We might need to surpass simply calling something racist. It no longer seems sufficient. Though I have no idea what that would be.

True ppl nowadays use racism as a blanket term for racism xenophobia communalism etc etc . But I think this may be an American effect where lots of things are seen within the racism lens due to its history .

 

[LookAtMeGo]

Can you ask your friend specifically where on the chart he's willing to draw the line as to who's datable or not?

I prefer the dead for a week look of 1 and 3.

 

[Starfish Hero]

I mean, it should go without being said that I feel that there are drop dead gorgeous freaking women of EVERY ethnicity.

This is why the answer is overwhelmingly yes. Like, everyone probably has some preferences that favor one race over at least one other. Nothing inherently wrong with that. But there's a difference between that and drawing a hard line between a diverse looking group of people who all fall under the same race. OP's friend is essentially saying there's no drop dead gorgeous black women, simply because they're all black.

 

[LotusHD]

The Olympics don't wait for anyone to start. Light the torch. Let's get to the cheating events already.

I'm not ready.

If anything, racism is something that is too exclusive in the minds of people. It NEEDS to be "cheapened" more, because the sooner we all realize how there are elements of racism in everything we do, the easier it will be to have meaningful conversation about how we can all do better. As long as the "real racist" is that other person who is an exclusive example of a VERY BAD MAN who obviously cannot be me, it will be hard to change.

Well said. Maybe the word wouldn't be "cheap" to some of you guys if there weren't so damn many examples of it. It isn't just about the obvious slurs and such, it's pervasive as fuck in everything we do.

 

[Basketball]

You can't change your race so yes

Preferences can be like not wanting an over/underweight person

or religion maybe

 

[Cocaloch]

There is admittedly the very real problem that the word Racism has greatly depreciated in value.

Actual racists have long learned how to circumvent the accusations of being called racist.

This is the key issue though. Though it's ironic, as the left spawned critical approaches to discourse, we're far worse at advertising and branding than the right. But the word has "depreciated in value", I'd be more specific and say the common understanding of the word has become nebulously bad, because the right outplayed us to make it so.

In fact, using accustory language can have an opposite effect, entrenching people in their beliefs.

True, people use words in ways that are ultimately unhelpful, but I feel like this is both inevitable and minor in comparison to the active discursive influence of the right.

In fact, using accustory language can have an opposite effect, entrenching people in their beliefs.
And it is admittedly used far too extremely, cheapening its value when used against people with actual malicious racist attitudes.

See above, this is the mastery of the right's propaganda. Somehow the left is to blame for the word losing a lot of its punch, not the people actively trying to dismantle it and the acceptance of the intellectual framework around it.

The more subversive members of the Right have one idea right: you can't just use the same language and assume it'll stick. You have to rephrase things, use different language to get your point across. Language can be maliciously twisted, but can also be bent to better convey the truth.

Language is a game, but part of the reason the left is being outplayed is because it, or at least a large portion of it, operates on moral rules that don't exist for its adversaries.

We might need to surpass simply calling something racist. It no longer seems sufficient. Though I have no idea what that would be.

You have the answer here, stop simply calling something racist by explaining specifically how and why it's bad.

Preferences aren't considered sacred in other contexts, I'm not sure why it is when it comes to dating. If someone said they could never be friends/work/live with a black woman would there be the same hesitation in considering it racist? I'm sure people who say those things could also defend it as just a preference that they can't change and say they don't actually hate other races.

It's crossed wires from our understanding of sexuality. It's a pretty easy hole to get yourself out of if you've thought critically about gender and sexuality, but that's not most people.

Additionally, a utilitarian approach would come to the same conclusion without saying something theoretical about the categories. So really there is no excuse here.

I'm not ready.



Well said. Maybe the word wouldn't be "cheap" to some of you guys if there weren't so damn many examples of it. It isn't just about the obvious slurs and such, it's pervasive as fuck in everything we do.

The problem isn't just that it's lost its moral bite, frankly those tend to be unhelpful for category words, it's that it is perceived, quite incorrectly, to have lost its analytical stability and use.

 

[Snowybreak]

I'm not sure you can base it solely on this scenario. Too many other variables to say "yes", "racist" and dismiss the rest of the friends character. To me, that's like saying any white guy that uses the non PC form of "ninja" is racist.

...There's a non-PC version of the word ninja? Is it shinobi?

 

[mavo]

The way your worded your question? Yes, why don't you date someone that you like just because of their race? Maybe if he said "i don't find black women attractive" you could make a case but that is highly unbelievable anyway, even if you don't like the characteristics that a race shares you are sure to find someone who has other characteristic attractive enough for you that they will overcome what you don't like (which is completely normal, if you say you find everything about a person attractive you are either lying or madly in love).

But honestly attraction and racism is kinda like an interesting debate, because we think racists wouldn't find someone of a race they hate attractive but they do all the time, like there is a reason of why that hypersexual black woman stereotype exist (Can't remember the exact name).

 

[Via Purifico]

Let's say you like lighter skin. Or even darker skin.

I dunno. I'm just being devils advocate here.

Is not wanting to date men sexist?

Funny part is i've seen gay men use this very same logic in my spaces when it comes to race. It's still wrong.

 

[JCHandsom]

...There's a non-PC version of the word ninja? Is it shinobi?

Naruto?

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

I mean personally I find different races sexier though there are exceptions in every one I can think of (don’t find black women attrractive normally but Halle berry is a dream). It’s like a hair color (I always prefer black when it comes to that) or eye color (green or blue) or body type (curvy) though. Just a physical trait that I like certain ones better if we’re talking strictly looks. I wouldn’t refuse to date an East Asian woman if we had a genuine connection though

 

[Cocaloch]

I'm not sure you can base it solely on this scenario. Too many other variables to say "yes", "racist" and dismiss the rest of the friends character. To me, that's like saying any white guy that uses the non PC form of "ninja" is racist.

That's a problem with people's obsession with essentializing traits to things. It's far broader than this issue here. He is racist insofar as he is currently acting in the manner of a racist. If this is literally the only thing going on, though it almost certainly isn't, and he stops doing it then he is no longer racist.

Personally I think everyone is racist and saying that is tantamount to saying everyone has been affected by culture and/or interacts with society. Some people are more and some people are less racist. More importantly, some people are trying to be less racist and others are not.

 

[Roronoa Zoro]

Naruto?

SASUKE!!!!!!

 

[Snowybreak]

Naruto?

Possibly!

 

[Miles X]

I mean if you say "I've yet to be attracted to an asian person" you're just stating a fact (if it's true obviously). But if you say "I'd never date an asian person" then yeah racist.

I guess when people talk about 'preferences' it's more sub concious racism, generally.

I think people should just live their lives and date who they wanna date but keep their opinions about what they do and don't find sexy, to themselves. Because this is harmful to more than just POC. All sorts of people can (and rightfully so) get offended at being told 'there's no chance because _____' something they can't change about themselves.

 

[JCX]

Yes because it assumes everyone of a race is the same.

Even among black women, you have so many different shades of beauty. Can't imagine excluding a group like that.

 

[Derwind]

-snip-

To answer your question, the statement "I'd never date X [race/ethnicity/geographical region]" is problematic because it has the same effect as saying "All people of X [race/ethnicity/geographical region] are the same".

Unless you think the makeup of say every black women is exactly the same and is the one qualifer that makes you not want to date them.

Is there a particular shade, facial feature, hair colour, eye colour? What about black women ( or any group of people) can you specifically point to that all of them share that makes you unable to imagine having a relationship with? (Again, I'm just using black women as an example because of the OP's post).

 

[Shaanyboi]

I mean if you say "I've yet to be attracted to an asian person" you're just stating a fact (if it's true obviously). But if you say "I'd never date an asian person" then yeah racist.

I guess when people talk about 'preferences' it's more sub concious racism, generally.

I think people should just live their lives and date who they wanna date but keep their opinions about what they do and don't find sexy, to themselves. Because this is harmful to more than just POC. All sorts of people can (and rightfully so) get offended at being told 'there's no chance because _____' something they can't change about themselves.

People keeping their attitudes about race internalized has done plenty of fucking harm too. "Don't talk about it" doesn't help shit.

 

[Cocaloch]

I mean if you say "I've yet to be attracted to an asian person" you're just stating a fact (if it's true obviously). But if you say "I'd never date an asian person" then yeah racist.

I guess when people talk about 'preferences' it's more sub concious racism, generally.

I think people should just live their lives and date who they wanna date but keep their opinions about what they do and don't find sexy, to themselves. Because this is harmful to more than just POC. All sorts of people can (and rightfully so) get offended at being told 'there's no chance because _____' something they can't change about themselves.

Okay, I think this is good, but I also think we can critically reflect on what we feel and why we feel that way. So I think the bolded is a baseline expectation of how not to be bad, but also that we can do better.

People keeping their attitudes about race internalized has done plenty of fucking harm too. "Don't talk about it" doesn't help shit.

What he's getting at there is that talking about this can also do some harm. It might be useful, but that would require what good it could do outweighing the bad.

 

[nel e nel]

You can find certain features unattractive just because you do. For example, I find red hair unattractive. That does not make me bigoted against the Irish.

But to completely disavow any romantic interest in an entire group over their ethnicity/race instead of being willing to give people a shot on their own merits, especially when there is a ton of physical variety within ethnicities/races is racist.

No, but it makes you a bit of a dumbass for thinking all redheads are Irish.

 

[LionPride]

So there's a difference of preference and refusal

I would rather not date white women because they are not who I prefer

but I won't refuse

 

[JCX]

My favorite flavor of this kind of racist is the one that thinks he's slick and says "I'll only date white or Latino". Even though Latino can range from really dark skin to really light skin, you know what they mean, they're just too dense to see how dumb their own backwards preferences are.

 

[Miles X]

People keeping their attitudes about race internalized has done plenty of fucking harm too. "Don't talk about it" doesn't help shit.

Okay, I think this is good, but I also think we can critically reflect on what we feel and why we feel that way. So I think the bolded is a baseline expectation of how not to be bad, but also that we can do better.

Do both of you feel those that put in their tinder profiles "NO BLACKS" ect are even ready to have a conversation about .... that?

9/10 you don't want a conversation, you just wanna bark at people.

 

[Nephtis]

It depends.

If there’s a certain feature he doesn’t like (lips, nose, hair, eyes, etc) then I don’t think it’s racist. It’s a preference, and there’s plenty of people of all races this applies to.

If it’s just because of their skin color? Yeah that’s racist. Or at the very least, bigoted. Even so, you can’t force yourself to date someone just because you don’t want to be seen as a racist/bigoted person. But you do have to admit there is a problem though.

 

[Dipper145]

If you find them attractive but don't date them anyway because of their race? Yes, that's obviously racism. A comment like being able to never date a black girl is pretty racist assuming the context that it came up fits.

I'm sure at one point or another most people have been asked if they are into race X? I'm not sure if saying no to that is racist or not. It's different than saying you would never, for any case, regardless of the situation, for any reason, or any circumstance, ever date a person of race X.

I personally don't think its racist. But there is probably some inherent racism behind those preferences that have developed through societal, cultural and environmental influences. But I also don't think it would make a person who would say they aren't typically into a certain race a racist/terrible human being.

 

[Zeyphersan]

I see we’ve gotten to the part of the thread where someone feels the need to define racism into a super limited scope in order for a whole lot of racist shit to not qualify

 

[BlackBanditSho]

Because (as has been said multiple times in this thread) race is not biological, it's a social construct. There are no unifying features that categorize "blackness" or "whiteness" outside of stereotypes. So to say that one wouldn't date "black" women means to say that you buy into the idea that people assigned to a certain race must therefore have certain characteristics of that race, which is judging someone based on proxy instead of who they actually are, which is discriminatory, and to discriminate against someone based on the fact that they're "black" or "white" perpetuates those stereotypes that box people in.

what??? No. I'm not talking about those absurd reasonings that black people are better athletes and Asians are better at math and all the other crap that ACTUAL racists try to justify as fact over the years.

I'm saying that there are cultural differences in the sense of SHARED EXPERIENCE that has value. I'm not talking about artificial constructs of blackness. This isn't about some stereotype put UPON a group or people or perception from an outside force.

I can only use an example from personal experience. So when I first came to Los Angeles, I was pulled over so much that i knew when the police were coming before the sirens wailed.

So one time i'm on this date with a woman, and of course, I get pulled over. At night. In a primarily hispanic part of North Hollywood. This was NOT a good look. One officer was black - which is never good, the other white.

So the girl and I never became a thing, we never had a long relationship after that, but in that moment, she knew EXACTLY how to act and what to do, as did I, in order to make sure that we both went home that night. We looked at each other and just knew that this was one of those moments where having a shared similar experience informed how to react. We knew how to move, we knew how to to talk to the officer and which officer was for me to talk, and which was hers. No words exchanged. Even as i'm being put on the ground and frisked and she's being cool and keeping the, already edgy black officer cool, while i chill and disarm the white officer, the situation ended with peace. Guns withdrawn, we all went home without so much as a warning. When they left, we just looked at each other, breathed a sigh of relief, then kept it pushing.

To the point: this wasn't meant to illustrate profiling, but a specific thing that I know that I could've gone VERY differently with a woman of another cultural background, OR, as CRASH superbly illustrated with Thandie Newton, a woman of my own color but from a VERY different upbringing.

It's not that I chose to date black women exclusively because I think black women categorically look better or black don't crack or none of that other crap. I want to see myself in my children, and I love our nappy black hair and I love that my chances increase of finding women who share my experiences and appreciate what I appreciate with regards to values in beauty if I start from the base of 'Black woman'. Just pure logic and stats dictate that.

That's a very specific example from a personal situation, but the point: we have our reasons. Now I'd be a real racist asshole if I judged my friends for their choices or stopped my children from making their own choices. There's beauty in EVERYONE, but the beauty I personally adore is in my own cultural reflection.

And really, is there anything wrong with pursuing that?

 

[Luminaire]

Absolutely.

Smack your friend in the face.

 

[Cocaloch]

No, but it makes you a bit of a dumbass for thinking all redheads are Irish.

That guy generally means well, so I think we can cut him a bit of slack. I do get sad when people tell me I'm not Irish because I have brown hair though.

 

[RatchetWhiteGirls]

I have a white friend that refuses to date white girls. He will only date black and latino girls. How do we label that?

 

[Via Purifico]

My favorite flavor of this kind of racist is the one that thinks he's slick and says "I'll only date white or Latino". Even though Latino can range from really dark skin to really light skin, you know what they mean, they're just too dense to see how dumb their own backwards preferences are.

And the no asians bs but would willingly go for someone like Kunal Kapoor or Priyanka Chopra.

 

[Shaanyboi]

Do both of you feel those that put in their tinder profiles "NO BLACKS" ect are even ready to have a conversation about .... that?

9/10 you don't want a conversation, you just wanna bark at people.

They're doing everyone a favor by displaying what garbage people they are.

 

[Miles X]

I have a white friend that refuses to date white girls. He will only date black and latino girls. How do we label that?

That isn't often called racism, but fetishism.

They're doing everyone a favor by displaying what garbage people they are.

Sure, but they do a lot of damage for those that can see, and see it over and over again. Fine for those with thick skins but for those who don't ... not so good.

 

[Soapbox Killer]

As a straight man, would I be a homophobe if I'm not attracted to a gay man? No, I do not think that would be accurate at all. What makes this a different situation with the given facts?


This is an interesting debate that could bring so meaningful dialogue and hopefully more understanding amongst different people.

 

[LotusHD]

I have a white friend that refuses to date white girls. He will only date black and latino girls. How do we label that?

This username tho

 

[Finaika]

We are all racist to a degree.

 

[Via Purifico]

As a straight man, would I be a homophobe if I'm not attracted to a gay man? No, I do not think that would be accurate at all. What makes this a different situation with the given facts?


This is an interesting debate that could bring so meaningful dialogue and hopefully more understanding amongst different people.

Because biological attraction is not the same as race.

 

[Kaizer]

Racism isn't just about hate, it's also about tiers. Say someone runs a company, and he has no problems at all with hiring black people, but makes it clear that a black person would never make partner at the firm. Is that racist? It clearly is. But he doesn't hate black people, he just doesn't think they are worthy to be more than just employees at his company. He doesn't see them as equals.

Recognizing stuff like this is so much more important than trying to make racism a thing where it is one extreme or the other. The majority of racism that plagues society isn't KKK/Nazi dudes killing and beating minorities. It is the average person who isn't even aware of how their bias plays into decision making and thinking it is fine.

Exactly, it's never the outright in your face racism that sticks out or hurts the most, it's the subtle ways we as a culture have been conditioned to have racial biases, both negative & positive, towards others.