Support NeoGAF

[burn this down]

Social Justice Warrior used to refer to those super left extremist you see on Tumblr and the like. I was okay with it back then. Then it got co-opted by groups like GooberGoat and used as short hand for "person I disagree with" or "person calling me on my bullshit", and became a super childish insult. And they use it all the time.

So yeah, it is super annoying.

 

[shadowsdarknes]

"X is insecure"
"No it's not for reasons stated"
"The fact that people are going to these lengths to defend this is just proof that people are upset that people figured out they're insecure"

You could literally do this about any assertion.

-Social justice warriors are a bunch of white knight phonys
-No they aren't for reasons stated
-They are just mad that people are finally catching onto their schtick.

It's nonsense.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I prefer neo-lib to describe the more fanatical branch of the left.

That's not what neoliberal is referring to. Neoliberal refers to a revival of classical liberalism, rationalization of the bureaucracy, trickle-down economics, new public management, the cult of efficiency in service provision, running government like a business. Reagan and Thatcher. Austrian economics. Laissez-faire. i.e. stuff associated with the political right, "conservatives" in the US, or "libertarians".

It wouldn't fit even if neoliberal wasn't already a term, because the attacks made against the people you're describing are that they are anti-liberal, anti-pluralist, and hostile to outside thought. This is basically tension between left-progressivism and classical liberalism. Haha.

 

[Kreed]

I like it. It's like a reverse dog whistle. You can draw some firm conclusions about anyone who uses that term.

^Any time I see someone use it on GAF and they aren't making fun of the term or people who use the term I know to look forward to some "funny" posts from the poster in question.

 

[QuantumZebra]

I dont really think man cave indicates insecurity at this point tbh. Its just sorta becone the name for "room dude designed" because generally decorating has been associated with women. Obviously in this day and age men also do a lot more interior design.

The "For Men" branding extends to everything honestly. Go to a store. Mens section. Womens section. Its really not a big deal.

The whole issue here is that it's idiotic branding.

A lot of women like stuff that is "For Men" and a lot of men like stuff that is "For Women", not to mention transgender people.

It's the same bullshit with "Toys for Girls" and "Toys for Boys"... I have seen little girls be told they can't have X toy or X shirt because its "for boys".

It's trash and outdated.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

Off the top of my head: that guys should smell one way and girls should smell another, that boys should only like specific colors and girls should only like specific other colors, that boys should like tanks and cars and girls should like dolls and cooking toys.

I'm not really sure if its as much an issue of the product separation as much as just the products available. Because -- as your picture below demonstrates -- they would still be separately marketed. Not trying to split hairs and I do agree with your toys example.

It seems to me that often the ratio of societal influence for a lot of these prevalent choices is very skewed. I do think a lot of these preferences have a biological root that's more influential than societal conditioning (not to say society doesn't play a part). Still, I believe accommodations should be made for outliers. Not making a little girl or boy feel weird about going into a mis-gendered aisle to get their tonka truck or barbie is something I'm definitely on board with. There's really no benefit to gender separating toys.

I agree that some things like clothes and razors are fine being specific to gender. But stuff like the below image is just stupid.

Yeah this is dumb as shit for sure. I don't consider it harmful. Well... no more harmful than just the generally shitty and exploitative nature of advertising. But not insofar is it leading to preconceptions in our society. It sure is dumb as shit, though.

 

[Gordon Shumway]

I also find the modern use of gross to be strange and bordering on the juvenile. Must be a generational thing.

I thought it was just me..

 

[entremet]

The whole issue here is that it's idiotic branding.

A lot of women like stuff that is "For Men" and a lot of men like stuff that is "For Women", not to mention transgender people.

It's the same bullshit with "Toys for Girls" and "Toys for Boys"... I have seen little girls be told they can't have X toy or X shirt because its "for boys".

It's trash and outdated.

Technically, it's modern and started when marketing techniques arose in the mid 20th century. It's easier to target a market when you segment it.

Gendered toys weren't common previous eras. They were just toys.

By removing gendered distinctions with toys were actually going back.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

I think people on the right and Men's Rights Activists have many valid points in whatever we call this cultural battle that seems to be going on in the internet of today.

.... dude what.

 

[dave is ok]

Sexist

 

[Henkka]

I wouldn't take my ques from a "Moon landing didn't happen" Conspiracy guy.

I don't think he denies the moon landing anymore. Anyway, the point wasn't Rogan's character. The point was that the use of 'Social justice warrior' as a term is now widespread. It's used by people on the left, right and in between.

 

[Alcotholic]

.... dude what.

Someone can agree with certain criticisms, but disagree with how they are represented.

 

[HP_Wuvcraft]

Someone can agree with certain criticisms, but disagree with how they are represented.

What valid points have ever come out of the MRA front?

You're talking about people that think a literal gender war is coming, and that rape should be legal.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Sexist

I like girls, I just don't like them to be slimy or toxic.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

The whole issue here is that it's idiotic branding.

A lot of women like stuff that is "For Men" and a lot of men like stuff that is "For Women", not to mention transgender people.

It's the same bullshit with "Toys for Girls" and "Toys for Boys"... I have seen little girls be told they can't have X toy or X shirt because its "for boys".

It's trash and outdated.

For men and for women are branding based on appealing to demographics. There will always be cross over for demographics of course but marketimg is why these things stuck. The majority of gendered branding generally does a good job in relation to adults. Obviously there are rxceptions of course.

Children is different. As another poster said. Stuff was not as "for boys", "for girls" before. Original lego blocks os a good example of a gender neutral toy. I dont really see a point in genderimg play things in a store (the products themselves are largely still going to be though). Kids should just pick what they like.

But I mostly dont see the issue with a mens section and a wonens section for clothes. The natural gravitation is still gonna largely be the same unless some large societal shift occurs.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

What is happening here

 

[Corronchilejano]

What valid points have ever come out of the MRA front?

1. Women that want to fuck over their ex-husbands for custody of their children usually get their way. They still have to pay alimony but sometimes can never see their children.
2. Men are also victims of domestic violence but have little to no support from shelters.
3. There's probably more, but I'm working.

I'm not saying any of these points validate the frankly misognistic attitude of most MRAs. I'm saying they do have some fair points.

 

[Alcotholic]

What valid points have ever come out of the MRA front?

You're talking about people that think a literal gender war is coming, and that rape should be legal.

I'm going to emphasize the word "certain" here.
Things they advocate change or more attention for are laws in child custody, circumcision, domestic abuse, education for boys, paternity fraud, and suicide.

Not necessarily a bad thing I think. I'm in support of these things as a male myself and for future children, wether it be my own or others.

How these views are handled in getting attention is a completely different matter.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

1. Women that want to fuck over their ex-husbands for custody of their children usually get their way. They still have to pay alimony but sometimes can never see their children.
2. Men are also victims of domestic violence but have little to no support from shelters.
3. There's probably more, but I'm working.

I'm not saying any of these points validate the frankly misognistic attitude of most MRAs. I'm saying they do have some fair points.

Yep. These are valid. The mistake MRAs make is thinking women have created these problems, or that they're political positions in a greater culture war, rather than just valid points. We're all still waiting for a men's movement that doesn't come with all the baggage of being anti-feminist.

The domestic violence issue reminds me of that Dave Chappelle joke about a rapist who only fucked dudes, and dudes would be so afraid of telling anyone about it that he'd get away with it. This isn't a problem women have created, it's something we've done to ourselves through our own culture. I wish MRAs would see that, but they're too preoccupied with calling the victims cucks or betas.

 

[Ms.Galaxy]

What valid points have ever come out of the MRA front?

You're talking about people that think a literal gender war is coming, and that rape should be legal.

One of the points I support is the serious issue of male rape victims. Society treats men like they can't be raped by women, sometimes even by other men, because "men always want sex". That said, I do not, nor will I ever, support MRA groups that actually think targeting feminist and women in general are the answer to their issues.

 

[DarkHeartedKill]

I really hate when people put a gender prefix to certain things. Like Girl Gamer, or Male Nurse. Who gives a shit about their gender, just call them a game or a nurse.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

What valid points have ever come out of the MRA front?

You're talking about people that think a literal gender war is coming, and that rape should be legal.

A lot of other people have already enumerated the points. I'll just say that it seems you're only familiar with the spin on this subject.

There are Men's and Father's rights advocates that aren't evil misogynists trying to make spouse abuse legal.

 

[BocoDragon]

A lot of other people have already enumerated the points. I'll just say that it seems you're only familiar with the spin on this subject.

There are Men's and Father's rights advocates that aren't evil misogynists trying to make spouse abuse legal.

Then they're not really part of what is considered MRA.

 

[ElTorro]

The latest silly term I've seen on Twitter is "Brogressive", apparently labeling a person who identifies as progressive, but does not act on it.

Don't ask me which camp invented it. I want no part in this silly online trench warfare, where categorizing people into friend and foe based on crude keyword detection trumps actual conversation.

 

[More Fun To Compute]

You should always question the language you use. Any neologism you hear and thoughtlessly pass on is using you more than you are using it. Everyone is guilty of this and often we all feel happy to go with the herd and use all sorts of bizarre faulty expressions as an alternative to having a brain.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

Then they're not really part of what is considered MRA.

Why not?

 

[border]

I think Social Justice Warrior was a fine term for people that are over-concerned and over-outraged about relatively minor issues, or trigger warnings:

"Why aren't there more Black Widow toys and merchandise?"
"It's offensive for the cafeteria to serve inuathentic tacos and sushi!"

The "SJW" phrase has been overused so much now though it's lost any kind of meaning and I'm left struggling for a proper word for these sorts of hashtag activist busybodies. "Tumblrina" is a decent choice, but I don't really like the sound of it since it's deliberately feminizing.

 

[Weiss]

Any valid points the MRA movement makes about social inequalities that disparage men are already covered by feminism, since that entire movement is about addressing gender inequality.

MRA, as a term, just means you don't want to be called a feminist.

 

[Crash Station]

I'd rather we just go back to "PC police". That has far more abrasive implications than someone fighting for social justice, which should be unarguably considered a good thing provided we don't get into some of the contradictory discussions that prop up (Such as LGBT and Islam).

 

[CenturionKei]

The latest silly term I've seen on Twitter is "Brogressive", apparently labeling a person who identifies as progressive, but does not act on it.

SJWs have a with us or against us mindset.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Outrage Culture is a close second in competition for most annoying term.

I think we can all agree that the most annoying term is something said by a certain group of people

I think Social Justice Warrior was a fine term for people that are over-concerned and over-outraged about relatively minor issues, or trigger warnings:

"Why aren't there more Black Widow toys and merchandise?"
"It's offensive for the cafeteria to serve inuathentic tacos and sushi!"

The "SJW" phrase has been overused so much now though it's lost any kind of meaning and I'm left struggling for a proper word for these sorts of hashtag activist busybodies. "Tumblrina" is a decent choice, but I don't really like the sound of it since it's deliberately feminizing.

Wait, what's wrong with being bothered that Black Widow is so poorly represented in marketing stuff? Not only is it pervasive across the industry (especially Disney - Black Widow, Gamora, Rey, etc.), almost every time it happens it is related to the idea that boys don't want to play with toys based on girls, or have girls represented in their t-shirt or whatever. Not only is this a problem as far as unbalancing an already imbalanced cast situation goes, it also assumes inherent dislike of girls and girl-related concepts among boys and adheres to that, removing, replacing, and/or reducing the presence of women in the material. Pandering of this nature is not good for anyone.

 

[FyreWulff]

There are Men's and Father's rights advocates that aren't evil misogynists trying to make spouse abuse legal.

Yeah, those are called feminists

 

[Sheentak]

Despise the new meaning of gross, like problematic it does not explain a thing and is a conversation ender, it's hard to reply to.

 

[Henkka]

What valid points have ever come out of the MRA front?

You're talking about people that think a literal gender war is coming, and that rape should be legal.

I think you're talking about the folks at sites like Return of Kings. Interestingly enough, they don't call themselves men's rights activists. If you just google "return of kings mra", you'll get articles by them like "5 Reasons I Am Not A Men’s Rights Activist".

I think there are valid issues that men face. Things like unfair custody rulings, suicide, and men falling behind in education. Some men's rights organizations actually focus on these real issues. But I'll agree that a lot of it is just complaining about feminism.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I like it. It's like a reverse dog whistle. You can draw some firm conclusions about anyone who uses that term.

QFT


Like honestly who's supposed to be offended by being called such, is there anything wrong advocating for Social Justice?

 

[Box of Kittens]

I like it. It's like a reverse dog whistle. You can draw some firm conclusions about anyone who uses that term.

It does have that going for it.

Otherwise, it's not so terrible in theory, but it sure is in practice. It wouldn't be bad to have a shorthand way of referring to the people that "SJW" ostensibly does, aside from the usual issues with labels being a cheap way to try and shut down debate and discussion. But since in practice it's used to attack anyone with socially progressive views and is very much in vogue with people who actually are explicitly bigoted. Its popularity within gamergate sure didn't help either.

 

[entremet]

Yeah, those are called feminists

Disagree because that's only an abstraction.

Actual advocacy is mostly for women's issues, which is fine and needed. Feminists groups have their hands full wilth women's issues that are still a huge obstacle today.

Too bad the well has been poisoned because real men's advocacy without the bigotry and rancor is needed

MRA don't really do any activism. They only fight feminists online.

 

[kirblar]

QFT


Like honestly who's supposed to be offended by being called such, is there anything wrong advocating for Social Justice?

It's an issue when you're using it not to help people, but to simply let you have an excuse to be an asshole.

 

[cubicle47b]

Then they're not really part of what is considered MRA.

At this point I'm not sure who is considered an MRA. Pick-up artists are apparently lumped in with them. Return of Kings is and their views are absolutely insane. ISIS? I don't know.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I think you're talking about the folks at sites like Return of Kings. Interestingly enough, they don't call themselves men's rights activists. If you just google "return of kings mra", you'll get articles by them like "5 Reasons I Am Not A Men’s Rights Activist".

I think there are valid issues that men face. Things like unfair custody rulings, suicide, and men falling behind in education. Some men's rights organizations actually focus on these real issues. But I'll agree that a lot of it is just complaining about feminism.

Another issue is that, like you said, a lot of it is complaining about these things in the context of feminism - ie "why do people care about women and not men?" or "women are causing X to happen to men", when stuff like unfair custody rulings is an unfortunate aspect of society that presumes the woman to be the primary caregiver or to be the best suited to raise a child, and thus the man should not have custody.

Disagree because that's only an abstraction.

Actual advocacy is mostly for women's issues, which is fine and needed. Feminists groups have their hands full wilth women's issues that are actually still a huge obstacle.

Too bad the well has been poisoned because real men's advocacy without the bigotry and rancor is needed

MRA don't really do any activism. They only fight feminists online.

I think that certain activism by feminists is an "all boats rise in a storm" situation. Like in a couple examples above, having boys play with toys depicting girls is ultimately a good thing for them, breaking the stereotype that women are caregivers and should be responsible for their children more than men is a good thing for men.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

SJWs have a with us or against us mindset.

Hey we found one.

Unless you're being sarcastic, do you see you're applying a "with us or against us" mindset to people you just labeled as being part of a group? This has been something I've noticed with people who talk to me in this way, where suddenly I'm being assigned a side in some culture war I'm not a part of. It's just easier for the assignee to process the world that way. It has nothing to do with me. I've got plenty of opinions where I agree and disagree with certain groups, but I just choose to respond on GAF to certain topics that are more fun and enlightening to discuss than other shit I'm into, like co-op games or sports.

 

[Morrigan Stark]

this is a pretty sad way to go

you've been here 10 years and you can't just stop posting? you need to be permanently banned? lol

Some people really pick odd hills to die on.

Funny, I criticize religion all the time and no one thinks I'm a racist (as far as I know xD). Someone's got a persecution complex, lol...

Yep. These are valid. The mistake MRAs make is thinking women have created these problems, or that they're political positions in a greater culture war, rather than just valid points. We're all still waiting for a men's movement that doesn't come with all the baggage of being anti-feminist.

The domestic violence issue reminds me of that Dave Chappelle joke about a rapist who only fucked dudes, and dudes would be so afraid of telling anyone about it that he'd get away with it. This isn't a problem women have created, it's something we've done to ourselves through our own culture. I wish MRAs would see that, but they're too preoccupied with calling the victims cucks or betas.

So much this. Hell a typical MRA would probably call a male victim of domestic abuse a "beta" for "letting a woman dominate him like that" or something.

 

[The Wall]

If I understand the term correctly and the type of people it applies to- there is a fine line between fighting for something that matters and weakening an already abused, used or oppressed group. If you aren't actually standing alongside these people you're "fighting" for, and helping them in real life, all the fighting is only distracting from doing things that could actually help lift up these sorts of people.

White knighting can be so damaging when the people trying to help lose sight of whether they are doing it for themselves or the people they want to help.

 

[Vampire On Titus]

Yeah, those are called feminists

Why does it matter what they chose to call themselves?

Also, not necessarily. Maybe they don't believe in patriarchy theory, male gaze, rape culture or any other theories in prominent feminist literature. This can all be true and lead them to not identify as feminists but still advocate for their pet causes.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

It's an issue when you're using it not to help people, but to simply let you have an excuse to be an asshole.

Elaborate please.

 

[Liu Kang Baking A Pie]

Like honestly who's supposed to be offended by being called such, is there anything wrong advocating for Social Justice?

To me, it really does seem to come from the same mindset of a person who would be upset if someone called them gay. Most of us would not give a shit at all, but to a certain person, being called gay or SJW would ruin them.

 

[FyreWulff]

Disagree because that's only an abstraction.

Actual advocacy is mostly for women's issues, which is fine and needed. Feminists groups have their hands full will womanly issues that are actually still a huge obstacle.

Too bad the well has been poisoned because real men's advocacy without the bigotry and rancor is needed

MRA don't really do any activism. They only fight feminists online.

Feminists want equality for women, which includes being on even ground in all relationships, personal or legal.

Also, a lot of the troubles men have in family court are because of toxic masculinity, laws written by old men. The idea that only the man can be a provider, the idea that men can't be affectionate and parenting to their kids, are rooted in laws written by men, raised in eras where toxic masculinity was EVEN MORE prevalent.

This is why I'm male and identify as feminist. The fight is still on; in the US alone, women are still considered defacto property of men and their husbands in many states.

Sidenote: everything that gives women more autonomy and power ONLY HELPS men as a natural result.

MRAs are more interested in the status quo remaining installed, and can only seem to talk about fighting women whenever a women's issue is brought up with "buwuddabout". Meanwhile, tons of threads go by on GAF and elsewhere on men being abused, and guess what, you never see self proclaimed MRAs fucking standing up for men there. It's always feminists.

 

[Fuchsdh]

Any valid points the MRA movement makes about social inequalities that disparage men are already covered by feminism, since that entire movement is about addressing gender inequality.

I hear this all the time, but I don't buy it. NOW doesn't have any major platform relating to issues that specifically men face. Even the National Partnership for Women & Families addresses men only in broad strokes: their work and family section talks about greater leave, but its images only discuss maternal leave. Men just aren't their focus (and I understand why, and don't really even think that's a bad thing.) But at some point I feel like this argument that "men's rights organizations shouldn't exist, feminism is for equal rights" is like saying "why's there an NAACP?"

If men don't feel like current women's organizations address their needs specifically, then it makes sense for them to form their own organizations. I wish them good luck though, as you have the mindset expressed that "men's rights" is just code for "women haters unite."

 

[entremet]

Another issue is that, like you said, a lot of it is complaining about these things in the context of feminism - ie "why do people care about women and not men?" or "women are causing X to happen to men", when stuff like unfair custody rulings is an unfortunate aspect of society that presumes the woman to be the primary caregiver or to be the best suited to raise a child, and thus the man should not have custody.



I think that certain activism by feminists is an "all boats rise in a storm" situation. Like in a couple examples above, having boys play with toys depicting girls is ultimately a good thing for them, breaking the stereotype that women are caregivers and should be responsible for their children more than men is a good thing for men.

Sure. I agree regarding attitudes and the academic stuff.

But feminist groups do actual advocacy not just research and most of that advocacy is centered on woman's issues. And I'm totally fine with that. That's a territory that needs to exists.

But actually advocacy for men's issues needs to happen too and feminists aren't doing anything there. Not because they don't want, but because they have enough work with women's issues.

Real feminist progress didn't just happen on the academic side, but in real advocacy.