frankie_baby
Member
While certain related activities are illegal (brothels or on street soliciting) prostitution itself is perfectly legal in the UK
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Kano on the Phone
Member
How does it empower women?
By letting women make money off of their bodies in a legal and regulated environment. It's infinitely safer.
I feel like the biggest potential downside is that legalization may create a level of demand that will create the conditions for more human trafficking to occur to fulfill that demand.
And yes, legalization will give them legal recourse but the victims will usually not be able to speak English.
Again, this makes no sense. If prostitution isn't in the shadows, it makes it much harder for women to be trafficked, especially if there's regulation.
See my first post in the thread for the data. We accidentally did that in Rhode Island and got hard data.
I don't believe that's representative of the entire US, though. Compare Rhode Island income levels to those of urban Michigan.
If prostitution must be legal, the British model is best. A woman may choose to become a sex worker, but pimping and street prostitution are banned.
By letting women make money off of their bodies in a legal and regulated environment. It's infinitely safer.
Do you not agree that the legalization and normalization of prostitution would encourage objectification?
I feel like the biggest potential downside is that legalization may create a level of demand that will create the conditions for more human trafficking to occur to fulfill that demand.
And yes, legalization will give them legal recourse but the victims will usually not be able to speak English.
But with legalization comes regulation. No state or federal government is just going to decriminalize or legalize prostitution without setting up very specific guide lines and especially taxes to get a piece of that profit.
If you have proper oversight of an establishment or service, like a website that facilitates freelance prostitutes, how are they going to have illegal, underage and possibly sex slaves working for them with government officials coming and checking them out all the time, checking their records and books and so on.
Not only that but most people would rather go to a legitimate business than an illegitimate business, so the demand would most likely go down for trafficking victims because why would anyone want to get wrapped up in that, not to mention the health risks, when there would be plenty of legal and legitimate businesses to choose from? We've already seen it with weed in the areas that have medicinal and legal selling of it, all the weed dealers went broke because who would buy from them when they can get a quality product legally from a real store.
hydrophilic attack
Member
How would you guys feel about legislation like the Swedish, where being a sex worker is not illegal, but being a john is?
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
How would you guys feel about legislation like the Swedish, where being a sex worker is not illegal, but being a john is?
As a buyer I'd like some rights as well.
I never understood how female cops posing as sex workers is not entrapment legal wise?
Entrapment is only if a cop induces you to commit a crime you wouldn't otherwise have committed. So it is possible for a cop posing as a sex worker to commit entrapment--if, say, the cop came to you unsolicited or something. But if they stand on a corner that's a well-known pickup spot and the John approaches and proposes the deal, it's not entrapment.
Basically, if you ask a cop "hey can I buy some drugs" that's probably not entrapment; if a cop approaches you asks you "hey would you like to buy some drugs", that might be.
I'm not in law enforcement though.
I feel like the biggest potential downside is that legalization may create a level of demand that will create the conditions for more human trafficking to occur to fulfill that demand.
And yes, legalization will give them legal recourse but the victims will usually not be able to speak English.
Why wouldn't it also increase supply?
Sex work and alcohol aren't analogous because sex work has not recently been legal in the United States. People who have a habit of soliciting prostitutes won't be forced to change their ways by the law, as they're already criminals. Making sex work legal encourages more women to be imported, probably in very unsafe and illegal conditions. We will see many more women, many of them underage, being brought by the boatload to the United States by pimps who know that a handful of forged green cards will allow them to operate freely.
Personally, I believe that prostitution is a bad thing, and shouldn't be encouraged or allowed. It's much, much more objectifying and inherently misogynistic than pornography or stripping. Allowing sex to be bought like a hamburger would really contribute to the view that sex is something you deserve.
If we make it easier for trafficked women to seek help without fear of arrest or deportation, their rights and safety will be protected even if prostitution is illegal.
I'm asexual so I really lack a horse in this race but I feel the objectification and exploitation comes not from prostitution itself but from it's illegal nature. If you legalize it you empower the sex workers. They will be able to seek police help when required, pick their own customers, and be free of pimps. look at the set up in the areas of Nevada where it's currently legal.
There's also the small fact that it's not idled called the world oldest profession. It's an activity that can never be stamped out and we know that our attempts to are causing harm. I'm also not personally a fan of banning activities on moral grounds...
Do you believe that objectification and commodification are equivalent? (I do not.)Do you not agree that the legalization and normalization of prostitution would encourage objectification?
Also, income levels don't really play much of a part- the rates would likely just be cheaper in Michigan.
By letting women make money off of their bodies in a legal and regulated environment. It's infinitely safer.
It's not as simple as that. That's like saying strippers or porn stars are empowered because, well, they can make monye off their body in a legal and regulated environment. However, they're still at the mercy of men's desires. Strippers and porn actresses rarely get a say in what type of act or movie they can be in as it's not targeted for them or what they want.
You're not realizing that a large part of these problems are a result of prostitution being prohibited. Legalization means brothels with regular health inspections. It means mandatory contraception. It means STD tests. It means minimum wage. It means prostitutes are able to go to authorities in the case of abuse without fear of being arrested. All of these things improve the lives of all involved.I could support prostitution being legalized in very limited, regulated forms, but the lives of most prostitutes (even if they aren't trafficked) seem so awful that I could never vote to legalize with a good conscience. I don't want my government to endorse an industry that toxic.
Unless pimps, street prostitution, trafficking, and sex worker abuse are illegal and prevented, I can't support the normalization of sex work.
But with legalization comes regulation. No state or federal government is just going to decriminalize or legalize prostitution without setting up very specific guide lines and especially taxes to get a piece of that profit.
If you have proper oversight of an establishment or service, like a website that facilitates freelance prostitutes, how are they going to have illegal, underage and possibly sex slaves working for them with government officials coming and checking them out all the time, checking their records and books and so on.
Not only that but most people would rather go to a legitimate business than an illegitimate business, so the demand would most likely go down for trafficking victims because why would anyone want to get wrapped up in that when there would be plenty of legal and legitimate businesses to choose from?
Regulation and laws is enough for the black market to continue like we see in the illegal reselling of legal guns, drugs, etc.
An illegitimate business can have illegitimate sex and keep your name out of the paper trail while being cheaper too
But I am all for decriminalization of sex work, however it probably will increase the black market as well (but I'm not basing this off any studies so take it with a grain of salt).
Kano on the Phone
Member
No. Sex workers are making a choice to be objectified and turn it around as something they can own and make money on, so I see no problem there.Do you not agree that the legalization and normalization of prostitution would encourage objectification?
It's not as simple as that. That's like saying strippers or porn stars are empowered because, well, they can make monye off their body in a legal and regulated environment. However, they're still at the mercy of men's desires. Strippers and porn actresses rarely get a say in what type of act or movie they can be in as it's not targeted for them or what they want.
I feel like you don't understand what empowerment is. Sex work is a choice. A stripper or porn actress is making the choice to do what they do, how is that not empowering?
In Germany legalization has significantly increased competition and driven down the wages. You can get a very good looking young whore for peanuts as youth unemployment is high and people need food on the table. It is a buyers market, in the past you had to settle with older women unless you had money as in over 100 bucks but now the ones from Eastern European that have no life in their eyes are willing to perform for a minimum wage.
I oppose legalization.
I oppose legalization.
Do you believe that objectification and commodification are equivalent? (I do not.)
Also, income levels don't really play much of a part- the rates would likely just be cheaper in Michigan.
In prostitution, they go hand in hand. Men who pay money for sex will almost certainly view sex as the same as buying a new TV or renting a car. They forget that the person they pay to have sex with is a person as much as them, and this belief may permeate the way the view sex and women in other contexts.
Income levels certainly play a part. As Rhode Island is much richer than a burned-out Detroit neighborhood, a prostitute will likely live much more comfortably. You'll see far fewer women being essentially forced into sex work due to poverty and addiction.
No. Sex workers are making a choice to be objectified and turn it around as something they can own and make money on, so I see no problem there.
But how many sex workers choose to do sex work?
Everything in an open market-based capitalist economy is at the mercy of someone else's need or desire. The markets for catering to Men and Women's sexual desires aren't equivalent. This doesn't mean that then men are inherently wrong or "bad" for having them, or that the women are "wrong" for realizing that yes, there is inherent "value" in their appearance.It's not as simple as that. That's like saying strippers or porn stars are empowered because, well, they can make monye off their body in a legal and regulated environment. However, they're still at the mercy of men's desires. Strippers and porn actresses rarely get a say in what type of act or movie they can be in as it's not targeted for them or what they want.
Sure, but it's not like we can magically stop adults from having asshole point of views. But we can at least work at shunting those views in a less damaging direction. (See: the drop in rape rates.)In prostitution, they go hand in hand. Men who pay money for sex will almost certainly view sex as the same as buying a new TV or renting a car. They forget that the person they pay to have sex with is a person as much as them, and this belief may permeate the way the view sex and women in other contexts.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
In prostitution, they go hand in hand. Men who pay money for sex will almost certainly view sex as the same as buying a new TV or renting a car. They forget that the person they pay to have sex with is a person as much as them, and this belief may permeate the way the view sex and women in other contexts.
People already treat retail workers like trash though
It definitely has to be legalized. Sex work is not going to go away. Nor should it since adult persons should have the freedom to freely decide what to do with their bodies, as long as they are able to make rational decisions. Keeping it illegal only hurts the sex workers involved. Besides, it's ridiculous that sex work in the US actually is legal as long as somebody is pointing a camera at you to sell the footage afterwards, but once you do it privately it suddenly becomes a problem.
However, there should be regulations in place to protect the persons. For instance, here in Germany we passed a law last week to outlaw "flatrate sex". That's literally what it means. Some establishments sell as much sex as visitors want with as many women as they want for a fixed price, and the forces of the market were pushing these prices down to inhuman levels. This needs to be prevented.
However, there should be regulations in place to protect the persons. For instance, here in Germany we passed a law last week to outlaw "flatrate sex". That's literally what it means. Some establishments sell as much sex as visitors want with as many women as they want for a fixed price, and the forces of the market were pushing these prices down to inhuman levels. This needs to be prevented.
Kano on the Phone
Member
But how many sex workers choose to do sex work?
Legal sex work? All of them. At the very least, a higher percentage than in illegal sex work.
hodayathink
Member
I agree. People bring up the idea of Unionising too, but there's an interesting episode of (I think) The West Wing where a character suggests this, only to have the reply that women won't suddenly start being proud and open about being prostitutes just because they're legal, which makes organising unions (to exert political pressure etc) harder than in most industries. It's an interesting counter point.
Porn stars are about as open with their sex work as humanly possible, and they still can't form a union (and they've tried a couple times over the past 30 years).
they make bank though.
Won't if prostitution becomes legal, though. Like any situation there will be winners and losers if prostitution becomes legal in the United States and other western countries; from the evidence we've seen it appears victimization rates and sexual health are the upsides. From a commercial standpoint I don't see any way that economic opportunities wouldn't decrease for many if you make it more socially acceptable. Are there any studies like on the RI case that talk about demand? Because I feel like that would stay fairly steady if rules were relaxed, while supply would potentially skyrocket.
PsychoSoldier
Banned
Again, this makes no sense. If prostitution isn't in the shadows, it makes it much harder for women to be trafficked, especially if there's regulation.
In general, I agree. But even the Netherlands has been shown to have a significant issue with trafficking and I have to think that, depending on the relative demand and women willing to fulfill that demand, there is a possibility that trafficking will increase in order to meet that demand, on top of the illegal market for sex that will still exist even in the presence of a legal one.
I mean, my personal belief is that legalization is a good thing. I'm just saying that it is a possibility.
I feel like you don't understand what empowerment is. Sex work is a choice. A stripper or porn actress is making the choice to do what they do, how is that not empowering?
Giving them the illusion of choice isn't really a choice. Ever met a camgirl? My friend used to be one. If she didn't do what they specified they moved on to the next. It doesn't matter if they can choose when they're still considered disgusting and disposable enough.
Everything in an open market-based capitalist economy is at the mercy of someone else's need or desire. The markets for catering to Men and Women's sexual desires aren't equivalent. This doesn't mean that then men are inherently wrong or "bad" for having them.
When you do something that "empowers" you, you really have a choice in most of it. When you're just Prostitute #18 on the road or Internet waiting for John and he has his pick of the litter, it's not empowering. You sure can refuse Johns and be safer but you're still just numbers and a vagina. The desire still holds all the power.
In Germany legalization has significantly increased competition and driven down the wages. You can get a very good looking young whore for peanuts as youth unemployment is high and people need food on the table. It is a buyers market, in the past you had to settle with older women unless you had money as in over 100 bucks but now the ones that have no life in their eyes (over 25 year olds) are willing to perform for a minimum wage.
I oppose legalization.
Why do you think that keeping it illegal changes anything? Prostitution has always existed, and its illegal status just brings additional problems along with it. The answer isn't outlawing prosititution, it's regulating it through reasonable laws.
People already treat retail workers like trash though
And? Sex work isn't retail. Repeated trips to the Gap don't change your interactions with people. Men who solicit prostitutes, especially if they have little to no experience with sex work, might develop unhealthy and intensely misogynistic ideas about sex.
The desire ALWAYS holds all the power.When you do something that "empowers" you, you really have a choice in most of it. When you're just Prostitute #18 on the road or Internet waiting for John and he has his pick of the litter, it's not empowering. You sure can refuse Johns and be safer but you're still just numbers and a vagina. The desire still holds all the power.
You can try to make a living creating and selling Betamax tapes. It's unlikely to be successful. Demand is king.
Regulation and laws is enough for the black market to continue like we see in the illegal reselling of legal guns, drugs, etc.
An illegitimate business can have illegitimate sex and keep your name out of the paper trail while being cheaper too
But I am all for decriminalization of sex work, however it probably will increase the black market as well (but I'm not basing this off any studies so take it with a grain of salt).
This is true. However, given the choice, most people would prefer to avoid the black market. If your choices are between a regulated brothel or a random illegal prostitute for slightly less money, your average John will take the former for safety reasons.
The desire ALWAYS holds all the power.
You can try to make a living creating and selling Betamax tapes. It's unlikely to be successful. Demand is king.
Yes. So then how is it empowering?
It's not as simple as that. That's like saying strippers or porn stars are empowered because, well, they can make monye off their body in a legal and regulated environment. However, they're still at the mercy of men's desires. Strippers and porn actresses rarely get a say in what type of act or movie they can be in as it's not targeted for them or what they want.
Do you know what's definitely not empowering: telling a person what she can and can't do with her body under coercive threat of imprisonment. That's patronizing as all hell. Not all strippers are empowered by their work, but certainly some are. In any case, having more career options is better than having fewer.
I don't choose most of the projects I work on at my own job, but because I have this job I have opportunities to excel and to thrill and impress people. And then I go home with a paycheck which empowers me to pursue my other interests.
And? Sex work isn't retail. Repeated trips to the Gap don't change your interactions with people. Men who solicit prostitutes, especially if they have little to no experience with sex work, might develop unhealthy and intensely misogynistic ideas about sex.
Eh, this just sounds like the same argument that sometimes pops up against pornography, and I'm pretty sure it has no merit.
Sure, but it's not like we can magically stop adults from having asshole point of views. But we can at least work at shunting those views in a less damaging direction. (See: the drop in rape rates.)
We can't conclusively know that the legalization of sex work lowered rape rates. By many definitions, essentially all prostitutes are rape victims, as they usually don't want to have sex with their clients. Sex work is arguably rape by coercion, as prostitutes only consent to sex because of the promise of payment.
Kano on the Phone
Member
In general, I agree. But even the Netherlands has been shown to have a significant issue with trafficking and I have to think that, depending on the relative demand and women willing to fulfill that demand, there is a possibility that trafficking will increase in order to meet that demand, on top of the illegal market for sex that will still exist even in the presence of a legal one.
I mean, my personal belief is that legalization is a good thing. I'm just saying that it is a possibility.
I think it's implied that if it's legal, you have to still be mindful. No system is perfect, but it would be good to at least make it tougher for people to traffick women as sex workers.
Giving them the illusion of choice isn't really a choice. Ever met a camgirl? My friend used to be one. If she didn't do what they specified they moved on to the next. It doesn't matter if they can choose when they're still considered disgusting and disposable enough.
You're imposing your own sex negativity on this conversation. Nothing you said refutes that it's empowering, Any person at any job can be replaced, but she can still choose to do it or not do it. If we're just being anecdotal, then I know a few sex workers and they all enjoy their work and make good money from it.
D
Deleted member 47027
Unconfirmed Member
And? Sex work isn't retail. Repeated trips to the Gap don't change your interactions with people. Men who solicit prostitutes, especially if they have little to no experience with sex work, might develop unhealthy and intensely misogynistic ideas about sex.
Might, or do? There's been studies on this. Just look to the developed nations that have decriminalized it to see.
However, there should be regulations in place to protect the persons. For instance, here in Germany we passed a law last week to outlaw "flatrate sex". That's literally what it means. Some establishments sell as much sex as visitors want with as many women as they want for a fixed price, and the forces of the market were pushing these prices down to inhuman levels. This needs to be prevented.
Why? If we accept that prostitution is just another service that requires no education, and the market is flooded with service providers, then it should be the minimum wage if that's what the market dictates.
See I oppose legalization but I know people who use these services and if it is legal then who are you to stop from 18 year old girls for selling themselves for 10 euros per hour if that's the going rate...
Eh, this just sounds like the same argument that sometimes pops up against pornography, and I'm pretty sure it has no merit.
I think that too much porn can cause some people to develop unconsciously misogynistic or otherwise dangerous views about sex.
Because you recognize that the sex worker can choose to do it, or not to do it, and that it's a mutual transaction. SWERFs believe that women are "prostituted" and can't "actually" give consent.Yes. So then how is it empowering?
I've had the opportunity to do it. I chose not to. In legalizing it, you're recognizing that making the opposite choice is perfectly valid and acceptable.
No, that is not a standard definition of rape. It's a standard definition of rape by those who deny sex workers personal agency.We can't conclusively know that the legalization of sex work lowered rape rates. By many definitions, essentially all prostitutes are rape victims, as they usually don't want to have sex with their clients. Sex work is arguably rape by coercion, as prostitutes only consent to sex because of the promise of payment.
itsinmyveins
Gets to pilot the crappy patrol labors
You're imposing your own sex negativity on this conversation. Nothing you said refutes that it's empowering, Any person at any job can be replaced, but she can still choose to do it or not do it. If we're just being anecdotal, then I know a few sex workers and they all enjoy their work and make good money from it.
What you're essentially saying is that if someone does it, then it's their choice and it's empowering.
We can't conclusively know that the legalization of sex work lowered rape rates. By many definitions, essentially all prostitutes are rape victims, as they usually don't want to have sex with their clients. Sex work is arguably rape by coercion, as prostitutes only consent to sex because of the promise of payment.
Sure we can, because we can look at data from places where prostitution has been legalized. Kirblar posted an example on the first page, in fact.
And? Sex work isn't retail. Repeated trips to the Gap don't change your interactions with people. Men who solicit prostitutes, especially if they have little to no experience with sex work, might develop unhealthy and intensely misogynistic ideas about sex.
OR, going from zero to any experience with sex might demystify the whole thing, relieve some of the pressure to stop being a virgin, whatever: help people become better adjusted.
Why? If we accept that prostitution is just another service that requires no education, and the market is flooded with service providers, then it should be the minimum wage if that's what the market dictates.
That's ok, but minimum wage laws should be in place, and AFAIK that wouldn't be the case in the US, nor was it the case in Germany.
Do you know what's definitely not empowering: telling a person what she can and can't do with her body under coercive threat of imprisonment. That's patronizing as all hell. Not all strippers are empowered by their work, but certainly some are. In any case, having more career options is better than having fewer.
I don't choose most of the projects I work on at my own job, but because I have this job I have opportunities to excel and to thrill and impress people. And then I go home with a paycheck which empowers me to pursue my other interests.
I think it's implied that if it's legal, you have to still be mindful. No system is perfect, but it would be good to at least make it tougher for people to traffick women as sex workers.
You're imposing your own sex negativity on this conversation. Nothing you said refutes that it's empowering, Any person at any job can be replaced, but she can still choose to do it or not do it. If we're just being anecdotal, then I know a few sex workers and they all enjoy their work and make good money from it.
I'll post links later after work as GAF and a few other sites are the ones not blocked. To say in a legal manner it's empowering but in general? No. There's an illusion of empowerment. You can even Google it yourself--the porn and exotic dancing industry is full of it.
Kano on the Phone
Member
What you're essentially saying is that if someone does it, then it's their choice and it's empowering.
Well yeah, that's what empowerment is. I think Sketchbag thinks that being empowered is just making the correct moral decision (which is too ambiguous to even address). Someone can be empowered and still decide to take a load to the face on film or in private.
I'll post links later after work as GAF and a few other sites are the ones not blocked. To say in a legal manner it's empowering but in general? No. There's an illusion of empowerment. You can even Google it yourself--the porn and exotic dancing industry is full of it.
"Google it yourself" being the worst argument of all time aside, you're still not understanding what it means to be empowered.
Fudgepuppy
Banned
There's absolutely no credible reason to why it should be illegal to sell and buy sex.
Every problem there is with the profession, comes from the illegality of it. Decriminalize and it would be a safe industry people enter out of personal preference.
Every problem there is with the profession, comes from the illegality of it. Decriminalize and it would be a safe industry people enter out of personal preference.
OR, going from zero to any experience with sex might demystify the whole thing, relieve some of the pressure to stop being a virgin, whatever: help people become better adjusted.
It can make things worse. I know guys who've given up on women because they know they can't pull girls as hot as the ones they pay to bang. It's mind-warping.
I support legalized prostitution, but I don't think it does anything to ameliorate the image of sex workers to the greater public.
I'll post links later after work as GAF and a few other sites are the ones not blocked. To say in a legal manner it's empowering but in general? No. There's an illusion of empowerment. You can even Google it yourself--the porn and exotic dancing industry is full of it.
I mean, your claim is essentially "hey there's a seedy side to the sex trade". Which like, yeah duh obviously. In this way, it is a trade.
It can make things worse. I know guys who've given up on women because they know they can't pull girls as hot as the ones they pay to bang. It's mind-warping.
Sure. But the point is there's no essential take-away. Every person will incorporate the experience differently.
I'll post links later after work as GAF and a few other sites are the ones not blocked. To say in a legal manner it's empowering but in general? No. There's an illusion of empowerment. You can even Google it yourself--the porn and exotic dancing industry is full of it.
How is it not empowerment when they're making the decisions? Do you think a women who decides to conform to gender roles because she likes it isn't empowered? As long as someone isn't pushing it as something people must do, I don't see how it's looked down upon.
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